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Bad Guy Big Apple Herp

What I would expect from them is a little sympathy, an expression of concern for the animal of some sort. Since they have chosen not to display any care or concern for their animal or for me as a customer I have chosen to let people know.

I do not feel that they have the responsibility to refund the money, I do believe that they are legally liable for the animal and its passing (based on my conversation with the vet), thus my comments regarding small claims court.

They sold an animal that was clearly in bad shape, that is the real issue here. Regardless of whether it lived or died, they sold not one but two, very sickly boas. You all have seen the pictures of the replacement animal, decide for yourself. Is this animal one that you would ever expect to get from a reputable breeder?
 
Izoid said:
So....pictures of the snake, in terrible condition are not proof of anything? How about another members eyewitness account about my husbandry and the condition of the snake?

Do you want a copy of the vet bill showing what was performed? The vet bill does not show anything except what procedures were performed. Again, I will need a necropsy for an "official cause of death".
Click to expand...

They are proof that you got a snake that looked in terrible health. I have not questioned your husbandry. You did state that you wanted a refund and compensation for the bills, now you say that "it is not about the money". All Lucille was asking for was both sides of the story. You can't just give a bunch of statements, hint that you have or will have proof, then get indignant when someone asks for it. You may very well be correct and Big Apple may be at fault, but it is also about how you handle yourself. Tell it straight, and do not contradict yourself, you will be fine.
 
I only asked for money after they sent me the email that I posted earlier. They really have a care less attitude about their animals. If you read my email you will see that I left it up to them to propose what they thought was fair. I was offended by the lack of concern in their response and that is why I asked for the refund.

I never meant to insinuate that I had proof as all I have is a $230 vet receipt. What I have said is what my vet told me. It is the truth and you can choose to believe it or not. Again, look at the pictures.

I posted this issue 2 months ago on another site and got great feedback on how to care for her. I am not making any of this up and I would direct you to the photos and the eyewitness account of the snake.
 
What I think is being asked for when "vet records" are mentioned, are the actual medical records...like, the notes that the doctor made regarding the animal, and anything that was said to the owner, recommendations that were made, etc. All that stuff is supposed to be kept on file and legally you have the right to have copies of those records, and it is illegal for any vet clinic to decline to give them to you.

That being said, is it possible for you to ask for the medical record of this animal to provide proof of this veterinarians opinion that it was possibly a congenital defect?
 
JordanAng420 said:
What I think is being asked for when "vet records" are mentioned, are the actual medical records...like, the notes that the doctor made regarding the animal, and anything that was said to the owner, recommendations that were made, etc. All that stuff is supposed to be kept on file and legally you have the right to have copies of those records, and it is illegal for any vet clinic to decline to give them to you.

That being said, is it possible for you to ask for the medical record of this animal to provide proof of this veterinarians opinion that it was possibly a congenital defect?
Click to expand...

That is helpful information, thank you. I went to the yesterday, Saturday and found the animal dead this morning, Sunday. I will swing by his office this week and ask for that information.

This all happened over the past 24 hours so please forgive me for not having everything ready to post here. I work on getting it.
 
You are very welcome. Also, if you haven't already put him in the freezer, go ahead and put him in the fridge. The freezer compromises the results of the necropsy. Good luck, looking foreward to seeing that patient's medical file.
 
I don't see why Lucille had to assume you only kept the snake to "hedge your bets"...but beyond that assumption, she has a valid point that Big Apple does not continue to hold an obligation to that animal after you CHOOSE to keep it and decline the refund.

I do believe your motives were in the best interest of the animal. And I believe you are well within your rights to share your full experience here so that others can make a choice about buying live animals from Big Apple based on what they may read here. Personally, I've only bought dry goods from them, and had excellent service. But the same is often said of LLL...excellent products, but don't buy live animals for shipment. It's worth knowing if someone has this kind of experience with Big Apple.

But you are wrong to demand any sort of compensation at this stage of the game. Sorry. I commend you for giving the animal the best care you could...it was a risk you chose to accept when you kept it.
 
JudyC said:
I don't see why Lucille had to assume you only kept the snake to "hedge your bets"...but beyond that assumption, she has a valid point that Big Apple does not continue to hold an obligation to that animal after you CHOOSE to keep it and decline the refund.

I do believe your motives were in the best interest of the animal. And I believe you are well within your rights to share your full experience here so that others can make a choice about buying live animals from Big Apple based on what they may read here. Personally, I've only bought dry goods from them, and had excellent service. But the same is often said of LLL...excellent products, but don't buy live animals for shipment. It's worth knowing if someone has this kind of experience with Big Apple.

But you are wrong to demand any sort of compensation at this stage of the game. Sorry. I commend you for giving the animal the best care you could...it was a risk you chose to accept when you kept it.
Click to expand...

:shootfoot
 
JudyC said:
I don't see why Lucille had to assume you only kept the snake to "hedge your bets"...but beyond that assumption, she has a valid point that Big Apple does not continue to hold an obligation to that animal after you CHOOSE to keep it and decline the refund.

I do believe your motives were in the best interest of the animal. And I believe you are well within your rights to share your full experience here so that others can make a choice about buying live animals from Big Apple based on what they may read here. Personally, I've only bought dry goods from them, and had excellent service. But the same is often said of LLL...excellent products, but don't buy live animals for shipment. It's worth knowing if someone has this kind of experience with Big Apple.

But you are wrong to demand any sort of compensation at this stage of the game. Sorry. I commend you for giving the animal the best care you could...it was a risk you chose to accept when you kept it.
Click to expand...

Sorry..I meant this one lol...:iagree:
 
Michael

I believe the only content of your first post that drew negative comments were these two contradictory statements

he offered to refund me the purchase price of the animal if I shipped her back. This snake was so weal and sickly that, in my opinion, would not have survived the return trip. I told him this and kept the snake.
Click to expand...

and

I asked Big Apple to make this right as the vet felt it was congenital and that the snake was sick from the get go. There response was that since they had offered a refund before they would not be responsible for anything else. I have informed them that I would expect either a full refund or a store credit in the full purchase amount. If they do not agree I will take them to small claims court and request vet bill and necropsy cost in addition to the sales price.
Click to expand...


If you had simply stated your experience and used the thread as a warning about the quality of the animals you received I believe you would have gotten the support you expected. Once you refused the refund...you absolved them of any liability and took it all on yourself.


Very sorry about the animal but consider it a valuable lesson. Buy animals from those that produce them....not re-sellers.
 
Suncoast Herpetological said:
Michael

I believe the only content of your first post that drew negative comments were these two contradictory statements



and




If you had simply stated your experience and used the thread as a warning about the quality of the animals you received I believe you would have gotten the support you expected. Once you refused the refund...you absolved them of any liability and took it all on yourself.


Very sorry about the animal but consider it a valuable lesson. Buy animals from those that produce them....not re-sellers.
Click to expand...

I understand and agree with you. Thank you for the valuable feedback, it is appreciated.
 
First, I would thank you for posting the condition of the animals that were shipped to you in lousy shape, and small for their age from a particular seller(Big APple).

But.. when you go on to state how you think you are entitled to a refund of any sort after you turned down a refund offered to you, and the snake did not die until 2 months later, you're wrong. There's no reason you would be entitled to a refund after you refused one. Saying "it's not about the money" when you explicitly stated that you are seeking money is being false. If you were only concerned about the public knowing about the condition of the animals, you would not be threatening to go to small claims court and stating to both us and Big Apple that you want a refund.

From the picture you posted, the boa looks in terrible shape. If it was just dehydration, IMHO, you could have soaked the animal, gotten it hydrated and shipped it back. Would it still have died in their care later? Maybe so. But it wouldn't be on you, you would have your money back, and this whole issue wouldn't be posted here(unless you posted the conditions of the animals you recieved, which would have been fine).

Although proof isn't required, without it, people might just wonder why two snakes died with you, even with the picture of ONE snake who arrived dehydrated. Technically, a dehydrated and small animal can be rehydrated, and fed so it grows(if it's eating), and surviving for two months could mean it wasn't a cogenital condition or a shipping issue. Personally I do believe you in that there was some issue with the snake, but that's simply opinion, because there isn't any proof.

The vet told you cogenital defect, with no proof whatsoever about the snake having any issues with it's colon or anything else. He saw a snake that was in lousy shape, but he didn't do any testing on it to prove what was wrong? Correct? So he pulled this defect opinion out, which is basically a educated guess at this point. Is he a really experianced herp vet? Has he seen many cases of this defect? Or did he say in a offhand manner "Hey, it could be a birth defect."

Short version of all the rambling... you were right to post the condition of the snakes you were sold. You are wrong to post that you are entitled to any sort of refund 2 months after you refused to take a full refund.

Sorry that you had to deal with the poor little snake too. I'm sure that wasn't easy.
 
Just to kinda add to this - about 2 years ago I wont a contest on a forum. The ocntest was sponsored by BA offering a Albino Boa as the prize.
Well on teh day it was to be shipped i recived an e-mail delaying it claiming that my state requires vet bills of health on all animals prior to being shipped. I was informed that the shipping would be delayed nearly a week while they waited on a vet to check the animal an issue a clean bill of health. The BOH was basiclly the vets name, an a few boxes checked saying the animal outwardly looked healthy.
The following week I finally was shipped my lil boa. It appeared in good health an despite having the vet bill of health i went ahead an quarintined the animal.
It was a good thing I did because within 2 weeks the animal started star gazing, soon it couldn't tell which way was up or down. After being taken to my vet it was diagnosed with possibly having IBD - we didn't run the blood tests due to cost but all the symptoms were there.

I contacted the owner of the forum that I won the boa on an was informed despite sending pics an video that i was full of it an that there was no way BA would ship an animal like that an that there was no way they would have IBD in their animals.... The next day I was banned off the forum.

Just seeing this thread reminded me of that lil boa, I know I wont buy from them anything other then supplies.

An I know someone will ask why I did not contact them - because my deal with not with them the deal was between them an the owner of the forum since it was between them with the sponsorship.
Just thought I would mention it.

Celeste Foster
 
Big Apple got a Worm?

See how quick they defended/Passed the Dead snake off on the "Boa Manager".....Not a dead Snake but Two! We should chastize the "Boa Manager......How many of those snakes did he send out? They treat their
animals like all those dusty Boxes of stuff they send you. Bet we could wright our names all over that warehouse. Oh yeah he was not mistaken .....those most likely were "08"s' .......It's How they do it at the Apple.....
 
Wolfy-hound said:
First, I would thank you for posting the condition of the animals that were shipped to you in lousy shape, and small for their age from a particular seller(Big APple).

But.. when you go on to state how you think you are entitled to a refund of any sort after you turned down a refund offered to you, and the snake did not die until 2 months later, you're wrong. There's no reason you would be entitled to a refund after you refused one. Saying "it's not about the money" when you explicitly stated that you are seeking money is being false. If you were only concerned about the public knowing about the condition of the animals, you would not be threatening to go to small claims court and stating to both us and Big Apple that you want a refund.

From the picture you posted, the boa looks in terrible shape. If it was just dehydration, IMHO, you could have soaked the animal, gotten it hydrated and shipped it back. Would it still have died in their care later? Maybe so. But it wouldn't be on you, you would have your money back, and this whole issue wouldn't be posted here(unless you posted the conditions of the animals you recieved, which would have been fine).

Although proof isn't required, without it, people might just wonder why two snakes died with you, even with the picture of ONE snake who arrived dehydrated. Technically, a dehydrated and small animal can be rehydrated, and fed so it grows(if it's eating), and surviving for two months could mean it wasn't a cogenital condition or a shipping issue. Personally I do believe you in that there was some issue with the snake, but that's simply opinion, because there isn't any proof.

The vet told you cogenital defect, with no proof whatsoever about the snake having any issues with it's colon or anything else. He saw a snake that was in lousy shape, but he didn't do any testing on it to prove what was wrong? Correct? So he pulled this defect opinion out, which is basically a educated guess at this point. Is he a really experianced herp vet? Has he seen many cases of this defect? Or did he say in a offhand manner "Hey, it could be a birth defect."

Short version of all the rambling... you were right to post the condition of the snakes you were sold. You are wrong to post that you are entitled to any sort of refund 2 months after you refused to take a full refund.

Sorry that you had to deal with the poor little snake too. I'm sure that wasn't easy.
Click to expand...

I will once again agree that I am not entitled to the refund. I was not originally asking for a refund from them but after their complete lack of concern over this I got angry and asked for one. That was certainly a mistake on my part that was driven by anger over their response to me.

The animal was not just dehydrated. I have soaked and soaked and soaked this animal. The vet administered subcutaneous hydration. All of this was to no effect. The animal was not metabolizing anything. It ate on a regular basis but continued to look lousy, it did not thrive.

The vet made his comments after looking at the x ray he took. He stated that the food it was eating was not being processed and was rotting in her system. He felt that her constantly lying on a heat source pointed to her lack of metabolism.

Please be aware of the type of animal that Big Apple shipped to me. It really was in no condition to be sold.
 
I still think the OP deserves a little more commendation for caring about the snake's well being over money. What did he have to gain? If the snake lived he would have spent far more than a customer who received a snake with no health issues. Also, if he can prove it, he also found out that the snake was doomed to death from the get go, which provides evidence against BAH that wasn't in play before. I do not think BAH is 'obligated' to do anything about this, but I still think it would be the right thing to do. Ask yourselves, is it right of the company to make the customer choose between no refund, or torturing the animal by putting it through the stress of shipping in awful condition? I don't think that's right, and dealings like this should not be promoted. No wonder so many people are against the pet trade. Due to this situation, the snake is not receiving the proper treatment; the customer cannot choose what's best for the snake and get a refund at the same time, something for the customer to have on their conscience if they choose the money. These are living animals. I see the OP's concern.
 
I only buy supplies from BA, I have never purchased a live animal from them, but I have heard from numerous friends in the past not to do so. When they offer A+ "pastel" hypos, they should be that, especially at the price they sell them at. They will never get my live animal business.
 
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