Just Some Eye-Candy from HARD CANDY...

[deborahbroadus]

Those are some good looking girls Deb, are you breeding them this season?

I'm "attempting" to. That's all I can do. Both have had mutiple locks with males but I'm thinking they may go late since they are both still eating regardless of the follicles.

 

[SERPENTS DEN]

I'm "attempting" to. That's all I can do. Both have had mutiple locks with males but I'm thinking they may go late since they are both still eating regardless of the follicles.

What are you pairing them with? I still have some that are eating and some that need to grow some more before I breed them so hopefully they'll go later.

 

[Focal]

I love that bino! Not much "yellow bleeding" into the white. I hope I have some female hold backs this year.

 

[deborahbroadus]

I love that bino! Not much "yellow bleeding" into the white. I hope I have some female hold backs this year.

I classify her as a more "blushed" Albino. I have produced some Albinos (separate bloodline) with very good contrast and no bleed onto the white. I held back a female, she's a year old now.. and a male het from Galadriel's clutch perhaps I will produce more of the same?

I dislike doing Albino x Albino pairings. The last time I did that, a Paradox hatched out that didn't survive, and most of that clutch didn't survive. I much prefer Het x Albino pairings, now.

 

[deborahbroadus]

What are you pairing them with? I still have some that are eating and some that need to grow some more before I breed them so hopefully they'll go later.

Galadriel is being paired with a G-stripe.

Snowcone is being paired with a Fire.

 

[Maligator]

Thanks Jen

I have the books and the DvDs! I may be overdoing it. Gandalf was the Grey...he was a Normal.

Legolas... ummmm...Yeah. That's an idea!

Overdo it? Nah! These are still the only movie adaptations that I'm thoroughly pleased with.

You said most of the Albino x Albino clutch didn't survive - is that a common thing when breeding certain morphs together (as far as your experience goes)?

 

[deborahbroadus]

Thanks Jen


Overdo it? Nah! These are still the only movie adaptations that I'm thoroughly pleased with.

You said most of the Albino x Albino clutch didn't survive - is that a common thing when breeding certain morphs together (as far as your experience goes)?

Speaking only of Albinos, since Albinism is a disorder (lack of melanin) and is considered a genetic defect, abeit beautiful, it would make sense that pairing two such genetically defective animals would give rise to more defects in the offspring...this was my experience and one I do not wish to repeat. Although I did hatch out a Paradox that didn't survive..it was not worth the waste of life that I experienced.

Whether or not this is "common," I have no way of knowing as breeders do not normally advertise their failures.

However, one such honest breeder did announce his findings of a morph that had a high percentage of deaths when paired with another morph.. I believe this was one of the newer morphs. He posted a thread somewhere on here, I believe, perhaps another member recalls.

Absence of the pigment melanin in the eyes, skin, hair, scales, or feathers. It arises from a genetic defect and occurs in humans and other vertebrates

Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/albinism#ixzz1C4dXnN4B

 

[Focal]

Speaking only of Albinos, since Albinism is a disorder (lack of melanin) and is considered a genetic defect, abeit beautiful, it would make sense that pairing two such genetically defective animals would give rise to more defects in the offspring...this was my experience and one I do not wish to repeat. Although I did hatch out a Paradox that didn't survive..it was not worth the waste of life that I experienced.

Whether or not this is "common," I have no way of knowing as breeders do not normally advertise their failures.

However, one such honest breeder did announce his findings of a morph that had a high percentage of deaths when paired with another morph.. I believe this was one of the newer morphs. He posted a thread somewhere on here, I believe, perhaps another member recalls.


Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/albinism#ixzz1C4dXnN4B

Yes! This is the stuff I was mentioning in that other thread about breeders not posting in the discussion forum. I've always thought alb x alb was a bad idea but you don't ever see anyone talking about it. Instead I see albinos for sale, and when they show pics of the parents, they are both albs. Leading me and probably others to believe it's fine.

Same with woma's. I JUST learned there may be problems with them that no one mentions. THIS kind of info would be great if it was out there more.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Yes! This is the stuff I was mentioning in that other thread about breeders not posting in the discussion forum. I've always thought alb x alb was a bad idea but you don't ever see anyone talking about it. Instead I see albinos for sale, and when they show pics of the parents, they are both albs. Leading me and probably others to believe it's fine.

Same with woma's. I JUST learned there may be problems with them that no one mentions. THIS kind of info would be great if it was out there more.

I understand your concerns. That's one of the reasons that I push beginning breeders to research...there is information out there, it's not always in a central location. Some times a breeder will mention his outcomes in a blog on his site rather than post on a forum.

BTW: I believe the fatal flaw is in the Hidden Gene Woma, which is NERD's line? Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Maligator]

..it was not worth the waste of life that I experienced.

I wish there was a surplus of breeders that felt this way.

And thank you for the information! I have never been interested in breeding, so I haven't done any research on the subject. Now, I'm seeing, interested or not, I'll benefit as a buyer by doing said research and knowing what it possibly took to produce a stunning snake that makes me drool.

 

[Focal]

I think it was just with a normal woma but may have misunderstood WOMA thread

 

[deborahbroadus]

I think it was just with a normal woma but may have misunderstood WOMA thread

The thread and information are too convoluted for me to follow. It's mostly opinions of people that have not bred the animals they are talking about. They have simply purchased an animal without knowing the background, breeding, or keeping habits..there's no way for me to determine if all Womas will wobble from reading that thread. However, I do hope not as I have purchased one.

 

[Bob Kite]

Lookin good Deborah! Good luck with the pairings this season!

 

[deborahbroadus]

Lookin good Deborah! Good luck with the pairings this season!

Thanks, Bob!

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

I think the super woma is what ends up being lethal. Woma x woma produces lethal genes in the babies and they don't survive.

I have known more than a handful of people that routinely breed albino to albino with no negative results or deformities/fatalities. It may depend on the genetic strength of the parents, but most albinos are outgrossed from having hets and normals back in their genetic line, so they are stronger. Have seen at least 2 albino x albino clutches this past year that turned out great.

 

[deborahbroadus]

I think the super woma is what ends up being lethal. Woma x woma produces lethal genes in the babies and they don't survive.

I have known more than a handful of people that routinely breed albino to albino with no negative results or deformities/fatalities. It may depend on the genetic strength of the parents, but most albinos are outgrossed from having hets and normals back in their genetic line, so they are stronger. Have seen at least 2 albino x albino clutches this past year that turned out great.

Thanks for the information.

 

[hhmoore]

I've always thought alb x alb was a bad idea but you don't ever see anyone talking about it. Instead I see albinos for sale, and when they show pics of the parents, they are both albs. Leading me and probably others to believe it's fine.

It isn't as straightforward as that, unfortunately...a lot depends on the species, how the morph was developed, and the particular pairings. For example, with boas, for many years albino to albino pairings were discouraged because the Kahl line was plagued with eye issues. It was, and is, considered to be a defect caused by the amount of inbreeding done to establish and reproduce the morph. Now, like the wobble in the spider BP, it is basically felt to be a part of dealing with the morph (taking the bad with the good, if you will). I have heard numerous theories, and thoughts on how the eye defects can be prevented...but I haven't seen any valid evidence that any of them actually work. That is just one case, though, and there are many other species in which the albinos aren't problematic.

That said, the practice of inbreeding - while necessary, to a degree, in the proving and establishing a new morph - is too often deemed acceptable. How many times do you see people buying sibling pairs for breeding purposes, or talking about breeding babies back to parents? There simply isn't any reason - other than being lazy and/or cheap - to do that with established morphs.
This isn't exclusive to BPs, by any means...a lot of breeders perpetuate that by offering sibling pairs at a reduced price, or refusing to sell single females - I understand the practice from a business perspective, because they don't want to get stuck with a bunch of males they can't move; but hobbyists/breeders at all levels (IMO) should probably consider the messages they are sending both in practice and the information they give. I know, I know...some people don't have a lot of money to invest in their breeding projects - I'm not going to go there, except to say that there are plenty of options. Here are a few examples:
- Buy the female, and wait 12-18 months before purchasing a male. Prices will typically have dropped so you can save some money (often more than you would have saved by buying the sibling pair).
- If you are working with recessive traits, prices fall quickly on male hets. You might not get as many of your morph; but if you're on a budget, it makes sense. When it comes right down to it two years down the road, you can often purchase a visual male for what you paid for your original het female.
- Rather than breeding hets back to parents or siblings (again, talking about established morphs), do some networking and trade some of your babies for unrelated stock.
- If you find your dream snake, and you can't seem to get them except in pairs...consider buying a pair from two different breeders. Keep the male from one pair, and the female from the other; and you'll have an unrelated pair to sell. (Don't keep both pairs to make a breeding group - the whole reason for doing this is genetic diversity)

 

[deborahbroadus]

I agree with much of what you posted; however, in my case, I brought in a completely different male (Nick's) to avoid these dangers, this is the only reason I did an Albino x Albino pairing. Needless to say, I was not impressed with the results although it did net me a Paradox (even though it didn't survive, I can say I produced one).

It isn't as straightforward as that, unfortunately...a lot depends on the species, how the morph was developed, and the particular pairings. For example, with boas, for many years albino to albino pairings were discouraged because the Kahl line was plagued with eye issues. It was, and is, considered to be a defect caused by the amount of inbreeding done to establish and reproduce the morph. Now, like the wobble in the spider BP, it is basically felt to be a part of dealing with the morph (taking the bad with the good, if you will). I have heard numerous theories, and thoughts on how the eye defects can be prevented...but I haven't seen any valid evidence that any of them actually work. That is just one case, though, and there are many other species in which the albinos aren't problematic.

That said, the practice of inbreeding - while necessary, to a degree, in the proving and establishing a new morph - is too often deemed acceptable. How many times do you see people buying sibling pairs for breeding purposes, or talking about breeding babies back to parents? There simply isn't any reason - other than being lazy and/or cheap - to do that with established morphs.
This isn't exclusive to BPs, by any means...a lot of breeders perpetuate that by offering sibling pairs at a reduced price, or refusing to sell single females - I understand the practice from a business perspective, because they don't want to get stuck with a bunch of males they can't move; but hobbyists/breeders at all levels (IMO) should probably consider the messages they are sending both in practice and the information they give. I know, I know...some people don't have a lot of money to invest in their breeding projects - I'm not going to go there, except to say that there are plenty of options. Here are a few examples:
- Buy the female, and wait 12-18 months before purchasing a male. Prices will typically have dropped so you can save some money (often more than you would have saved by buying the sibling pair).
- If you are working with recessive traits, prices fall quickly on male hets. You might not get as many of your morph; but if you're on a budget, it makes sense. When it comes right down to it two years down the road, you can often purchase a visual male for what you paid for your original het female.
- Rather than breeding hets back to parents or siblings (again, talking about established morphs), do some networking and trade some of your babies for unrelated stock.
- If you find your dream snake, and you can't seem to get them except in pairs...consider buying a pair from two different breeders. Keep the male from one pair, and the female from the other; and you'll have an unrelated pair to sell. (Don't keep both pairs to make a breeding group - the whole reason for doing this is genetic diversity)

 

[deborahbroadus]

Here you go, Lucille:

 

[Focal]

it did net me a Paradox (even though it didn't survive, I can say I produced one).

Pics or it didn't happen