Info Ashley Caspillo-SakaraGT4/Sakara *Possible Buyer Beware!*

[RachelSS]

It's definitely a possibility it was isolated and yes from what I have read pythons are affected more rapidly than boas but I haven't read anything about them being more susceptible. The only really significant thing I've seen is that boas can carry and not show while pythons can't.

Like I said before it's just better to be safe than sorry and inform your customers of the possibility that exposure might have happened. No one can remember exactly what happened a year ago, maybe she touched one of her boas after touching the BCL but not the pythons... It's really hard to say. I'm not accusing her of anything or claiming her animals are diseased I just think she should do what she has said she would do. Give it another year to be sure and warn customers of that possibility, though slim it may be, after all this time.

If Yvonne's animals were housed with hers she has the same responsibility even though her animals haven't shown any symptoms either.

Agreed 150%

 

[AddictedToBoas]

That's my opinion as well, and one expressed by some of the main researchers studying this disease.

There's a LOT of unknowns pertaining to IBD.
Including how long it can lie dormant in a collection, and exactly how it's transmitted.

I think you guys are expecting IBD would have just wiped out her pythons in a short period of time, and completely relying on the viability of her pythons to give her collection a complete bill of clean health.

I don't think it's responsible to rely on "well my Pythons are still alive so it wasn't IBD" as a proof positive.

She's lost 3 or 4 snakes in this past year's time. There are reports of snakes not showing ANY signs of IBD, being asymptomatic and lacking the presence of inclusion bodies in necropsies. These are discrepancies in her claim that she hasn't lost any more snakes. Personally, I think further testing should be done on ALL the snakes in the collection.. I think it should have been done IMMEDIATELY after the FIRST report.

I don't know for sure that she does or does not have IBD because SHE doesn't know without a shadow of a doubt if she does or doesn't have IBD.

What IS known is that there is Ashley's admission she had IBD and the necropsy to back it up followed with 3-4 dead snakes within the past year.

She stated she was NOT to sell the snakes she thought might be exposed, but her posts show she did before having any further testing and receiving a proven clean bill of health in the collection.

amercnwmn said it waaaay better than I did.

 

[RachelSS]

One of those boas died from an infection of the reproductive tract while it was gravid... maybe IBD related, maybe not. IBD suppresses the immune system.

I remember this thread, and I remember reading what she posted as the necropsy results, which was long before the BCL. This boas death had nothing to do with IBD.

 

[RachelSS]

My point being she doesn't KNOW it was an isolated incident, and didn't when she sold snakes.

That's all the point that's attempting to be made here.

You may drag in whomever you wish, but I think even a vet will agree that without testing the snakes in the collection, it can't be absolutely ruled out as "clean".
All we have is her word, which I think has proven itself to change.

Like I said, I completely understand and respect what you are saying, my point is, not one snake from two collections of 20+ snakes (Yvonne's collection is larger than Ashley's) and not one snake has died since the incident.

No, by no means, does it mean there isn't IBD lurking, or a potential. I just think it's more than likely IBD does not exist in either collection, but regardless, anyone purchasing from EITHER seller should quarantine any animals bought, regardless.

 

[AddictedToBoas]

I remember this thread, and I remember reading what she posted as the necropsy results, which was long before the BCL. This boas death had nothing to do with IBD.

If this is true then unless at some other point Yvonne's animals were in with Sakara's Yvonne is in the clear. As far as I know that was the only time Yvonne had given some of her snakes to Sakara for breeding and this is the incident that I think Sakara was referring to when she said Yvonne's animals were housed with hers.

 

[Adrya]

I'm going to come out in the open here and explain my situation here for a minute.

People most commonly seem to think that IBD ravages through collections quickly. In some cases it does, and in some cases it doesnt. From my own observations with my own snakes, quickly is not the case.

I had one of my favorite boas die in March 2009. She had a sudden severe case of pneumonia and stomatitis, and that is even what her necropsy/pathology results stated, but they also confirmed inclusion bodies (IBD) found in the liver and intestinal tissues tested.

I am not positive as to which snake was carrying the disease or how long it has been brewing, but even my strict quarantine protocols taking place in a building completely seperate from my reptile building was not enough to keep a snake from sneaking the disease into my collection, even after quarantining each new animal for over 6 months.

Since nearly two years ago, I have lost 6 snakes, two of which were voluntarily euthanized myself, and one of which I just lost this evening. I am still battling the disease.

First was the initial boa (died March 2009) that tested positive for IBD. Next was a subadult female ball python (died winter 2009-2010), my adult male blood python (died June 2010), another female boa (euthanized Oct. 2010), a male boa (euthanized Oct. 2010), and this evening (Dec. 1st) my female suriname boa. The male boa, even though he still ate and drank normally, began to severely become anorexic and lose all muscle mass over time since the death of the first initial boa. He had also developed a large tumor, which is also a side effect of IBD. He eventually became skin and bones like you wouldn't believe, and so I put him out of his misery. The same was for the other female boa (not the initial). She also became anorexic, and also had a slight odd head wobble.

In some of my other boas and a python currently, I will often see them stare straight up for long periods of time. They don't arch over their own bodies or flip over like in some more severe cases of IBD. My snakes will just stare up and will be completely unaware of my presence when I walk around the room or wave my arm at them. I will even bang my fist hard on the side of the enclosure a few times and they will be unresponsive, and it takes quite an effort to get their attention, even when opening the enclosure door. Sometimes they respond when I bang on the side of the enclosure, but much of the time it takes effort, or I even have to touch them to get them to snap out of the blank staring. Other than that, they act otherwise normal, get anxious when they smell food thawing, and eat normally.

I do not have the heart to euthanize my entire collection, so the entire reptile room is under it's own lockdown and strict quarantine. The only time snakes leave the building is if they either die or are euthanized, and any snakes that become physically/visuall ill are euthanized. I still have 5 pythons, but a couple are not the same as they were nearly two years ago, so I am keeping an eye on them. I don't even enter any of the snakes' enclosures except to clean water bowls, clean enclosures or feed them. A new pair of latex gloves are used inbetween each enclosure, for cleaning water bowls, cleaning enclosures, and feeding them. For smaller prey items I use disposable chop sticks, one new pair of chop sticks for every enclosure. For the larger prey items for the big snakes, I just use the clean pair of gloves. I use diluted bleach and Nolvasan out the ass for cleaning/disinfecting all tools and surfaces and for even washing my hands and arms with inbetween each enclosure.

In my case of IBD, it is not as severe as some other cases are. IBD has different strains that all work differently.

 

[RachelSS]

If this is true then unless at some other point Yvonne's animals were in with Sakara's Yvonne is in the clear. As far as I know that was the only time Yvonne had given some of her snakes to Sakara for breeding and this is the incident that I think Sakara was referring to when she said Yvonne's animals were housed with hers.

I don't think this snake was paired up with one of Yvonne's. I can't be 100% for sure. I know this snake was bred BEFORE Ashley purchased her and had retained the ova from the previous breeding. I think it was an infection that was brewing in the snakes reproductive system and was stimulated by another breeding attempt.

again, don't hold me to it, Ashley and/or Yvonne would need to verify.

 

[amercnwmn]

Like I said, I completely understand and respect what you are saying, my point is, not one snake from two collections of 20+ snakes (Yvonne's collection is larger than Ashley's) and not one snake has died since the incident.

Actually that's wrong, according to Ashley she lost 3 snakes AFTER the incident:

I've had 3 snakes, a burm, retic and a boa all tested after passing from unrelated causes tested by toxicology on brain, liver and intestine tissues and none had any issues... None of my snakes are sick or have any problems...

So what was the cause of death? Healthy snakes normally don't just drop dead. I already posted Dr. Jacobson's statement regarding the lack of inclusion bodies not always signifying the absence of IBD

No, by no means, does it mean there isn't IBD lurking, or a potential. I just think it's more than likely IBD does not exist in either collection, but regardless, anyone purchasing from EITHER seller should quarantine any animals bought, regardless.

Agreed, and that's why the thread is a "INFO" thread, so people who bother to research can see there MAY be a problem.

I know you would want to know if there was the slightest chance a potential purchase of yours COULD have a problem. Quarantine or not, after what I have read people like BWSmith and others experience even with their strict quarantine, I certainly wouldn't risk it.

 

[RachelSS]

Adrya, I am so sorry about the loss of your collection. I wish there was something I could say or do to help.

 

[RachelSS]

Actually that's wrong, according to Ashley she lost 3 snakes AFTER the incident:

So what was the cause of death? Healthy snakes normally don't just drop dead. I already posted Dr. Jacobson's statement regarding the lack of inclusion bodies not always signifying the absence of IBD



Agreed, and that's why the thread is a "INFO" thread, so people who bother to research can see there MAY be a problem.

I know you would want to know if there was the slightest chance a potential purchase of yours COULD have a problem. Quarantine or not, after what I have read people like BWSmith and others experience even with their strict quarantine, I certainly wouldn't risk it.

The thing that worries me with quarantine is that if there is even a CHANCE IBD can be airborne, quarantine in the same building is useless. Unless you can get from room A where the quarantine is, to room B, with showering, fresh clothes being brought to you, and being in a sterile environment, anyone who keeps boas or pythons can SERIOUSLY be screwed.

 

[amercnwmn]

If this is true then unless at some other point Yvonne's animals were in with Sakara's Yvonne is in the clear. As far as I know that was the only time Yvonne had given some of her snakes to Sakara for breeding and this is the incident that I think Sakara was referring to when she said Yvonne's animals were housed with hers.

Actually there were some photos or a video posted by Yvonne elsewhere that showed one of her snakes in one of Ashley's bins. How said snake got there is up for debate, as neither claims knowledge of how the snake managed to get in there. I don't know how long a snake has to be WITH another snake to even get exposed to anything, but at least ONE snake was in a bin with the other's.

 

[AddictedToBoas]

I don't think this snake was paired up with one of Yvonne's. I can't be 100% for sure. I know this snake was bred BEFORE Ashley purchased her and had retained the ova from the previous breeding. I think it was an infection that was brewing in the snakes reproductive system and was stimulated by another breeding attempt.

again, don't hold me to it, Ashley and/or Yvonne would need to verify.

Unless another boa died from breeding complications I believe this is the same instance but yes, neither me nor you can be sure. Ashley or Yvonne would have to verify times and all that wonderful stuff.

 

[AddictedToBoas]

Actually there were some photos or a video posted by Yvonne elsewhere that showed one of her snakes in one of Ashley's bins. How said snake got there is up for debate, as neither claims knowledge of how the snake managed to get in there. I don't know how long a snake has to be WITH another snake to even get exposed to anything, but at least ONE snake was in a bin with the other's.

I remember that picture, I'd actually forgotten about it to be honest. It hasn't been brought up in so long.

I'm so sorry about your collection Adrya... That has to be heartbreaking.

 

[amercnwmn]

The thing that worries me with quarantine is that if there is even a CHANCE IBD can be airborne, quarantine in the same building is useless. Unless you can get from room A where the quarantine is, to room B, with showering, fresh clothes being brought to you, and being in a sterile environment, anyone who keeps boas or pythons can SERIOUSLY be screwed.

Pretty much! Paramyxo is just as bad. Thought I had a round of that, but 2 necropsies cleared the collection. I watched a friend lose 100 snakes in a VERY short period of time, and another with 3 snakes in over a year. One of which was euthanized after the 2nd tested positive for paramyxo.

I had a separate building at the time, and for a year snakes were kept separated in 4 rooms..and that outside building.
I waited a year to add anything else into my collection and I did so VERY slowly. It was a pain in the butt.

I know Ashley buys snakes from many different sources, sellers, shows, and Craigslist. There's been proof that some of her snakes have not been quarantined properly, and who's to say the IBD didn't come from another snake that was an asymptomatic carrier?

 

[Adrya]

So waiting a year before selling/buying any more snakes is not enough to think your collection is clear from IBD.

And again with my snakes and their blank staring... some snakes do that normally sometimes, but they usually should respond immediately to anything you do or if you wave at them or something. So any body who has IBD in their collection and is completely unfamiliar with its symptoms and sees some of their snakes stare up and unresponsive may not see that as a problem. Especially if the rest of the time the snakes act, eat, drink, sleep, breathe normally, etc.

 

[SakaraGT4]

No, I agree, Ashley you are correct.. I hadn't even thought of that.

I just wanted to make sure it was seen... I had said it in the other thread, but I figured it would probably get missed, lol

Bring about proof that they were housed with your animals at the time of possible infection and something should and will be posted.

The pics of their snakes in my house and with my snakes is on my hard drive... As soon as I find it I will post pictures... I'm pretty sure that Yvonne, even though we are having a small issue right now, would not deny these facts...

Ashley, sounds like you are on the right track. From what I've read about this disease it can take quite a while for it to become apparent that an animal has it and it would only lead to more problems if it was passed on to someone elses collection. The only thing that everyone wants out of this is to not let this pass on to others. No one is looking to tarnish your name there just needs to be insurance that the infection is contained, if in fact your animals did somehow contract it. Furthermore if this other person, Yvonne's snakes have come into contact with that snake then you should probably make a thread letting people know about this as well and she needs to take the same precautions that you are taking. This seems like the HIV of the reptile world, is there anyone trying to find a cure for it at all? or at least doing extensive research on this disease?

Thank you... I understand that it is/was potentially a big deal... And while I do not believe Courtney, the OP, is "out to get me" or attempting to "trash me", I DO believe that a couple of the others are... I understand that there are ppl who have a sincere concern, I'm not denying that... But there ARE a couple who repeatedly have bashed others and have a history of being.... Less then "nice" we will say...

IIRC the incident happened what, almost a year ago? With IBD, it can go unnoticed longer in boas, but pythons will get it and pass substantially quicker than boas. If it's been almost a year and I KNOW she had her spider ball python BEFORE the infected BCL, and the carpet python she has, reticulated pythons, and ball python are still alive, it sounds like the isolated case is just that - isolated.

i've been reading and re-reading info on IBD and every vet site and reptile site I've read (Courtney posted links in another thread as well) say that pythons that contract IBD pass faster than boas.

I've had almost all my pythons before the BCL got here... The spider ball, the 2 dwarf het albino retics, Haze my mainland lav retic... and the majority of the boas I have as well...

I'm going to put it out there - Ashley and I ARE friends, and I do think some of this has gone overboard, I have also told Ashley that she has made a mistake with all of this broadcasting of her own personal information.

Now that everything is out there, I do not think she has a case of IBD in her collection. I can also vouch that she would take one of her snakes to the vet in a heart beat if there was an issue. Setting aside financial discrepancies people are bringing up, I can honestly say that she DOES have good intentions.

Carry on.

yes... And I DO plan to get liver biopsies to HOPEFULLY at least shed some 'proof' that there is no issue... As I said before, I need to find one that will do it on a live snake... Because I refuse to put down my collection unless I have an undisputed SOLID reason to do so... "IF" or "POSSIBLE" is not enough for me to put down my snakes

That's my opinion as well, and one expressed by some of the main researchers studying this disease.

There's a LOT of unknowns pertaining to IBD.
Including how long it can lie dormant in a collection, and exactly how it's transmitted.

I think you guys are expecting IBD would have just wiped out her pythons in a short period of time, and completely relying on the viability of her pythons to give her collection a complete bill of clean health.

I don't think it's responsible to rely on "well my Pythons are still alive so it wasn't IBD" as a proof positive.

She's lost 3 or 4 snakes in this past year's time. There are reports of snakes not showing ANY signs of IBD, being asymptomatic and lacking the presence of inclusion bodies in necropsies. These are discrepancies in her claim that she hasn't lost any more snakes. Personally, I think further testing should be done on ALL the snakes in the collection.. I think it should have been done IMMEDIATELY after the FIRST report.

I don't know for sure that she does or does not have IBD because SHE doesn't know without a shadow of a doubt if she does or doesn't have IBD.

What IS known is that there is Ashley's admission she had IBD and the necropsy to back it up followed with 3-4 dead snakes within the past year.

She stated she was NOT to sell the snakes she thought might be exposed, but her posts show she did before having any further testing and receiving a proven clean bill of health in the collection.

Unfortunately, this is the only report I could find... I did post pics and stuff from the necropsy on Ruby, the boa with the pyrometra infection... Pyrometra has nothing to do with IBD, you can ask any vet about the causes... It just happens sometimes... More common in cats and dogs and you will have symptoms in mammals who have it, but it's hard if not impossible to diagnose in a snake while it's alive...

Burm report... YES, I DID tell my vet about the BCL issue and asked specifically that they look for inclusions... They did and none were found... This is what they found in the burm

If this is true then unless at some other point Yvonne's animals were in with Sakara's Yvonne is in the clear. As far as I know that was the only time Yvonne had given some of her snakes to Sakara for breeding and this is the incident that I think Sakara was referring to when she said Yvonne's animals were housed with hers.

Ruby passed early this year... After the BCL... The BCL passed in November and we introduced Moose, her double het snow with Ruby in October... So he was here in with ruby when the BCL was in the house... They moved in in early-ish December but some of her snakes were moved down a little eariler if I remember correctly... Her anery, Toki was also in with my jungley looking girl in early spring when he started rubbing his nose... He was in there for... a few weeks to a month or so... The het albino boas that were NOT housed in the same room as the BCL as someone thought, WERE housed in a white rack in the room they were keeping their snakes in...

I don't think this snake was paired up with one of Yvonne's. I can't be 100% for sure. I know this snake was bred BEFORE Ashley purchased her and had retained the ova from the previous breeding. I think it was an infection that was brewing in the snakes reproductive system and was stimulated by another breeding attempt.

again, don't hold me to it, Ashley and/or Yvonne would need to verify.

Yes, the snake that died of the pyrometra, Ruby, WAS paired with one of Yvonne's snakes, Moose, her double het snow... He DID indeed get her pregnant and the infection, pyrometra, destroyed the ova and killed her... Moose is also the father to her future moonglow litter to her triple het female, Lola

 

[amercnwmn]

Oh no, I would NOT suggest anyone euthanize their animal based on a suspicion!

Even if the snake is suffering, or has been diagnosed with a terminal illness, that is entirely something that has to be the owner's choice. It's a hard choice. I have had to euthanize pets and a snake...sucks.

I don't know if someone suggested that to you, or why you felt that was something expected of you or if you just mentioned it..But NO..that's entirely YOUR choice and should be done, IMO at your discretion.

 

[SakaraGT4]

it was suggested to me by a couple ppl... and I just couldn't do it... I had to make the choice to put my burm down and I cried the entire time... It was devastating... and I thank God that there were no issues with her other than the liver failure...

IF I had liver biopsies on an animal and it showed positive or if an animal I had was suffering for WHATEVER reason and there was no way to cure it, yes, I would do it... And as I stated, I am going to try to find a local-ish vet to do some liver biopsies on a couple snakes, at least to start a couple, python and boa alike... I expect for them to not find anything, but I will post that when I get it done...

I just refuse to do that unless it's necessary... If I put down all my babies only to find that there truly was nothing... I would be devastated...

 

[AddictedToBoas]

it was suggested to me by a couple ppl... and I just couldn't do it... I had to make the choice to put my burm down and I cried the entire time... It was devastating... and I thank God that there were no issues with her other than the liver failure...

IF I had liver biopsies on an animal and it showed positive or if an animal I had was suffering for WHATEVER reason and there was no way to cure it, yes, I would do it... And as I stated, I am going to try to find a local-ish vet to do some liver biopsies on a couple snakes, at least to start a couple, python and boa alike... I expect for them to not find anything, but I will post that when I get it done...

I just refuse to do that unless it's necessary... If I put down all my babies only to find that there truly was nothing... I would be devastated...

I don't blame you for not wanting to put down all your animals, no one should do that. There's no guarantee all of your animals would have caught it or that it spread to them.

Good luck with your tests.

 

[Adrya]

For those who haven't seen my first initial post in this thread, back up to page 3. Thanks.

Those necropsy results are only lacking inclusion bodies. Everything else (except the Chlamydia.. that's just weird) reeks of IBD to me. The stomatitis, lack of locomotion and motor skills, weight loss, appetite loss, and inability to right itself are all signs of IBD. No other disease that I know of creates stomatitis together with a number of those other signs like that. IBD can kill a snake without leaving behind inclusion bodies... or at least, very few which can be undetected in pathology tests.

IBD severely suppresses the immune system so even bacteria or parasites that may be at normal levels in a snake because of the immune system keeping them in check may explode in lethal numbers when the immune system is depressed.