Bad Guy Wendy Childs, Reptile Addictions

[ReptileAddictions]

As I posted earlier- proof has been provided, as to who the buyers are, what they bought, and what they said.

Whats with the one man firing squad Utta? Are you doing this for her?????

See how ridiculous that sounds. No one is doing anything for me. I made $3200 in frog sales. Do you think a $20 profit for mans creek verses blue jeans is really a factor????

The Blue Jean parents are at my house. ANYONE is welcome to come over and disprove their validity.

The buyer of the frogs is not claiming they are not blue jeans, he is happy with his frogs. Case closed.

 

[Utta]

No, if I was doing this for her, I would have started this thread. And used her proof etc. Honestly, im just tired of giving the benefit of the doubt. And if I start a thread from the top I don't stop. (Read up on the ed clark threads etc) so no. Im not doing this for her. But I did advise her how to proceed.

 

[ReptileAddictions]

The benefit of doubt????

What? This is not a legitimate claim. There is no unhappy buyer here.

No comment about the text though I see...........well I will have to leave this in the capable hands of hhmoore and Kevin...................maybe youll give them the benefit of doubt.

 

[Utta]

The benefit of doubt????

What? This is not a legitimate claim. There is no unhappy buyer here.

No comment about the text though I see...........well I will have to leave this in the capable hands of hhmoore and Kevin...................maybe youll give them the benefit of doubt.

Benefit of the doubt indeed. It was a legitimate claim as your inital responces were suspect.

And I thought id "put the rifle down" but it appears you want me to continue? Honestly, I read threw the texts, and while it appears the person you were texting has lied to both parties, I don't know because they want to remain anon.

 

[Southern Wolf]

Tyler... I have requested photos of said text's... and I will verify if they are accurate. If they are... then yes... it looks like the buyer Indeed was lying and playing both sides of the fence. I wont be able to see these till very late tonight though.

 

[Dendro Dave]

Just another 2 cents from another DB member...

If the mobile pics I saw earlier in the thread are of the frogs in question they are almost certainly man creek or almirante even allowing for camera errors.

Its possible ReptileAddictions was fooled, or the person they got the frogs from themselves didn't know what they had...and ReptileAddictions passed them on as BJ's given that info. If so ok, things happen no big deal but they IMO should come out and say..."well it turns out these frogs probably aren't bj's nor should they be sold/bred as such...my bad, I apologize"...If the buyer then goes on to misrepresent the frogs then it is on them. 100 for mancreeks isn't a bad deal, but for BJ's that is the deal of a life time...I find it unlikely that anyone would willingly sell them that cheap if they truly believed they were BJ's but that is not proof in itself.

To be fair I have never seen BJ's, mancreek, or almirante in person...I have seen 100's of pics of each from various imports and others online. From good sources that likely got the identification right. I would not wager much money on a bet concerning whether or not a frog was a mancreek or almirante...they are just so similar and yet variable that there is a lot of margin for error without having locality and import data. On the other hand I am fairly confident in my ability to discern between them and BJ's...and I'd wager a small fortune that these are not BJ's given the pics...the coloration is classic man creek(again, even allowing for minor camera errors).

Without accurate records and testimony that can be trusted and used to trace these frogs back to their origins its impossible to be 100% sure they aren't bj's given how variable frogs can sometimes be even within a morph...but that being said none of the frogs look much like bj's...sure its possible you get an odd frog here and there but 2 or 3 in one clutch? Much more unlikely...add into that the price they were selling for and how uncommon bj's are, and then the look of the frogs themselves and it becomes extremely unlikely these are bj's.

I would love to see pics of the parents, and get any info that proves or suggest that these frogs were in fact offspring from those parent frogs pictured (if we ever get the pics). It would be easy to just grab pics of adult bj's and claim these were offspring of them, we need some kinda evidence to back up that claim which I'm not sure is possible.

I can understand a buyer wanting to believe they had real BJ's but in this case that is highly unlikely and if that buyer attempts to sell these or their offspring as BJ's later they will be doing a disservice to themselves and the entire hobby. I'm glad the buyer is happy but that doesn't mean this whole transaction hasn't caused frogs of questionable origin to enter the hobby and create the possibility that they will be mixed with other morphs making it even harder for anyone to be sure they are really getting the frog they think they are. This is a classic example of why locality/import data and good records are so important to have.

IMO given how likely these frogs are to be mancreeks, it would be fine to breed them as such, especially to others that we don't have good data on...but these frogs should NOT be bred as bluejeans without better evidence for their origin. I was seriously question the ethics of anyone doing that and not be a customer of theirs.

It seems to me that the best fair course is to give ReptileAddictions a little benefit of the doubt if they are willing to admit these frogs are not likely bj's and encourage the buyer not to sell or breed them as such, and call it good.

Personally I find it likely given everything I've read in this thread that ReptileAddictions at least unknowingly misrepresented the frogs, but likely did so knowingly...and the buyer has either also misrepresented the frogs, been fooled or so badly wants to believe or be able to say they have bj's even when they likely don't they are willing to go along with the idea.

I would also add that if you don't have the experience to accurately identify the animal you are buying or selling it is irresponsible of you to engage in that transaction. Don't just trust the source of the animal that it is the animal they say it is...you should know enough to make a reasonable determination on your own. Even after 6+ years in this hobby and not seeing many morphs or species in person every time I've been willing to go out on a limb and venture a guess I've almost always been able to accurately identify an animal. When I haven't been fairly confident I usually keep my mouth shut, and I definitely wouldn't rely solely on myself to make a determination during a transaction for that animal. I wouldn't even buy it unless the source had such a stellar reputation that the idea they could be wrong or misleading me was almost inconceivable...even then buying might be slightly irresponsible on my part.

Anyways I have had zero to little interaction with any of the parties involved, I simply offer this post as an objective opinion from an outsider. I have no agenda other then to see the integrity of the hobby and the frogs in it maintained. I would be very sad to see these sold or bred as BJ's without more evidence and more reliable testimony.

Dendro Dave (this is my DB name also, written the same exact way)

 

[Jadenkisses]

I have no agenda other then to see the integrity of the hobby and the frogs in it maintained. I would be very sad to see these sold or bred as BJ's without more evidence and more reliable testimony.

Thank you Dave - this is the exact reason I posted this.

 

[Alex G]

Regardless of the validity of the animals, the buyer seems to have expressed according to those texts that they did feel uncomfortable by you confronting them, Jade... BOI investigation aside I feel that was out of line and extremely rude, and furthermore you said in another post that the buyer in question denied having bought those animals, but the PM's YOU pasted show no sign of that person saying such. I don't deny that if the frog people say they are not the morph/locality Wendy says they are, it's entirely possible that they aren't. But you've also lied here, and you need to own up to that. Do you have a personal grudge against Wendy? She's made multiple posts that seem to imply that you do. This makes me leery of taking your information with validity.

 

[Jadenkisses]

Regardless of the validity of the animals, the buyer seems to have expressed according to those texts that they did feel uncomfortable by you confronting them, Jade... BOI investigation aside I feel that was out of line and extremely rude, and furthermore you said in another post that the buyer in question denied having bought those animals, but the PM's YOU pasted show no sign of that person saying such. I don't deny that if the frog people say they are not the morph/locality Wendy says they are, it's entirely possible that they aren't. But you've also lied here, and you need to own up to that. Do you have a personal grudge against Wendy? She's made multiple posts that seem to imply that you do. This makes me leery of taking your information with validity.

I think you are confused: I spoke to one buyer - legion - he did not purchase the pumillos in question, he purchased something else. It is Wendy who says the other buyer bought the "blue jeans" and were happy with them. I did not speak to that other person. The one buyer that I spoke with - legion- told me himself and posted here that he did not feel harrassed by me. What was expressed in the texts is a lie - because I did not contact anyone but legion, and they have no emails or PMs from me, because there aren't any. Can you please tell me exactly what have I have lied here about? I will be glad to own up to it if you can point out where I lied about something.
And I do not have a "personal grudge" against Wendy - I don't even know her. Like I said before - the only reason I posted this is because I want to protect the integrity of the dart frog hobby, the species and the hobbiest. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Alex G]

I think you are confused: I spoke to one buyer - legion - he did not purchase the pumillos in question, he purchased something else. It is Wendy who says the other buyer bought the "blue jeans" and were happy with them. I did not speak to that other person. The one buyer that I spoke with - legion- told me himself and posted here that he did not feel harrassed by me. What was expressed in the texts is a lie - because I did not contact anyone but legion, and they have no emails or PMs from me, because there aren't any. Can you please tell me exactly what have I have lied here about? I will be glad to own up to it if you can point out where I lied about something.
And I do not have a "personal grudge" against Wendy - I don't even know her. Like I said before - the only reason I posted this is because I want to protect the integrity of the dart frog hobby, the species and the hobbiest. Nothing more, nothing less.

It would seem based on logic that the person in the texts IS legion... and if they are to be trusted...

From XXXXXXXXXat Sep 8, 2010 6:53 :
Just opened them up! Everyone appears to be alive and well! I'll let you know more as I unpack and set them up! Which will take a while! Btw-idk what that girls problem was but these are 100% true blue jeans

From XXXXXXXXX at Sep 7, 2010 19:16 :
I told her I Just bought a few things...she doesn't need to know anything specific about our deal.

 

[Alex G]

Furthermore, even though it's just an opinion, I'd like to add that my IMMEDIATE impression upon reading your copy and pasted PM's to legion was that they were just being polite in responding to you, and didn't really want to offer an opinion on the situation for or against anyone. This was even before the texts were brought to light and I found my guess to be correct based on legion himself posting:

I definitely don't want to get in the middle of this (although it seems i'm being dragged there..) but I will just insert my .02 and leave it at that!

as well as

I appreciate Jade's enthusiasm to get to the bottom of this issue (I was not really looking to be involved-but no big deal) but I believe Wendy was just trying to protect her customers-again another effort displaying her passion as a seller.

Note that he's careful not to take any particular side on this issue.

You could argue that the texts are faked and illegitimate but it would take a little bit of time to put reasonable timestamps on each one. One could argue the same amount of time could have been put into, say, forging PM's. Now you will say, "but I can post screenshots of them!" Of course you can. And Wendy, apparently, can take pictures of the texts received. Obviously she can't throw them out to just anyone because they contain the personal phone number of a customer she's already said she's forever alienated to defend herself from these allegations. However Kevin has already stated she sent photos to him to judge as real or faked, which he'll get back to later. So I guess it all comes down to Kevin.

 

[Jadenkisses]

You still didn't answer me as to what I have lied about, but as for "if the buyer is to be trusted, refer to Kevin's post:

Tyler... I have requested photos of said text's... and I will verify if they are accurate. If they are... then yes... it looks like the buyer Indeed was lying and playing both sides of the fence. I wont be able to see these till very late tonight though.

And if the texts are not accurate, then it is Wendy that lied about them.

 

[Alex G]

You still didn't answer me as to what I have lied about, but as for "if the buyer is to be trusted, refer to Kevin's post:



And if the texts are not accurate, then it is Wendy that lied about them.

I believe he meant that in response to Wendy's allegations that he was not being totally honest about his opinions with you and on here to avoid coming under attack in something he really shouldn't have been brought into...I'm sure Wendy and Josh both are thanking you for that... This seems perfectly reasonable to me. If two people were apparently bickering on the BOI and I bought from one of them and started receiving messages asking for me to go against the person I bought from, I'd probably take a step back and ask to be left out, too. After all, why should Josh's name be dragged through all the mud being slung in the BOI when he's done nothing but buy some animals? Animals he is apparently very satisfied with.

 

[Southern Wolf]

Ok... I have finished reviewing what Wendy has sent me. Per her request... I will not name the buyer from the text messages that she posted. If you feel you have gotta have that info you will just have to get it from her. It is not my place to give out that info.

Now onto some of what has been posted. Let me also say.... I wont be posting anything new... just touching on what has been posted vs what I have seen.

You have no respect for peoples privacy, I know you were messaging me because they complained to me about it.

True.... what I saw in the text's messages suggests this.

REFERENCE:
Could you do me a favor and remove your add.I've got some annoying person emailing me saying the blue jeans are man creeks and blah blah blah, I'd prefer to keep the sale private...thanks!"

And let me be clear- we want PROOF of the PMs. We want PROOF that the buyers claim Jade was HARASSING them.

Tyler.... I dont know if I would call it harrassing... but

REFERENCE:
Could you do me a favor and remove your add.I've got some annoying person emailing me saying the blue jeans are man creeks and blah blah blah, I'd prefer to keep the sale private...thanks!

This "jadenkisses" girl is rather annoying...I read the thread. I'd rather her and anyone else not know what I bought. So please keep me out of the convos..ect, thanks again!

The subject is that she claims- someone not in possession of the frogs, nor has seen them, that they are not blue jeans. I claim they are. I am asking her to prove they are not. She has no proof, no disgruntle buyer, nothing.

They are blue jeans. Until otherwise proven. Thats what this thread is about, asked, and answered.

Someone seems to be in possession of these frogs other than Wendy... and they ARE happy with them... at least from what I have seen.

REFRENCE:
Just opened them up! Everyone appears to be alive and well! I'll let you know more as I unpack and set them up! Which will take a while! Btw-idk what that girls problem was but these are 100% true blue jeans

I think you are confused: I spoke to one buyer - legion - he did not purchase the pumillos in question, he purchased something else. It is Wendy who says the other buyer bought the "blue jeans" and were happy with them. I did not speak to that other person. The one buyer that I spoke with - legion- told me himself and posted here that he did not feel harrassed by me. What was expressed in the texts is a lie - because I did not contact anyone but legion, and they have no emails or PMs from me, because there aren't any. Can you please tell me exactly what have I have lied here about? I will be glad to own up to it if you can point out where I lied about something.
And I do not have a "personal grudge" against Wendy - I don't even know her. Like I said before - the only reason I posted this is because I want to protect the integrity of the dart frog hobby, the species and the hobbiest. Nothing more, nothing less.

From what she sent me... the text's look legit. I requested more than just a copy/paste of words. I have no reason to believe the texts are not for real.

Furthermore, even though it's just an opinion, I'd like to add that my IMMEDIATE impression upon reading your copy and pasted PM's to legion was that they were just being polite in responding to you, and didn't really want to offer an opinion on the situation for or against anyone. This was even before the texts were brought to light and I found my guess to be correct based on legion himself posting:

as well as

Note that he's careful not to take any particular side on this issue.

You could argue that the texts are faked and illegitimate but it would take a little bit of time to put reasonable timestamps on each one. One could argue the same amount of time could have been put into, say, forging PM's. Now you will say, "but I can post screenshots of them!" Of course you can. And Wendy, apparently, can take pictures of the texts received. Obviously she can't throw them out to just anyone because they contain the personal phone number of a customer she's already said she's forever alienated to defend herself from these allegations. However Kevin has already stated she sent photos to him to judge as real or faked, which he'll get back to later. So I guess it all comes down to Kevin.

You could argue the text's are fake.... but I dont think you'd have a leg to stand on. I have no reason to believe they are faked. I requested more than just a copy/paste of words. In the amount of time that she sent them... and also did what I requested... I dont see her having time to make everything she sent me match if they were fake.

I would also like to say this. Her customer does not have to worry about what I saw.... I will not put their info out there. This much I will give them my word on. I think that may be one of the reasons why Wendy asked me to review this. Because of my reputation and how I carry myself here... she figured she could trust me... and she actually made me promise I wouldn't disclose their information. I gave her my word... and I stand behind my word.

In summary.... I truely believe the text messages that Wendy posted are for real and I also believe the Blue Jeans are in somone elses possession. The text she posted states from the buyer that they are 100% Blue Jeans and they are happy with them.

 

[Alex G]

Well I guess that settles that. Kevin just to clarify, I actually meant "You could argue that the texts are faked and illegitimate" as in "[Jadenkisses] could argue that the texts are faked and illegitimate", I believed they were real.

So either Jade is not being truthful when she says that she only contacted one customer, or I guessed the customer's identity correctly.

 

[Southern Wolf]

Jade could aruge if she wanted to.... but with what I saw... I believe them to be 100% real.

I'd also like to say... I didnt take on this request without giving it some deep thought, because I am basically putting my rep on the line with what I report. I honestly dont think Wendy had the time to forge what I asked for considering I also saw the time stamps.

 

[Magic Merlin]

And now I hope this ends the Wendy witch hunt.

 

[Utta]

I don't think they are forged either.

But I do believe that Jade's initall post was valid.

 

[Southern Wolf]

I don't think they are forged either.

But I do believe that Jade's initall post was valid.

I dont know squat about PDF species... but I do know that the ones in question were sold.

 

[Southern Wolf]

The text that she posted requesting the ad be removed looks to be valid and accurate because they were sold.