Selective breeding.

[rcpreis3]

This is a resonse to a comment someone else made in another thread:

People ask for the pics of the parents because they wanna know what nonmorph traits will be passed into the offspring and a better comparison to how the offspring will look when older. ur not gonna take a pic of one caucasin baby and compare to some unrelated caucasin guy and say thats how hes gonna look are u?

Or for a snake example if u have het clown balls, u would want to see the parent clown. I like the reduced pattern line of clowns, some like the extreme "alien head" clowns, where the "alien heads" look almost like hearts. Seeing pics of the parents will help u define what there offspring offspring may look like. It's called selective breeding.

Ive seen some really ugly pastels I wouldnt pay 10 dollars for, but if I see a average looking one and the parents were selectivly bred, good looking snakes (IMO), then someone already gave me a head start on making a BETTER looking pastel in my offspring. Hence why some of the same morphs can vary in prices by hundreds of dollars.

My view is, "Quality looking morphs are more important than just having a morph."

hmmm... thats my new signature!


Does anyone agree?

I think its important for the future of our industry, who wants to produce ugly animals? Who wants to buy ugly animals?

Granted, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but there are some morphs ive seen that are just uglier than sin and I wouldnt wanna own even if they were given to me, but if it needed a home Id give it one. (If knew how to properly care for the species) And chances are I wouldnt breed it unless I wanted to start a long term project to "clean it up."

JMHO, lemme know what u all think.

 

[rcpreis3]

Since I cant edit lemme rephrase;

"This is MY response to a comment someone else made in another thread."

And my original response ends at;

"hmmmm... thats my new signature!"

 

[hhmoore]

You definitely aren't alone - heck, when I was looking for an ivory, I was asking for pics of the parents...because I'm too picky about my animals to NOT know what is going into my projects.
Unfortunately, there has been a definite LACK of selective breeding in people's rush to produce morphs; and it is impacting the appearance of the animals. Brown pastels, spiders with so many spots that their base pattern is distorted...but people buy the damn things because they're cheap. Then they breed them & perpetuate the problem. Luckily, some people have better sense.

 

[rcpreis3]

Actually Harald I think ive read before that u as well like reduced pattern balls. I had this one I bet u would have died for! I'll see if I can scrounge up some old pics to PM u.

 

[deborahbroadus]

You definitely aren't alone - heck, when I was looking for an ivory, I was asking for pics of the parents...because I'm too picky about my animals to NOT know what is going into my projects.
Unfortunately, there has been a definite LACK of selective breeding in people's rush to produce morphs; and it is impacting the appearance of the animals. Brown pastels, spiders with so many spots that their base pattern is distorted...but people buy the damn things because they're cheap. Then they breed them & perpetuate the problem. Luckily, some people have better sense.

I agree...and the sad thing is, they are allowed to get away with it, instead of being TAUGHT.

I know what you mean about Spotty Spiders now. Before that's what I had been seeing, so of course, I thought that was what they were supposed to look like.

I recall asking you what the first morphs look like since these latter ones seem to be so far removed in color and pattern from the originals...and Oh yes! I had finally met my goal of producing Spiders with NO spots, soft, velvety patterns..definitely there is something to selective breeding.

 

[Shadera]

I'm all in for selective breeding. All too often it seems to come down to people just looking for the cheapest example of a morph for their collection when in reality a perfect example may only be a little more. And let's face it, those brown right out of the egg pastel babies use just as much in resources until they are large enough to breed as a selectively bred bright yellow beauty.

My personal morph pet peeve lately has been ghosts. Seems they too are going the way of the brown pastel. I'm hoarding nice ones to focus my single gene project on. (And Deb, I want that whole clutch if you breed that smoking guy you have this year!) But, I guess just about every morph out there could be or has been uglied up in the rush to just breed.

My motto is this: Just because people CAN breed these animals, it doesn't mean they SHOULD. We should be working to refine and better these animals, not jostling for puppy mill status.

I also think that in the rush to create animals with as many genes as possible, super nice single gene animals will become harder to find.

 

[rcpreis3]

I also think that in the rush to create animals with as many genes as possible, super nice single gene animals will become harder to find.

Not as long as im breeding!

I got some killer looking het clowns that have slightly reduced patterns Im expecting good things from!

And that Pastel OG Im getting from Ms. Wong looks amazing in the pic. Cant wait to see him when he gets here!

 

[Utta]

I'm all in for selective breeding. All too often it seems to come down to people just looking for the cheapest example of a morph for their collection when in reality a perfect example may only be a little more. And let's face it, those brown right out of the egg pastel babies use just as much in resources until they are large enough to breed as a selectively bred bright yellow beauty.

My personal morph pet peeve lately has been ghosts. Seems they too are going the way of the brown pastel. I'm hoarding nice ones to focus my single gene project on. (And Deb, I want that whole clutch if you breed that smoking guy you have this year!) But, I guess just about every morph out there could be or has been uglied up in the rush to just breed.

My motto is this: Just because people CAN breed these animals, it doesn't mean they SHOULD. We should be working to refine and better these animals, not jostling for puppy mill status.

I also think that in the rush to create animals with as many genes as possible, super nice single gene animals will become harder to find.

Then why are you the sable army?

Im definatly pro selective breeding. Off the top of my head, Rodney Boliach(sp)'s purples are proof of that. And if you're lucky, the selective bread animals are the same price of the "muddy" morphs. What I think it is, is people not looking/waiting long enough. They want to breed, and they want to breed NOW. So they do a quick sweep, (of the first few booths/ first few adds) and pick from there.

 

[Shadera]

Because I love the sables. The rest of the hobby hates them, but I'm grabbing up all the nice ones I can get my hands on. In a few years, I'll be able to roll around in a big pile of them. Muahaha!

 

[rcpreis3]

I go for quality all the time and Ive come out insanly good on a few deals! Problem is by the time I get some funds up to go for what I want, I see sumthin else I like and say "I gotta have it before Shadera sees this ad!"

 

[Utta]

Because I love the sables. The rest of the hobby hates them, but I'm grabbing up all the nice ones I can get my hands on. In a few years, I'll be able to roll around in a big pile of them. Muahaha!

Lol! I can't give you karma again! But +1 shadi

 

[rcpreis3]

hey whoever just gave me some karma can u PM me, Ive only got one on this thread!

And Im still just a lowly user and cant see who leaves me karma.

I=epic(fail)/3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406286208998628034825342117067982148086513282306647093844609550582231725359408128481117450284102701938521105559644622948954930381964428810975665933446128475648233786783165271201909145648566923460348610454326648213393607260249141273724587006606315588174881520920962829254091715364367892590360011330530548820466521384146951941511609...

 

[deborahbroadus]

I'm all in for selective breeding. All too often it seems to come down to people just looking for the cheapest example of a morph for their collection when in reality a perfect example may only be a little more. And let's face it, those brown right out of the egg pastel babies use just as much in resources until they are large enough to breed as a selectively bred bright yellow beauty.

My personal morph pet peeve lately has been ghosts. Seems they too are going the way of the brown pastel. I'm hoarding nice ones to focus my single gene project on. (And Deb, I want that whole clutch if you breed that smoking guy you have this year!) But, I guess just about every morph out there could be or has been uglied up in the rush to just breed.

My motto is this: Just because people CAN breed these animals, it doesn't mean they SHOULD. We should be working to refine and better these animals, not jostling for puppy mill status.

I also think that in the rush to create animals with as many genes as possible, super nice single gene animals will become harder to find.

I agree, the dollar is the motivation to breed rather than the love of the game!

*You saw a picture of him?! I'll post some more tonight (if he's not in shed). He's absolutely gorgeous!

 

[bad-one]

I agree, people really need to breed their morphs to better normals that compliment them, to enhance what makes the animals so beautiful!

I die a little inside when I see pics of a beautiful pastel male being allowed to lock up with a very dark normal (especially after seeing a bunch of crappy pastels lately)... *sniffle*

 

[Hlynn1975]

My motto is this: Just because people CAN breed these animals, it doesn't mean they SHOULD. We should be working to refine and better these animals, not jostling for puppy mill status.

I know you guys are talking about ball pythons but I'm going to shove my big butt in here and say I feel exactly this way about the Enigma morph Leopard Geckos.

I don't care how cool the color pattern is on these animals (and if you ask me, its not all that special anyway). These animals have a neurological defect. Even het enigmas have the enigma twitch to some degree. These are animals that should be CULLED not bred. Years ago when I was first breeding leos I had a couple hatchlings from a specific pair turn up with an odd twitch. I didn't raise them. I didn't sell them. I put them down and then I put their parents in the 'Do Not Breed' tanks.

WTF are people thinking when they think it is ok to perpetuate these genes? Sorry, guess I just answered my own question. They aren't thinking.

It just really chaps my ass to see things like this happen to any animal. It's bad enough when inferior colors are being sold but when obvious defects are being bred that just pisses me off.

Ok, sorry for the interruption. Back to your Ball Python discussion.

 

[rcpreis3]

Ok, sorry for the interruption. Back to your Ball Python discussion.

Theres no need for apology! In fact ur post is perfect for this thread.

The only reason I stated balls is because I work with them, But selective breeding should take place in all species.

ESPECIALLY IN HOMOSAPHIENS

 

[rabernet]

My entire collection was built on selectively breeding. If a normal female I breed does not yield the results that I want in coloration or effects (IE, insane blushing not passing down), then I won't be using her again in the same project. I had an AMAZING looking reduced patterned, light female that I bred my lemon pastel male to - and I was not happy with the results. They didn't live up to MY expectations.

I ended up giving her to another local breeder friend of mine who has been lusting after her since she was a baby. She'll put her into some other projects, and I needed to weed down my normals a bit any way.

This is her - she was my most anticipated clutch of lemons - I just KNEW her babies would be smoking....not so much :

And I sport this signature on other forums: You buy cheap; you get cheap. You buy quality; you get quality.
And it links to this:

http://www.oakworks.com/Oakworks-information/cheap-vrs-inexpensive.asp

So yes, I've always said that selective breeding is the future of ball pythons. When I decide to add a mutation to my collection, it can take me over a year to find the one that I want to add. Here are a few examples:

Cinnamon - I knew I wanted a black back and floaty patterns - I got them:

Lesser - I knew I wanted a reduced patterned male - black back preferably - I got him:

Pastel girl I wasn't even shopping for, but couldn't pass her up:

Pastel female I held back from my lemon male (and my lemon is 2nd generation from NERD, and Kevin looked at him and thinks he may even carry the fader gene - he particularly liked this girl).

Spider:

Enchi - this one has a sad ending - she was stolen from the breeder before she got shipped - she's my "standard" for all enchi's. She's actually the snake in my avatar:

 

[Utta]

Robin, maybe that normal is a ressive? shes stunning and i cant believe she didnt pass on that pattern to her babies. and sorry to hear about the enchi

 

[rabernet]

Robin, maybe that normal is a ressive? shes stunning and i cant believe she didnt pass on that pattern to her babies. and sorry to hear about the enchi

That's certainly possible, and maybe my friend will prove that out with her. I am glad that she went to someone who is a good friend, and not to someone that I don't know - so at least I can still follow up on her progress and still see her when I go over to visit!

Yeah, the enchi is my greatest sorrow that I've experienced. I still mourn her loss.

 

[rcpreis3]

Robin I had a male that looked just like ur normal female. And his babies looked like their mama, dark, and well... normal.

I intentionally bred him to a dark female, that way if he was dom or co-dom, id wouldnt have to ponder about it.

Ill be gettin him back very soon as well as one of the females I produced from him, So ill let u know if he turns out be recessive. That way ur friend will be more intrigued to prove hers out, if she isnt already.

Heres a crappy cell pic of the pair I had