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How small is to small?

Joe_S

Joe_S

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Here's the question, is there really a magical gram weight where if you let a female breed before you are going to cause issues or even damage the female? I've heard many stories over the years of gravid imported females in the 800-900 gram range without an issue. So if they're doing it in the wild, and presumably have been forever, why is it so bad to do the same in captivity? Now, comes the sub question, of age. It has also been suggested that it takes much longer for these females to reach this size in the wild. So, that being said, if someone has a 3-4 year old female who is stuck at the 1000g mark, should you really consider her a lost cause or just toss a male in? I've seen people called unethical and all kinds of names over it in the past. I just don't get it. Do any of you have first hand experience where breeding a female at to light a weight caused serious issues or *damaged* her? Because I can't seem to get anything other than third or fourth hand stories of "Yeah, she only laid 4 eggs and won't ever lay anything more, but that's because she was bread for the first time before she was even ***grams." Commence discussion!
 
Personally, the smallest female I have ever put in with a male was about 1175 or so empty. Then again, she also was 3 years old and had sat at the 1000g mark for about 1.5 of those years.
 
I have heard that some breeders will throw a male in with a smaller female to stimulate her into eating. She may start breeding at 1000 grams and develop an appetite? I bred a female albino last season that was just over 1000 grams and she locked up many times but didn't go. This season she is 1500 grams but is showing no interest in breeding so I wonder if it could be an issue?
 
Females skip years sometimes, aren't receptive to certain males sometimes and other issues that are totally unrelated to weight.
 
I've heard 1,200 grams 1,500 grams and yes 1,000 grams as well...It really depends on who you ask... As I dont now if breeding them before a certain weight affects them... But I have also heard that if breed to early that they will either produce Small Clutches 2-4 eggs or infertile eggs ( I dont know if it is true)
Personally for me I prefer for my females to be at or over 2,000 grams But thats just me
 
And what if you have a female like one of my pastel girls who just eats like a pig and gets to the 2,000 gram mark in 18-24 months? Do you feel okay breeding her even though she's young because she has the weight?
 
If she's two years old and 2,000 grams ( I know I may catch some heat for this ) But yes I would... Now if she's under two years of age NO I wouldn't not even if she was at the 2,000 gram mark.
 
I think people are just impatient and dont think about the animals welfare as they should sometimes. I feel that anything under 1200g is probably a risk and personally, I don't want to jeopardize the snake. I held back two pastel girls last season who were 1150g and 1200g because I didn't think they had the girth or the weight.

I however have had two girls who were great eaters and gained 1400-1600g in a 18 month period and showed interest, so I bred them. They had the size and both produced clutches for me of 5 and 6 eggs.

I think there are exceptions to what the established standards are regarding size and age, and one must make a good decision with their females. I'm sure some small females breed in the wild, but we can limit the risks of complications by choosing to wait until they are adequate size in captivity.
 
David Reid said:
Breeding a female at 800 grams is just assinine.

Dave
Click to expand...

:iagree:

My magic numbers (among other deciding factors) are 18 months old and a 1500 grams minimum PERIOD to breed a female! I feed an appropriate size meal every 5 days to the females I decide to keep and grow up, by 18 months most are at the 2000 gram range, I have very few breeder females that are under 2000 grams. This is just my opinion, and it is what works for me.
 
Joe VerCammen
Age plays a large roll in sexual maturity in nearly every studied species known to man. I don't see how Ball Pythons would be an exception.

Clarence E. Payne III
That's why I posed the question, to see who would, who wouldn't and why. As for the under two year statement, I agree.

David Reid
Why is it asinine?

Craig Montoya
I agree, most people are very impatient and sometimes to the point of jeopardizing the welfare of their animals, however, what risk is there really involved in breeding a female that size? Again, I asked for first hand knowledge of things that happened. Not "My friend knows someone who's friend's aunt's uncle had a ***gram female who got egg bound because he started her to early" or "had a very small clutch and will only ever lay small clutches now." Not that this is what you're providing, I Just want to know if you're saying there is a risk, what proof do you have there is one?

Robert Kite
Some would say that it is in fact asinine to feed an animal every five days that eats an average of once a month in the wild. Again, what proof do you have that breeding a female at the right age but low weight is harmful?
 
Joe_S said:
Joe VerCammen
Age plays a large roll in sexual maturity in nearly every studied species known to man. I don't see how Ball Pythons would be an exception.
QUOTE]

I guess I'll find out! I have a couple 18month old 1500-1800 gram females breeding now. Only the future will tell if early breeding will affect there futures? As per the Maury Povich show if a 15 year old girl can already have a few children (Not recommended for my daughter) why can't a young ball have viable clutches? :rofl:
Click to expand...
 
Ah, but who's to decide what's to young, that's my point. At what age are they sexually mature? What age are there actually complications that someone has documented first hand? What weights? Which is worse?
 
Joe, I'm not sure if you're going to find all the answers that you seek in a single book, but you might want to start with "The Ball Python Manual". Hope that helps.
 
You won't get first hand on this from me, as I am not crazy enough to attempt to breed at 800g. If you want to ignore all the wisdom that has been passed on by the pioneers in this hobby, then do so.

Female balls reach sexual maturity between 3 and 4 years of age typically, so if you breed younger than that there is a risk, especially if they are small bodied. Numerous cases of eggs having to be aspirated and slugs being layed by under weight and under age females are out there. This past year we were cautioned that desert females had issues laying eggs around 1200g because they are a smaller bodied snake. It was advised to breed them at 1500g and over for the safety of the female. Would you risk your desert girl at 1300G because it came from only one source?

A comparison was made to all other species with age being a factor, there are 10 year olds out there giving birth, maybe even younger these days. Although they have matured enough to get pregnant, there are numerous risks to the child and the baby from a very young pregnancy.

I don't know if your just looking for justification to breed small snakes if no one can point out first hand any problems here or not. I would advise you against it and hope you can see the logic to not do it if you are. You can probably get with some importers and ask them their thoughts as they deal with it more frequently.
 
i here every one saying they get there females up to 1500 grams in 18 monthshow is this possible unless you are feeding more than once a week my females eat every 6 days med rat and takes longer than that.
 
Joe_S said:
Robert Kite
Some would say that it is in fact asinine to feed an animal every five days that eats an average of once a month in the wild. Again, what proof do you have that breeding a female at the right age but low weight is harmful?
Click to expand...

To each their own my friend. My previous statement was stated as FACT as it pertains to ME, and I know MY animals quite well. As for proof, I have none, but then again, neither do you have any proof that it ISN'T harmful, as I think each INDIVIDUAL animal is different. With that said, if you feel it safe enough to breed a female at 800 grams, who am I to stop you? But as for ME and MY animals, I will wait untill my girls are at an age and weight as stated previously. Again, this is just MY opinion, and it is what works for ME.
 
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