• Responding to email notices you receive.
    **************************************************
    In short, DON'T! Email notices are to ONLY alert you of a reply to your private message or your ad on this site. Replying to the email just wastes your time as it goes NOWHERE, and probably pisses off the person you thought you replied to when they think you just ignored them. So instead of complaining to me about your messages not being replied to from this site via email, please READ that email notice that plainly states what you need to do in order to reply to who you are trying to converse with.

  • IMPORTANT! PLEASE READ!! About the Google Adsense ads being displayed

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    Posted 08/15/2025
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    Yeah, I know. They are a pain in the butt. But they pay the bills to keep my server running. Just a fact of life, I am afraid.

    Want to get rid of them? Simple. Just become a Contributor level member or above and they will be gone. -> Please click HERE."

    Is that too much for me to ask of you to keep this site running? Well, sorry about that. I too wish I could get everything for free. But alas.....

    =====================
    Addendum: 01/10/2026
    =====================


    Google Adsense ad revenue for December, 2025 was just $30 over the cost of the lease for the server running this site. So, in effect, the money providing the incentive for me to continue running this site is coming SOLELY from the paid memberships and sponsorships here. Which honestly ain't much....

Bad Guy Jeff Barringer --Kingsnake.com hypocrisy

Greg....

Intergrades happen IN NATURE. They originally applied the term intergrade to apply to snakes found that showed characterists of two species / sub-species of snakes.

If man puts those animals together in capativity... then man is creating hybrids. Like it or not... that is what your doing. Intergrades happen because of natural selection. There is no natural selection in our snake rooms. Everything is done by our hand. Unless of course your housing your kings together all the time... and that's a whole nother topic.
 
Boy, it got quite in here all the sudden... Guess I'll go take a bath. Think I'll go with lavender tonight...
Before I go, is there any way the OP can still put one of those vote meters on this thread. I was just thinking if he put it to the vote for two areas, we might be able to settle the basic question this thread begs:
1) Do you agree Jeff S. was correct (more so than Jeff B)?
2) Do you think Jeff B. was more correct?
Actually we can do that now. 1 or 2?
 
Greg....

Intergrades happen IN NATURE. They originally applied the term intergrade to apply to snakes found that showed characterists of two species / sub-species of snakes.

If man puts those animals together in capativity... then man is creating hybrids. Like it or not... that is what your doing. Intergrades happen because of natural selection. There is no natural selection in our snake rooms. Everything is done by our hand. Unless of course your housing your kings together all the time... and that's a whole nother topic.

Kevin, we'll just have to agree to disagree. In my book, L.g. splendida X L.g.holbrooki is an intergrade, whether it happens in the wild, in my snakeroom or anywhere else. A sinacorn or "royal corn" is a hybrid. I don't have a microscope with me, so I just can't split that fine of a hair. I respect your position, just don't necessarily agree.
 
Kevin, we'll just have to agree to disagree. In my book, L.g. splendida X L.g.holbrooki is an intergrade, whether it happens in the wild, in my snakeroom or anywhere else. A sinacorn or "royal corn" is a hybrid. I don't have a microscope with me, so I just can't split that fine of a hair. I respect your position, just don't necessarily agree.

Greg... I'm willing to listen to what you have to say. PM me and show me the flaws in my logic. I say PM that way we dont get dinged for OT chatter.
 
BEING RIGHT ISNT DEMOCRATIC.

The way I look at it is...... I PAID him, he was working for ME not the other way around.

It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong and democracy has nothing to do with this. You only paid him for the privilege of being able to post ads on his site. HE owns the site, HE makes the rules, HE decides where the ads go - NOT you.

If you don't like the owner, don't like rules, don't like the organization, then go start your own website with your own classifieds and do it the way you want it to be done instead of continuing to whine about how Jeff B is doing it.
 
Parents and teachers alike will attest to this one statement: Life's not fair - get over it. Fortunately for the OP, KS.com isn't the only site to sell hybrids or intergrades or fire-breathing dragons or whatever the ads were about.

I can understand how being affected by a changing site is disappointing and maybe even grounds for a little resentment. However, it might be wise to stop obsessing about what the site change is doing to your business and maybe think about what your reaction to it is doing to your business.

Because frankly, I'm put off and I doubt I'm the only one.
 
I was once real sick with Mononucleosis. Very sick. I remember I didn't take compliments well, let alone criticism. You probably came on too strong. I will say though that a Hybrid forum should include only species of different genus. I would have Intergrade under each appropriate genus IE King Intergrade, Corn Intergrade... But that's just me and I don't own KS ;)
 
Quit with the personal attacks and name calling, please. If you cannot converse without doing so, I strongly suggest you find somewhere else to play. :NoNo:


i hope this isn't directed at me? for calling Jolles "sweetpickle" it's his old screen name that he gave himself on ks.
 
Does the KS hybrid policy only apply to snakes?
I noticed Glades has a running ad for Caiman sclerops X yacariensis in the croc category and not the hybrid/integrade category. There are other croc hybrids listed in the croc classifieds from time to time as well. Just sayin'
 
Jeff,

It seems to me that you reacted out of irritation, frustration and anger. That hostility left the other Jeff backed into a corner with no action left, by your insistence.
I am not even dealing with the taxonomic discussion but rather your immediate and I feel seriously flawed view of your role as a customer.

Thinking that a company you pay to advertise with as working for you is seriously flawed.
I assure you that when advertising in the New York Post or other large newspapers, the editors and owners don't consider you upper echelon in the company.

KS doesn't work for ANYONE BUT KS. Your ability to post adds is a way for you to work for yourself and advertise to a large market, that's why you don't get a paycheck from KS. Also why you don't send paychecks to people who pay you for snakes, do you work for them since they are paying customers?

Obviously customer service is important. Making sure customers feel appreciated and taking time to answer questions or other issues helps maintain relationships. In this instance you obviously felt slighted, and unfairly targeted....but your approach and your perceived position were enough to grate on anyone and create tension. Creating tension does not allow for constructive dialogue.

I don't know you and I am not attacking you at all here Jeff. I have lived long enough to have had some life experience teach me that raising hackles and snapping off are not the best course of action. We have all done it, especially when we feel we feel we are "in the right". I post in response to this only to have you step back and look at the situation and your knee-jerk reaction, and see it accomplished nothing constructive, and hope you learn from it.

-Riley Campbell

Riley, I think you more than anyone that has followed has hit the nail on the head. This post was about a horrible CUSTOMER SERVICE experience. For those who go into business with ks.com they should know how such complaints or misunderstandings are handled. If I put an ad in the post and paid for front page and got page 3 I would be equally railed, and for good reason. I pay for a service and I deserve the opportunity to have a dialogue with the boss in such an instance that the service changes without repercussions, I deserve an answer to the definition of HYBRID for the site. One that doesnt exist right now anywhere that I know of. Right now someone else has taken the same torch up the same hill for the same reason on the kingsnake forum. Why? Because a logical working answer doesnt exist. I hope this thread can be constructive in that end and it should be very obvious. Thanks for bringing us back on topic!
 
I agree with post #93. Riley covered all the bases. But Jeff, you still seem to focus on what the other guy did wrong, or maybe that's just me? I once, a long-long time ago in a galaxy far-far away, was the sales manager for the front half of pretty well-known herpetology supply store. I was made manager not only because the owner thought I could answer most of the questions to give the customers security we knew what we were doing, but also because I went by that motto posted earlier in thread somewhere: The customer is always right. Even when I had to deal with a flaming jackass, I would always keep my cool and let them be the ones who lost it. We also were not afraid to take back an animal, provided it was still alive and at least half-way healthy, and give a full refund if that was what the customer wanted. I think the best working definition for your position with Jeff B is that of a client. You have customers, and yes you do work for them by providing good quality animals and any services or pruducts you can add as well. But you are Jeff B's client, and as such, he needs to provide you with the service he agreed to with his TOS agreement. He does not have to kiss your butt or compliment you on the odor of your flatulence, but he does need to provide you, the client, with at least the very bare minimum of the standards of practice for his service. That being said, can you honestly say he did not meets those standards, and if not, what specifically was he lacking? You also need to keep in mind it takes two to tango. You met his minimum standards by paying the fees he required, but did you go out of bounds by telling him how to do his job, and not stick to your area of specialty? I think the answer is yes to the latter, and no to the former.
So here you are now some 10 pages later in this thread that would give anyone with ADHA a nightmare (Must... Stay.... Focused...), and it seems you are no closer to figuring out a solution when it has been staring you in the face all along. When you did not accept Jeff B's new TOS, which he is allowed to change at any given time, you had the choice to get a refund, which is one of the things he offered to you, or accept a compromise with the additional title of intergrade, which he was willing to offer. If I was not sick, and it was the middle of the afternoon, I was gatting a manicure and pedicure by some very hot asian, oh sorry honey, Venezuelan women, and one of my clients started telling me I HAD to do to something they wanted me to do, I would have not given a choice in the matter at all. You would have a check for the prorated amount left on your account in the mail that afternoon, and I would not want to speak to you again. How Jeff B kept as cool and calm as he did is a amazing feat, especially when he was the one with pneumonia.
At this juncture in time, I think any arguments regarding hybrids or intergrades, or outergrades or even in-betweengrades is moot. Jeff basically can do like that chickipoo married to George Clooney in Oh Brother, Where Art Thou? when they start arguing and he tells her she can't do something. "I can and I will, I've said my piece, and counted to three." and that was it. From that point on, it was obvious in your emails with Jeff B you were only getting on his last nerve. This is why my very first post contained the advice to never call him again. Maybe you will run into him at an expo and you two can kiss and makeup. But, especially if he gets wind of this thread, I am very sure your bridge to KS is burned, buried and turned to compost by now. The next thing I would do if I were you is admit you acted irrationally, and thank everyone here for sticking to it until you have possibly seen the light, even if it is an oncoming train...
I know at your age, listed at 44, the clock is now ticking as far as income increases go. I would be very careful choosing my words from here on out. You can either make some friends here, and everyone needs them, or you can try to show how much more you know than they possibly could. I think I can safely generalize when I say as a whole, people who are interested in herpetology are smarter than the average bear. For one thing, it takes an open mind to start thinking reptiles are not the evil creatures many people make them out to be. It also takes intelligence to learn the husbandry techniques for many of these species who need to have things just so, or they won't poop.
Anyway, I do apologize if I have seemed to take this thread lightly at times, but I felt a little humor shed on the situation might calm down certain factions that might be getting ready to scream: "You got your chocolate in my peanut butter..."
I wish you luck with your business, friend. I also hope you will begin to wait for people to take notice of your intellect on their own initiative rather than telling them how smart you are. In other words: Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.
 
BEING RIGHT ISNT DEMOCRATIC. Well we all have excuses. Jeff B was sick, my Patriots just lost. By the time he changed the heading I was already kicked off so there was no chance for me to back down. No chance. We all like being right, me more than most I guess. Bottom line I was responding as a paying customer asking for a defintion for not just me...but everyone. As usual I was misunderstood. I sincerely thought I was doing him a favor not the other way around. The way I look at it is...... I PAID him, he was working for ME not the other way around. YES, its his site, but I usually deal with mods and people who know me, who know that I am a sarcastic bastard who is easy going until someone is just plain wrong. I dont like stupid people. A hybrid is different from a intergrade which is different from a "pure" animal.....if those even exist at all in the wild or in captivity. The only reason there are so many definitions between those in the hobby, on this board or following this thread is because many arent educated enough in the issue. Most dont know what a GENUS is, what a SPECIES is, what a SUBSPECIES is or what a LOCALE is.....yet that doesnt stop them from voicing their uneducated opinion as if being right was democratic.BEING RIGHT IS NOT DEMOCRATIC. Jumpin Jiminy. I enjoy an intelligent arguement and I can accept someone who uses logic to state their position. "Its my site" might be logical looking back, but if thats how you have to win an arguement shame on you. Grow up. I accept that there are a lot of people smarter than me, and I am willing to point them out when they demonstrate it. I didnt make the crosses, intergrades or whatever, I like em and keep em and sell the ones I dont want on websites that will let me. I am not alone, alot of people keep em now. If you dont want em how tough is it to skip the ad? Its not like they are misrepresented. Zenny has a thread very similar to the one that got me kicked off Kingsnake in the forum now. Bay Area reptiles just renamed his snakes, same snakes as miine. We will see how selective the enforcement is. But can we all try and understand this thread not just complain about it? Please.

The evidence you posted of your conversation with Jeff B contradicts this. He let you know he was changing it, and you responded with your lovely "can't have it both ways!!"

Then he told you to choose refund or a suspension, and you responded again by complaining that he wasn't being hard enough on the boid people, and saying you were trying to help him 'do his job better'.

That is separate from anything you were posting on his forums.

I'd call that two prime opportunities to back down.
 
Does the KS hybrid policy only apply to snakes?
I noticed Glades has a running ad for Caiman sclerops X yacariensis in the croc category and not the hybrid/integrade category. There are other croc hybrids listed in the croc classifieds from time to time as well. Just sayin'

apparently so at least with Lampropeltis
 
Who cares anymore.:shrug01:

not me really, i hav'nt bought any reptiles online in years.

and i'm starting to dislike 97% of the reptile community more and more everday.

maybe i'll just quit the hobby and be a PETA volunteer,lol!!!
 
not me really, i hav'nt bought any reptiles online in years.

and i'm starting to dislike 97% of the reptile community more and more everday.

maybe i'll just quit the hobby and be a PETA volunteer,lol!!!

We all have choices. Sometimes, when you are not happy with something, the easiest thing to do is just to duck out.
It's not always easy to know what to do.
A positive step might be to support a good breeder, buying from someone who loves what they do and does it well even though their prices might be a little higher, the result of high quality care.

Another step might be to stand up for the reptile sites that give good service.
Stepping back and looking at the forest rather than the trees, both ks and this site do a good job at weeding out spam, organizing their site, giving a good place for herpers to talk, buy, and sell. After all that effort no site manager is going to want someone disrespectfully arguing and second guessing although as I have said, I don't think a well placed respectful request would have any problem.

If you want the reptile community to improve, instead of leaving, maybe see what you can do as part of the community.
 
The evidence you posted of your conversation with Jeff B contradicts this. He let you know he was changing it, and you responded with your lovely "can't have it both ways!!"

Then he told you to choose refund or a suspension, and you responded again by complaining that he wasn't being hard enough on the boid people, and saying you were trying to help him 'do his job better'.

That is separate from anything you were posting on his forums.

I'd call that two prime opportunities to back down.

Excellent post Jessica. The conversation should have ended once Jeff B. added intergrades to the forum title. He did what he had to do for the forum to be all inclusive. The rest? Ego diatribe...
 
x

Excellent post Jessica. The conversation should have ended once Jeff B. added intergrades to the forum title. He did what he had to do for the forum to be all inclusive. The rest? Ego diatribe...

Its easy to say stop the conversation when you got 30% of what you were paying for back.....at the time and still today there is no clear answer why if you breed hybrid boas you are allowed to post in the boa section but if you breed hybrid kings you cant sell em in the kingsnake section. If someone steals $100 from you are you happy when they give you back $30? $50?? NO, you want it all back or a very good reason why it was stolen to begin with. Alot of people can complain as to why I started this post but it has served its purpose. It has alerted people to the hypocrisy on ks.com, it has shown the level of customer service you can expect no matter if you are a paying member for 7-8 years.....my "14 cents a day"(more like 30 I think,lol)wont kill the owner of the website and he doesnt mind losing business. It shows many the direction of the business. It also announced that I am over here on Fauna now, and will be spending more time here. Get used to it,lol. I will figure out who are the complainers, kids, and the other people I'd rather avoid. It will show me who is skilled in a open minded arguement and who thinks a species is something you flush in the bathroom.
 
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