Bad Guy BHB reptiles "het" didn't prove out, won't fix it

[DISCERN]

Good post Kelli!!!! I highly agree!

 

[brd7666]

Look, the OP really doesn't deserve jack. He already sold that snake and got paid for it, did he not? Why should he get anything else? BHB was going to be cool and offer him some compensation and it "wasn't enough" blah blah blah. He's not entitled to compensation for animals he COULD have produced!

If you buy a lottery ticket for $5.00 and you don't win, are you entitled to your $5.00 plus potential winnings? You use a computer for your business, you buy a computer from Dell, you get it and at some point while it is still under warranty it breaks. You send it back to be repaired and it takes one month to get it back from Dell... are you entitled to potential lost earnings ie. money you think you would have made by using your computer while it was out of commision? Come on, think!

The OP should, and more than likely will, get nothing. That is what he rightfully has coming to him. I am just amazed at how this thread is still going with all of the crap that's being dished out.

He should get this, he should get that, blah, blah, blah. So far he has gotten just what he deserves, and that is nothing.

He sold the snake to someone else. If the snake proves to be not for het, than the owner of the snake should get something, not the OP.

Maybe this thread will set a new Fauna record. That record being the largest amount of server space for nothing.

We can only hope.

 

[wyblep]

So what is stopping every scammer in our industry from selling hets and receiving a 5 year interest free loan? Anyone could go around selling a bunch of hets and refund everyone’s money after 5 years and there is no recourse besides the purchase price? Think about it.

 

[Mister Internet]

So let’s say the OP still had this snake and it was determined that the snake was not a het. He would receive his entire 1500.00 purchase price back and receive two honey bees one for each year it was bred. And Brian would receive the male spider supposed het back. That is what I think is fair and that is exactly what guarantee that I offer to all my customers buying hets from me.

By the way, I think your business is about to go through the roof... I know if *I* kept ball pythons (I don't), I'd be all over this. Not every breeder offers a way to get a free high-end morph every year just for saying a little white lie!

I'm kidding of course, but how on earth do you validate the claims of people that say it doesn't turn out? Their word? You're giving away high end snakes on people's WORD?

You're a more trusting man than I.

 

[Mister Internet]

So what is stopping every scammer in our industry from selling hets and receiving a 5 year interest free loan? Anyone could go around selling a bunch of hets and refund everyone’s money after 5 years and there is no recourse besides the purchase price? Think about it.

What's to stop customers from getting a free high-end morph from you every year just for *claiming* your het didn't prove out?

You can't make up for a potential scam by scamming yourself out of money, man... you sound like too good a guy to do that to yourself.

 

[Casey Hulse]

Now I hear a lot of people saying that the OP is not entitled to anything more then the original price of the animal IF and I say IF this animal is proven not to be a het. I think that is bull

So at this point in time, you agree that he is entitled to nothing since it has not been proven to not be a het.
Makes sense to me.

 

[Wraith]

What is a guarantee? I believe it is something offered by someone who doesn't know the genetic background of an animal, but has it on good faith that it is what they sell it as.

To me a "genetics guarantee" is this.. the breeder selling the snake is honestly (to the best of their ability) stating the genetics of the snake is believed to be as stated. The guarantee makes no actual promise that the genetics will ever prove out.

A 100% het... one or both of the parents obviously was a visual... doesn't necessarily mean that the baby inherited the necessary genes from the visual parent...just that the odds are extremely high that it has inherited the genes.

If I bought a 100% het and it didn't prove out, I would not be demanding compensation because the game didn't turn out the way I wanted. That would be like me going out and investing in the stock market on a "guaranteed" hot stock and losing it all later and then demanding the stock broker pay me back cause I took the risk in the first place when I invested in the stock market. .. the stock broker didn't make me buy the stock therefore not his fault I lost the money. If you take a risk you have to also be willing to take the loss as well.

Genetics with hets is ever a game of chance. If you don't want to lose then you shouldn't play the game and expect to be rewarded when you don't get a winning hand from the cards dealt to you. If you are going to play, then you accept the odds that you are given. 100% hets are obviously way better odds to play with than a 66%, 50%, or 25% hets, but even so 100% are still not perfect - not guaranteed to always win. But then again, low odds can still pay off too! I've actually had a couple 25% hets prove out when bred back to their 50% het parent... a pleasant surprise to say the least.

 

[DaveyFig]

Adrian, I agree with your definition. Mine was kind of a tongue in cheek response.
You see, one who is selling a het that they did not produce is doing exactly as I said (putting their faith in the person who did produce it). With that, often there is the need for the seller to guarantee that he thinks it is heterozygous.

The one who produced the animal doesn't have to say the words "I guarantee it". He knows it. If you know that the animal you sell is a het (thus the 100% so often seen), then why should there be a window left open for compensation?If I only owned 2 snakes (an albino and a normal) and they produced babies, I would sell the babies as 100% het. I am sorry, but if someone came back later and said I sold fake hets, the best I could do is offer them babies from the same pairing. Even that would only be after they proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the animals they got from me from a homozygous animal breed to a normal were not hets.

Also, not proving out a het is not the same as disproving a het.

 

[radiant dragons]

paul once again i agree with you .. So im confused tell me why we are paying more for a spider het hypo or even a pastel het hypo if we arent guaranteed that extra gene besides the base morph ? why waste time and money on paperwork ,pics ,etc for that het ?

 

[radiant dragons]

david paid 1500 for a spider HET HYPO . 1500 for that guaranteed het hypo gene and it doesnt seem to be there from the breedings between him and cliff

 

[WebSlave]

Sorry, I still (respectfully ;-) disagree. I don't think it works that way. It's as if each egg is a dice roll. You have a chance when each egg hatches that it will contain a visual. I don't understand how you came up with the visual x het giving you a 99% chance, and het x het breeding after a certain number of eggs you have a 99% chance. Maybe I am just not understanding you though, so please post formulas to show how you are coming to your conclusions.

As it was once explained to me a LONG LONG time ago, imagine that you flipped a coin 99 times, and each and every time it came up as being tails. Now on that 100th flip, what are the odds that it will finally be heads? Well, just the same as it was in the first 99 times you flipped that coin. 50 percent. No more, no less. The results of the first 99 flips has absolutely NO bearing whatsoever on the outcome of that 100th coin flip.

 

[DaveyFig]

Te paperwork isn't for the initial buyer. Obviously he is going on the breeders word, not some piece of paper. The breeder makes the paperwork, it isn't brought by the stork with the baby snake. The paperwork is for when the buyer sells it and either doesn't have the reputation of the breeder, hasn't proven the animal, or just as an added little tidbit to say "see, this is the same snake I bought as a het". This is all done for him to complete HIS guarantee, not the breeder's. Other guarantees could include pictures of the offspring of the animal and pictures of him breeding. None of it is proof, but helps ease the mind of the buyer that the seller may have what he is selling.

 

[wyblep]

Well first of all, my statement about if this animal in question is a het or not is totally irrelevant to what I think someone with a legitimate claim should get in compensation. I still feel that some additional breedings should be done. If this was without a doubt not a het animal then yes he should get more then the asking price in compensation.

But at the same time only one person should be able to file a claim with the original seller. whether it was the OP or cliff they would need to work that out. By rule I think Cliff should be the one with a valid claim, the OP got his compensation when he sold that animal to Cliff. There are a lot of variables that come into play here that make this a total mess.

Such as there is no paperwork, IE no photo id of the animal in question. That should have been made up from Brian so a lot of this could have been avoided. If you cant take a few minutes to make up a photo genetic guarantee on a $1500.00 animal then DO NOT SELL HETS. If this were to happen to me for example. I give paperwork with all my hets. I would ask that everything be documented if someone had a claim with one of my hets. I would ask for breeding pics of the second year breedings. the female on eggs, eggs hatching etc.

And let me also state I am not in the habit of giving away high end ball morphs. I have sold a lot of het animals and I have NEVER had a customer come back with an issue concerning the legitimacy of the genetics of any of my animals. All of my hets have proven out. And also let me also state my business and BHB business are very different. I have no employees. Its just me. If a mistake is made it would have to be made by me not an employee. I am very confident in my record keeping and my breeding practices. I pay close attention to what is breeding what. I always have sperm retention and other variables in the back of my mind. I’m not saying something like this could not happen to me but I do everything within my power to prevent a nightmare such as this.

My statements about what I feel is fair compensation for a het animal not proving out does not necessary pertain to this exact situation. If Brian and the OP came to the same conclusion and agreed that this animal was not a het which I thought by Brians emails that he was feeling there was a problem ,then that is when my compensation ideas would come into consideration.

I am not saying this is a het or not a het. I feel with the breedings that have taken place so far if I was in cliff or the OP shoes I would be a little concerned by the breeding results that’s all. But When Brian agreed to make compensation I feel he was in fact accepting that this animal was more then likely not a het. My problem is how Brian handled the situation by ignoring the OP completely by blowing him off time and time again. I am in this exact situation right now with a breeder who feels that he does not have to return phone calls or answer emails. It drives you crazy believe me. Paul Wyble @ Steel City Exotics

 

[DaveyFig]

Cliff's breeding results are what apparently brought Cliff, David, and perhaps Brian to the conclusion that the animal is question is not in het. If they all agree on that, it doesn't matter that there is still a chance that it is.
David said that he would compensate Cliff if Brian doesn't.Brian hasn't. If they all came to the conclusion based on Cliff's final clutch, then Cliff has been waiting for compensation just as long as David has. Cliff is not Brian's customer. David was paid for the snake, and Cliff knew that it might not be het. before he even paired his snakes up. Maybe Brian isn't paying David because so far, David is the only one who hasn't lost (not counting hypotheticals). If Brian pays David, then David has the money he paid for the snake and sold it for, as well as the babies it produced. Brian is then supposed to pay Cliff too? If David pay's Cliff for the animal that HE quaranteed was a het when he sold it, Brian might be a little bit quicker to pay David for the animal that David feels is not a het. If Cliff wants to keep the snake as Tom is saying, then I think he might have to eat any compensation he would have gotten, as David would get the animal back if he paid Cliff. Brian would then get the animal back when he paid David.

 

[jdshscja]

Sorry, I still (respectfully ;-) disagree. I don't think it works that way. It's as if each egg is a dice roll. You have a chance when each egg hatches that it will contain a visual. I don't understand how you came up with the visual x het giving you a 99% chance, and het x het breeding after a certain number of eggs you have a 99% chance. Maybe I am just not understanding you though, so please post formulas to show how you are coming to your conclusions.

Like I said, you are right when only looking at 1 egg at a time. Think of it like this. You roll a 4 sided dice. Now when you roll it once you have about a 25% chance of rolling a 1. However when you roll the dice 20 times you have a much higher chance of rolling a 1 at least once. A simplified formula would be like this 1-(3/4)^x where x = the number of dice rolls or eggs in this case. For a het x visual it would be 1-(2/4)^x. This is just probability, if you don't believe me there's not much else I can say other than speak to a statistics teacher. I just saw webslave's post before I submitted this and wanted to use his analogy quickly. The previous 99 flips of the coin do have no bearing on what the next single flip will do. But if I flip a coin once and you flip it 100 who do you think has a better chance of getting heads at least once?

To me a "genetics guarantee" is this.. the breeder selling the snake is honestly (to the best of their ability) stating the genetics of the snake is believed to be as stated. The guarantee makes no actual promise that the genetics will ever prove out.

Then it's a guarantee of nothing and is pointless to even mention if that's how it would be defined. People are correct that there is a chance all be it unbelievably small that some sort of error or mutation occurred where the product of a visual didn't become a het. I believe that a guarantee is specifically for this kind of freak event or the much more likely thing, a human error in labeling or some kind of accidental switch.

 

[jmurray30]

As it was once explained to me a LONG LONG time ago, imagine that you flipped a coin 99 times, and each and every time it came up as being tails. Now on that 100th flip, what are the odds that it will finally be heads? Well, just the same as it was in the first 99 times you flipped that coin. 50 percent. No more, no less. The results of the first 99 flips has absolutely NO bearing whatsoever on the outcome of that 100th coin flip.

While this technically is a true statement, it is also flawed and misleading. On the 100th flip you DO have exactly a 50/50 chance at flipping either heads or tails. But what are the odds that you could flip a coin 100 times and have it land on tails every single time? Basic probability tells us that it is 1/ 2^100 or if you are interested in an exact value:
1 out of 1,267,650,600,228,229,401,496,703,205,376.

 

[wyblep]

I would also like to take a minute to address all of these people with there purchase scenarios such as computers ,stocks, bonds etc. This is not a retail purchase in my opinion. We are not buying snakes as pets these are ultimately investments. I did not spend $20,000 on a snake this year to keep it as a pet, it was an investment.

Just as I feel the OP purchased this spider het hypo as a investment also. I also feel that the photo genetic guarantee or genetic guarantee everyone keeps talking about is sort of a insurance policy if you will just incase the animal you purchase does not prove out for some unknown reason.

I would like to give you a scenario of my own. I work closely with insurance companies and restoration companies on a daily basis. When a restaurant has a fire break out . It is up to the insurance company to hire a restoration company and get that restaurant back up to its full running condition as soon as possible.

And that insurance company is also responsible for any lost revenue that has incurred because of that fire. Every day that restaurant id down the insurance company is reliable for that loss of revenue. Maybe that was going to be a slow week maybe not. It doesn’t matter that’s why that policy is in place just as I feel that is why a guarantee of genetics is in place on a het animal.

I’m not saying if a het animal does not prove out you should be out a house and home to make it right to the purchaser. But I do feel that there has to be some sort of loss of revenue taken into consideration when working out the compensation plan. Paul Wyble Steel City Exotics

 

[Fedawg]

I agree with paul Wyble 100% . The people agreeing with BHB and taking his side are saying every possible bad possibility happend on Davids end and nothing went wrong on Brians. Highly unlikely.

Kelli , your totally out line using the lottery analogy.there is NO NO guarantee on anything in the lottery. Why would you get a genetic guarantee if its "just a gamble" ??? Why guarantee anything in paper if its "could have , would have and maybe" what is the point?

 

[snakechaarmer]

Look, the OP really doesn't deserve jack. He already sold that snake and got paid for it, did he not? Why should he get anything else? BHB was going to be cool and offer him some compensation and it "wasn't enough" blah blah blah. He's not entitled to compensation for animals he COULD have produced!

If you buy a lottery ticket for $5.00 and you don't win, are you entitled to your $5.00 plus potential winnings? You use a computer for your business, you buy a computer from Dell, you get it and at some point while it is still under warranty it breaks. You send it back to be repaired and it takes one month to get it back from Dell... are you entitled to potential lost earnings ie. money you think you would have made by using your computer while it was out of commision? Come on, think!

 

[Fedawg]

To correct my last post I meant "out of line".

Leigh and or Kellie , please explain to me the guarantee you have in the lottery? I have never heard of such thing.