How small is to small?

[jntreptiles]

As someone who has been breeding ball pythons for quite a few years now, I would just like to say that this thread thus far as been an interesting read. There has been alot of great input from many individuals, and the posts seem to have been very lucid and well thought out.

So, I have to agree with Joe S., finally a debate, and a well put together discussion. If only all threads would be like this, I might contribute more often.

 

[Cp3_Pythons]

I personaly prefer feeding live ( I ALWAYS STUN THE RATS BEFORE PLACING THEM IN THE TUB) the rats alive but more the less knocked out I have a few Bps that eat Meduim Rats and 2 that are on Large Rats ( Via there size ) As I dont see a Small Rat making a very good meal for a 2,000+ gram Ball Python...
IMO That would be like me going to Mickey D's and getting a Double Cheeseburger its not going to fill me up
It just seems natural to me that a Larger Ball Python would seek larger prey items and would go for the larger prey items vs a smaller prey item altough the smaller prey item may be easier to obtain/catch in the wild I have no doubt that they wouldn't eat a larger prey item if they caught it

Ok Im typing faster than im thinking let me re-phrase the last section in that becuase I belive it may be taken the wrong way since I re read it and I confused myself
I have no doubt that they WOULD eat a larger prey item if they caught it

 

[gsrept]

Joe s
i will collect the data for this years breedings and forward you my end results when all said and done. giving the year off to most of my females with only a handfull breeding should be easy to do. pairings for this season include

bp x bp female is 1350 grams as of this she is still eating and has locked 6 times
spider x mojave this is second season she has gone 6 recorded locks and she is 1800 grams
black back x pastel third season for her 2800 grams 5 recorded locks

This is a sample of the average i am getting so far this season no ovulatios as of yet but most are building follicles and from what i can tell the BP has at least 6 follicles which is the average clutch size for that wieght i have observed. i will keep you posted as my season progresses. very good thread.

 

[bradleymoore]

i too have some going on that's in the range you're speaking of.

lemon blast x bee. bee is 19 months old and 1400g

pewter x 2 cinnamons. one cinnamon is 16 months old and 1375g and one is 2 1/2 years old and 1450g

albino x albino. albino is 18 months old and 1400g

 

[Earthworks]

"IMO That would be like me going to Mickey D's and getting a Double Cheeseburger its not going to fill me up"

lol uhoh not a good argument from a health standpoint though if we start comparing the effects of say a large big mac combo (lg rat) and a double cheesburger (hmmm ASF).

...that said you did make me quite hungry.

 

[Cp3_Pythons]

"IMO That would be like me going to Mickey D's and getting a Double Cheeseburger its not going to fill me up"

lol uhoh not a good argument from a health standpoint though if we start comparing the effects of say a large big mac combo (lg rat) and a double cheesburger (hmmm ASF).

...that said you did make me quite hungry.

Ok So it was a Bad comparison But hopefully I got the point across that I was trying to get across I was using it as a metophor but Yes I agree LoL I knew it would be sooner or later before someone commented on that LMAO

 

[Joe_S]

Mr. Payne, the argument from my side goes a little something like this... In the wilds of Africa, in the holes in which Ball Pythons generally reside, the largest prey item they would encounter would be approximately the equivalent size of a small common rat. Therefore, even a 5000+ gram female can subside and find all the nutrients needed from a weekly meal of a small rat. Or so I would argue. Now, if they were messing around in holes with capybaras, that'd be entirely different.

 

[gsrept]

what would be he largest meal one would encounter in africa that a ball could realistically eat?

 

[gsrept]

African giant rat - i would say to big but for the largest of balls
cape hare - to big
graeter cane rat-
rock dassie - similar to a guini pig
elephant shrew- yes
scrub hare - to large
spring hare- to large
tree squirrel- yes if they come to ground for food
striped grass mouse- yes
anderson gerbil- yes
agag gerbil- yes
gambian pouched rat yes
and a few other types of mice -yes

so as you can see the majority of there meals in my opinion would be mice, gerbils, and a few small rat species so it would be rare for them to have the size needed to eat some of the larger prey items such as the hares, mongoose which will kill a snake. IMO tehey would be slow growers in the wild and breed at smaller sizes than we allow them to you. It is most likely you would come across a 4 year old snake that is only in the 800 to 1000 gram range of course this is speculation on my part but common sense usually prevails. lets here what you all think.

 

[R. Eventide]

Krystal Tyler
Please let me start off by thanking you for understanding the fundamentals behind my originally stated question. Moving on, I most certainly agree with your first statement, the only harm in waiting is opportunity cost for those who care more about money than their animals. Personally, I got in to breeding ball pythons after over a decade of keeping them as pets because I find them fascinating and I care very dearly about each and every single animal. As to your statement of the theoretical several year old 1,000 gram-ish female, that's exactly my point. In that scenario, do you consider this animal a pet or is it safe for her to breed? What are the real risks involved?

Aww, thanks!

Both are excellent questions. First off, though, "pet" and "breeder" are fuzzy definitions to me, so I'm just going to go with "breeder" or "non-breeder." As for the several-year-old 1000g female, I guess it would mostly depend on the snake. For me, 1000g is probably way too borderline to try to breed her, but if she's in the 1100-1200g range, then I'd be more likely to try it. Again, though, it depends on the female: Is she a good eater? Does she have a good amount of body fat on her (erring on the side of too fat)? Is she as healthy as possible? If so, I'd be inclined to give it a whirl.

As for the real risks involved.... They're probably not all that different from breeding any other underweight female, with the exception that an older breeding female is not using energy to both produce eggs and grow, which will reduce the risks a bit.

I agree wholeheartedly with wanting actual, personal experiences with this! As I get more and more into breeding, I'm beginning to realize just how much "knowledge" about BP breeding is more hearsay than data-based--including some of the well-known BP care/breeding books out there!

 

[Cp3_Pythons]

Joe & Craig.....

Okay Thats understandable I get where your comming from but to me personally it dont make sense as they age and get bigger I offer larger meals to them my largest ball pythons digest the larger meals in the same time the smaller ball pythons digest there meals...

Is it wrong????? that I offer larger prey to the larger Bp's I own

I mean I understand where your comming from with what they would have to eat in the wild But ( PLEASE DONT TAKE THIS AS AN INSULT OR THE WRONG WAY) but were not in the wild were there found...

and if thats the case (NOT SAYIN IT IS BY NO MEANS) then whats wrong with only offering rat pups or weanlings there entire life and breeding them when there 3 yrs old and only 800-1000 grams??

Im not trying to be rude nor disrespectful just trying to understand the feeding thing more and if its wrong that I feed larger prey to the larger Ball Pythons I own....

IMHO I dont think in the wild they would be too picky on what they eat

IDK I guess this brings us back to the Do what works for you

 

[rcpreis3]

On the whole prey items in their natural habitat:

I remember watching on Discovery or Natgeo, or sumthin, that many terrestrial species of snake would invade rodent burrows and eat whole families of rodents. Hypothetically, instead of getting one medium rat, they'll get 2 Adult mice and 8 hoppers, thus being a decent size meal. So I think you have to weigh size versus quantity as well. Just how many of those small rodents are there running around? Smaller rodents digest faster but can sustain just as long as a single large prey item, right?

Also it mentioned that they'll hide out in the burrow they just stole, and stay safe to digest for weeks only moving out to find a new one to raid and pillage when they get hungry. Maybe this is why they maintain small weights in wild populations? Eating mutiple small meals and fasting for 6 weeks? Also the larger rodents and hares have to make it to adult size before a ball can't get them. When they are younger could still be considered prey.

Just some of what I've watched and MHO.

Btw this is a good thread

 

[rcpreis3]

When they are younger could still be considered prey.

When they are younger they could still be considered prey.

 

[Cp3_Pythons]

On the whole prey items in their natural habitat:

I remember watching on Discovery or Natgeo, or sumthin, that many terrestrial species of snake would invade rodent burrows and eat whole families of rodents. Hypothetically, instead of getting one medium rat, they'll get 2 Adult mice and 8 hoppers, thus being a decent size meal. So I think you have to weigh size versus quantity as well. Just how many of those small rodents are there running around? Smaller rodents digest faster but can sustain just as long as a single large prey item, right?

Also it mentioned that they'll hide out in the burrow they just stole, and stay safe to digest for weeks only moving out to find a new one to raid and pillage when they get hungry. Maybe this is why they maintain small weights in wild populations? Eating mutiple small meals and fasting for 6 weeks? Also the larger rodents and hares have to make it to adult size before a ball can't get them. When they are younger could still be considered prey.

Just some of what I've watched and MHO.

Btw this is a good thread

So correct me If Im wrong but what what Im getting from this basically there invading burrows and eating a few smaller meals at one time that could or may be equal to that of one larger meal at one time??

If this is the case then feeding one larger meal at one time is that equal to what they would get in the wild? The only diffrence is that instead of fasting for 6 weeks like done in the wild there eating every 5-7 days some say 14 days for larger Ball Pythons, there eating more frequently in captivity? Correct??

 

[rcpreis3]

Yea pretty much, atleast thats how I understood it. But that could be why there are smaller females getting gravid in the wild, it may just be how life works for them. As long as they get to a mature age even if they're only 800-900 grams they could still produce, I would just assume 2-3 egg clutches. I think nature takes in the effect of age versus weight and balances accordingly. Judging by the WC the OP was describing. Of course that is just pure speculation, and the only to really prove this and get good information is to have a large area to simulate their wild habitat and have a lil expiriment, of course it would probably be easier to just go over there and observe in the wild.

 

[R. Eventide]

What some are forgetting is that just because it happens in the wild doesn't mean it's a good idea. Nature isn't a warm snake room with plenteous food and little risk. How many ball pythons breed too young in the wild and die? We only see the ones that not only survive that breeding but also survive being caught and shipped. We do not see the countless snakes that don't make it at any one of these stages.

Same goes for food size/quantity. Yeah, a ball python can eat something much larger than its girth. How many times is this fatal for the snake, and at what size does it become fatal for the snake? We don't know.

These snakes of ours are not in the wild. We have the responsibility not to only take care of them but to take good care of them. I certainly hope I will never risk my snakes' health just to try something because "it happens in the wild."

 

[Joe_S]

I can understand the notion of a venomous snake raiding a rodent burrow and taking down a whole family and agree with it. However, how long does the average ball python stay wrapped on a rodent? Because I don't know about your snakes but by the time one of mine was done eating the first one, the rest of the burrow would have split. Leaving them back to eating one meal at a time. As for them eating massive meals, well it's possible but that certainly has risks, ones I can speak to first hand. When I was younger a friend of mine saw my snakes and became fascinated and started keeping their own. He couldn't find appropriately sized mice for one of his corns and fed it something a bit larger than it's girth, when the snake had issues digesting it and tried to regurgitate, the prey item got caught on the recurve of it's teeth and it suffocated. Also, I personally don't like the idea of "stunning" a rat before giving it to my snakes. I love all animals and the idea of hurting one intentionally is just to much for me. There is a risk involved feeding a snake a live prey item, I understand this, but we're not talking about rabbits to a burmese, we're talking about small rats to a ball python. For those who don't catch the difference, live rabbits are known for kicking their back legs so wildly when fed to a burmese or similarly sized snake that they will literally rip the snake open in sections 6-10 inches long and the animal would need medical attention. Now, having stated all of that. The worst rat bite I've ever had on a ball python during the whole wrapping process took off a scale or two and the snake healed up just fine with application of a properly diluted solution of Chlorhexidine (according to my vet it's better than betadine). So, back to the topic of breeding in the wild vs. captivity. I agree wholly that it is up to us, as animal keepers and care givers to take better care of our animals than they would of themselves in the wild. I would like to believe that no one would ever intentionally put any being in their care in harms way. That all being said, I still just don't see how the best practices we all know became doctrine. I've had a healthy 300 gram-ish male lock with females and produce viable clutches. At the time it was one of those, well he's producing sperm plugs, lets see what happens- kind of things. Now, would I also agree to putting that 300 gram-ish male in with multiple females the way I would one of my male breeders who is in the 1,000+ gram range? Never. Because I have heard first hand counts of what happens to males who are over done. Females on the other hand, I've heard more counts of egg bound females who were in the 2,000+ gram range than lower than 1,500. Maybe this is just because more people breed females in the 2,000+ range? Again, I just want to know what the actual risks are. That way if someone I'm selling an animal to asks me I can give them doctrine and science. Not to mention I'm a curious person and just want to know!

 

[Focal]

i guess no one can answer my question how it is possible for a female to be at 1500 grams at 18 months of age only feeding every 6 days i have thrty or so females and not one has reached that wieght in that amount of time unless its because i do not power feed.

I always thought the same until my recent Mojave. She's a 2010 and nearing 400 grams. She's putting on a 100 grams a month. I have adults putting on 100 grams a month.

I have a 1200 gram female that I got at 500 grams and she eats one small rat every 7-10 days and is 1200 @ 18 months and will be going this year. She seems more than mature enough, scenting and tail wagging. She's been cool for a few months and is still steadily eating so I am not really worried. I just started introducing her last week and she's probably going to be 1300 by the end of the month and 1400 before the weather warms. I think she will be fine.

I have a 2008 female that is stubborn as crap. She's around 700 grams and only eats once maybe every 6-8 WEEKS. She will be lucky if she is 1000 grams by fall 2011. Now I have a dilemma, do I put her in at 1000 and hope she switches her eating habits once she is in the mood.... or should I not because she is most likely not going to feed enough to make it? I WANT SOME ALBINO PINS DANG IT! I'm hoping she matures this year and that's what is keeping her from feeding. Most likely I will sell her if she doesn't tip 1200 this fall.

 

[Matt2979]

What some are forgetting is that just because it happens in the wild doesn't mean it's a good idea. Nature isn't a warm snake room with plenteous food and little risk. How many ball pythons breed too young in the wild and die? We only see the ones that not only survive that breeding but also survive being caught and shipped. We do not see the countless snakes that don't make it at any one of these stages.

Same goes for food size/quantity. Yeah, a ball python can eat something much larger than its girth. How many times is this fatal for the snake, and at what size does it become fatal for the snake? We don't know.

These snakes of ours are not in the wild. We have the responsibility not to only take care of them but to take good care of them. I certainly hope I will never risk my snakes' health just to try something because "it happens in the wild."

with this entire post!

I once contacted someone about a large boa that had grown too large and this guy was looking to rehome it. I was interested until I found out that he was feeding it squirrels and possums that he found/caught in the woods behind his house. He couldn't understand why this would be a problem because (his words), "If it was living in the wild, this is what it would eat!"

So what?? There's a reason that we don't mimic EVERY situation that our snakes face in the wild. In the wild they pick-up diseases, parasites and other nasties that we do everything in our power to protect them from.

With that said, I just don't see the point in rushing breeding, just because they might do it in the wild. Now I realize that this is only a debate about what problems may occur from breeding too young (IF there are any, hypothetically speaking, as I believe there are...even if I don't have the proof to back-up that statement). This statement is not directed at any individual, but just my own feelings on this subject.

 

[Focal]

If a female is too young, but not too small, what potential problems can arise? Let's say a female isn't obese, 16-18 months and in between 1400-1600 grams. I understand about the size and being egg bound but I can't figure out how age would come into play other than slugging out or producing small clutches.

Also, maturity. Wouldn't a female that isn't mature not breed anyway? I'm still learning about balls and probably will be for years so this is a request for info, not a counter point to anyones post.