Info Lair of Dragons - Jodi Lease / Travis Delaney: Questionable quarantine practices...

[lairofdragons]

Jen,
You know how long I observed these animals its in my ad, and as far as your loss that you received on your end I am truly sorry...you must have followed your own advice about quarantine...which I believe is something like you quarantine for 30 days if it someone you know and 60-90+ plus days if you don't know them. Disease can pop up at anytime, just a little stress can trigger all sorts of underlying problem that has been laying dormant.
As far as me bringing my practices to the public I did in my ad...quite obvious...not trying to hide anything. It's like I posted a Buyer Beware on myself.....hmmm
You asked if I was truly not worried whatsoever about these kinds of risk?
I am not with these snakes and if I am wrong I did disclose what I would do about it.
You asked if I don't see how something like this lack of concern would send up red flags to anyone considering doing business with me. Who people decide to do business thats there choice and at least they know with me what they are getting on these snakes. Can you say the same about every snake you have bought. I didn't want a unseen red flag turning into a red banner.
I will run my business the way I want to...I will be honest with every buyer so it doesn't come back on me. The customer can decide what he wants to do with what he buys from me and I will do the same with what I buy. I am in this business for the long haul and I am trying not to start out on the wrong foot. I have made some some small mistakes along the way and if you are not getting better at anything you do you are only getting worse. I have over 60 snakes mostly breeders and rookies and I am just getting started.
You act like you caught me in some type of LIE..and started this post because of it.
If you ask me you should have started a post on "Quarantine Practices...What are yours?" would have been better headline then trying to drag me down.

Travis Delaney
Lair of Dragons

 

[Drew Zaun]

I will run my business the way I want to... I have over 60 snakes mostly breeders and rookies and I am just getting started....
You act like you caught me in some type of LIE..and started this post because of it.

Ok, nobody is trying to drag you down. To illustrate the point I made earlier, there is at least one person who stated in the Caspillo thread (which is all about quarantine at the base level) that she does not even go to reptile shows for what she fears she will bring back to her collection. She is not talking about purchases but rather pathogens.

Your ad can be altered or deleted at any time, but this thread cannot. If the person I referenced above sees another ad by you, or goes to your web site and strikes a fancy with what you are selling, she might come here and run a search.

You want to run your business and your collection the way you want to, well others have that same right, and now this information is here to stay. I am not calling you out or anything, but you are not saying anything that just about every scammer on this site has not said over and over, and since not everyone here knows you personally there is no way to know if you are going to remain honest or not. No offense, just a dose of pragmatism with a dash of cynicism.

And by the by, a lot bad guy threads involving health, and boy there sure are a ton of them, have quarantine as a key ingredient. As someone who is "just starting out"...you may want to keep that in mind. And I am not just talking about you showing up here as the subject of a true BG thread, but also someone who could possibly lose the 60 or so animals you have at the moment. There are a fair number of members on this forum who have learned that lesson the hard way...why not learn from them as opposed to finding out the same way?

 

[lairofdragons]

Drew,
I am just starting out with snakes as a business but I am not just starting out with snakes in general. I am 42 as of last Sunday and when I was 21 I was working for Wes Harris at his pet store in OKC "For Pet Sakes" taking care of his collection of over 200+ snakes on a daily basis, who here shortly in collaboration with VPI produced the "Lav Snow'.
Some of the big snakes I had back then "Burms" I went to Bob Clark's and hand picked out of the clutch...I have a pic of me draping over my shoulder his Leusistic Burm and a autographed pic of it hanging in my snake room. I seen and held one of the first Albino's BP's in the US when they were selling for $7500.00 and he is telling me in person what it might take to produce another but even he didn't know it was recessive at the time . So I am not new to husbandry practices I started out around the best there is in my mind.
I got out of reptiles for to many years and now that I am back into it i am blown away by the morphs that are on the market. Yes practices have changed and yes I am always learning and yes as I stated earlier "If you are not getting better you are getting worse" well I would like to think I am getting better.
Travis Delaney
Lair of Dragons

 

[FosterHerpetological]

Wow is this really even necessary? He stated it in his classified, now its up to the buyer to come up with their own conclusion. Hes not trying to hide anything obviously.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Ok, nobody is trying to drag you down. To illustrate the point I made earlier, there is at least one person who stated in the Caspillo thread (which is all about quarantine at the base level) that she does not even go to reptile shows for what she fears she will bring back to her collection. She is not talking about purchases but rather pathogens.

Your ad can be altered or deleted at any time, but this thread cannot. If the person I referenced above sees another ad by you, or goes to your web site and strikes a fancy with what you are selling, she might come here and run a search.

You want to run your business and your collection the way you want to, well others have that same right, and now this information is here to stay...

...There are a fair number of members on this forum who have learned that lesson the hard way...why not learn from them as opposed to finding out the same way?

Thank you for more eloquently writing what I have been trying to say.

Travis,
My current quarantine procedures were developed as a direct result of my experience. I once practiced another version, similar to what you are practicing -- the "Oh, these snakes look just fine" method or the "I know this guy pretty well, his snakes should be just fine and I'm not too worried" method. I took risks that I was ignorant to, despite the advice of others, and I suffered DEARLY for it. I would prefer you learn from MY mistake before you suffer the same or cause someone else to and send your reputation down the toilet. Let me tell you, seeing your animals die excrutiating, horrific deaths that you have zero ability to stop despite spending thousands of dollars in testing, medication, and research, is a really crappy feeling. I use "crappy" lightly here. Worse, knowing that YOU are the reason it was as catastrophic as it was because if you had practiced strict quarantine procedures, it would have been contained to just the source animal and those in quarantine with it...that is the worst part of all. Having to go through your snake room, tub after tub, rack after rack, picking up the snakes you busted your butt to earn the money to buy, raised up from tiny hatchlings, and the snake you had for years as your beloved first pet...looking them in the eye as you put them into pillowcases and into the freezer, knowing their hearts will stop beating...only something like that will make you truly realize the DIRE importance of quarantine. It still haunts me almost every day, even over 2 years later. I've started over, and I look at the new snakes I have and feel pain, because I miss the ones I had so much. They will never replace them. That is why I am as passionate about it as I am.

If you choose not to learn from the experiences of myself and others that have gone through the same, then I feel that your potential buyers have the right to know the risks you take before making their decisions one way or another so that THEY can make informed decisions. Once these animals are sold, you still have all the ones they came in contact with, and odds are will end up doing something else like this further down the road since you take it so lightly. At that point, the original ad will be gone, but this thread will be here to provide information to interested parties. It is up to you what you do after this to reassure your buyers that they are purchasing healthy, well-cared for, disease-free, SAFE animals and are purchasing from a seller that believes in nothing but high quality, supreme husbandry standards, and strong ethics.

 

[PAVLOVK1025]

Everyone who asks if this is necessary....this is just an info thread, so yes. Information is always welcome. This isn't just the "String 'em up and watch 'em hang" section of the site, it can be used to inform the public of something you noticed without having all the dramatics of calling out a business. Hence the options: Bad/Good Guy and Info.

Jen wants to make people aware of improper quarantine procedures and has every right to do so. Thank you Jen.

Travis has the courtesy to tell his customer the whole truth about what he's doing and where the snakes came from. Thank you Travis.

The rest is on the buyer to figure out with all this newly presented info.

~(--, )

--> p.s.-thumbs up on crusade for ethics, much better than that last one

 

[polasian]

Travis...you consistently speak of honesty...lets talk about that. The following was brought to light in early Dec (I forgot all about it until I noticed this thread )...it involves 5 accounts...

On 12-01-2010 lairofdragons signed this post with "Travis" which is odd considering the name under the account is "Jodi Lease."

Instead of going through FC private message...call me at 717-608-7424 or email me at [email protected]
Let me know something about the last message
Travis

After looking into it, what we found was pathetic (sorry for the length of this...)

One or two people are responsible for 5 accounts. lairofdragons is the primary account (although tdawg222 seems to be Travis's account)...the other three which were perma-banned back in Dec (JAYDUK, slitheringstevie, chy5) were created for the sole purpose of upping lairofdragons's rep.


lairofdragons has many IP's but only two of those IP's match other users... (the following 4 users have no IP matches with anyone but themselves and lairofdragons)

65.201.167.254;
JAYDUK

68.36.120.254;
slitheringstevie
chy5
tdawg222

The following is a BOI Inquiry thread for "Lair of dragons" (lairofdragons)...

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97438

- JAYDUK vouched for them within that thread (that was the only post made from this account).

- JAYDUK was created on the very same day that the Inquiry thread was posted. That was also the last time this account ever logged onto FC.

Its obvious that the JAYDUK account was registered by lairofdragons for the sake of patting themselves on the back.


---------------------------------------------------------------


The same EXACT story...but different accounts (slitheringstevie & chy5)...

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88887

- chy5 was the OP of this good guy thread (its a bit ironic that the # 5 is in that username...considering that there are 5 accounts playing games). His ONLY other post is in the following classifieds ad (he made that post only to agree with the post that lairofdragons made within that very thread...posts 3 & 5)...

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86110

- slitheringstevie made one post on the 20th, which was the day after the above Good Guy thread was posted...he's never logged onto FC since that day. That post was to vouch for lairofdragons.

Again, its obvious what the intent behind the registration of the above two accounts was.


---------------------------------------------------------------


That leaves us with one more account...tdawg222. This is Travis Delaney...the same Travis who signed the post which started this mess.

tdawg222 made two posts. One was an unrelated inquiry for a bearded dragon in some third party's ad. His other post was...

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82624

06-26-2006, 09:29 PM
I have a 10 lot of "Hypo Salmon/Hypo Pastel x Citrus" all 7 to 8 weeks
old and eating great 5 males and 5 females....some have very brilliant
oranges and greys showing up at this young age........$400.00 for the
whole lot plus shipping....sorry no paypal......money order only...for
pics of each one email me at [email protected]

He deleted that ad just in time for lairofdragons to post the same animals for sale (the following ad was edited one and a half hours after it was posted...that explains the drop from 10 to 8 available animals)...

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82631

06-26-2006, 11:00 PM
We have only eight left "hypo salmon/hypo pastel x citrus" babies and have decided to price them according to colors they are showing at this time....4 males and 4 females to choose from....15% discount applies, that means you can own one of these babies for only $42.00, we have others available for as low as $25.00....to see pics go to www.lairofdragons.com under available tab.

Personally, I find disgusting that someone would attempt to make a mockery out of the BOI. On the other hand, it was years ago (the last time they did this was in 07')...shady self promotion, although frowned upon, isn't as malicious as using multiple accounts to scam people (although I guess their actions could be considered a scam).

Travis's does seem to be an honest individual (in this thread)...perhaps the games that he played on the BOI were just thoughtless mistakes . I'm just putting the information out there, and its for you guys to decide for yourselves whether or not this was a lapse in judgment or lack of character (or both).

 

[lairofdragons]

Polasian,
As I stated a few post back I have made mistakes along the way but the info you are bringing up is close to 4 years old. I took some bad advice back then and was just starting out in the dragon business. I learned from it in more than one way. People make mistakes its how we learn. If you want to judge me from what I did four years ago then that is your choice and anyone who reads this post.
I bet it you dug up the past on almost everyone in here as you spent so much time on me you would find I am not the only one.
I will not deny any of the info posted above.
Travis Delaney
Lair of Dragons

 

[gsrept]

holy witch hunt why don't we put every one up on a boi. there is not one person here that does not do something that someone else likes, we all do things different does Harold get a boi thread because he put a new snake in with an existing to breed right away, i mean come on people relax and stop fighting amongst each other instead help educate.

 

[polasian]

Travis's does seem to be an honest individual (in this thread)...perhaps the games that he played on the BOI were just thoughtless mistakes . I'm just putting the information out there, and its for you guys to decide for yourselves whether or not this was a lapse in judgment or lack of character (or both).

I thought I was being sympathetic .

However, the lack of accountability...

Polasian,
As I stated a few post back I have made mistakes along the way but the info you are bringing up is close to 4 years old.

...and "they do it too" BS...

I bet it you dug up the past on almost everyone in here as you spent so much time on me you would find I am not the only one

...has me second guessing my initial opinion of you.

Yes, you did waste a lot of my time but don't feel special, you're not some pet project of mine. We're consistently looking into others who also (unfortunately) play these games. As moderators, we're tasked with preserving the integrity of this website. Yes, it was 4 years ago...so its no longer relevant? People work their es off to EARN a good guy thread, you however chose to manipulate others into believing you're stand up. Sure, everyone makes mistakes...now its time for you to be help accountable for yours.

I will not deny any of the info posted above.

...and that's a good start (not like you had any real choice, though).

...instead help educate.

Hence my post.

 

[lairofdragons]

This is the exact reason I faded away from this site for so long....the BS witch hunts...thanks Craig I couldn't have put it any better.

JUST SO EVERYONE KNOWS...I have have been communicating with Rich(webslave) about setting up a account with my name and keeping my business name the same. You can go to his page and read my post for the reasons if you so desire. Not doing it to try to cover anything up, as I stated to him in responses to my questions.

If you want to know why I post under Jodi name...its all there. Husbands and wifes run businesses together do they all need separate account to preform the same business. She has not been involved in this business for a long, long time.
I have sold 100's of dragons over the past few years....dig up dirt on those transactions if you want, chances are you won't find much if anything at all. I have had dealing were I went way out of my guarantee guidelines to make customers happy. I started out on the wrong foot and changed my business model and the way I treat my customers along the way. LIKE I SAID BEFORE..."If you are not getting better you are getting worse"
Now I will try to get the new account set up tonight if not tomorrow...just walked through the door after a look week at work.
Travis Delaney
Lair of Dragons

 

[Lucille]

the BS witch hunts

Does this happen? Maybe in the past where people were just getting back at each other for whatever reasons, one would start a thread on the other.

But THIS thread is an info thread and a good one about an important subject. You are in the spotlight here, but it is not a witch hunt, it is an examination of practices and husbandry. To minimize such a discussion makes you appear smaller in the eyes of the community. It's important. Participate.

 

[lairofdragons]

Lucille,
What do the last 3 or 4 post or more have to do with "Quarantine"?

What do the last 3 or 4 post or more have to do with Husbandry tactics?

They are about me, they are about my past, I stated in my ad the truth, didn't try to hide it, mislead in any way shape or form but I feel like I am on a Cross.

The subject of this thread has been lost and pulled in the wrong direction. I ain't looking for Karma, I ain't looking to be considered a good guy, just don't have a reason to be considered a bad guy for stuff that I have done in my past. If so string me up, dump gas and Burn baby Burn...
In the past three years I have tried to do everything right in the eyes of the public. I take care of my customers, I have friends that are breeders that I talk to on a regular basis about new ideas.
I didn't try to pull the subject of this thread on to spotlight of me...it was about quarantine...wasn't it?
Travis Delaney
Lair of Dragons

 

[Lucille]

it was about quarantine...wasn't it?

Travis, you are the sum of your parts. Overcoming a bad history can be done with time and hard work and good deeds. But pointing fingers and complaining does not help you.
If you wish to talk about quarantine, then talk. Many people, when questioned about something they have done (quarantine, or the lack of it) immediately defend.
Take time to think it through. I'm not telling you how to think, but if after reading this thread you would want to change how you do stuff, say so.

 

[Lair of Dragons]

Lucille,
I did post my quarantine practices on page 2...5th post...I ain't defending my practices I put them in writing.

Now lets think about something here:
When someone buys these snakes that this forum is about or for that matter any snake several things are going to happen when it come to quarantine:
A) they are going to quarantine them for their set amount of time
B) they are going to take them to a vet and have test run
C) they are going to just add them to their collection because they visually see nothing wrong with them or trust the breeder they got them from
D) they are going to resale them or trade them

Breeders take snakes to shows all the time, they have the best husbandry practices but they are still introducing them to a environment full of who knows what for a full day or a weekend. Then they do what...take them back home and quarantine them again for a set amount of time. I don't think so...but if they do how long should that time be. You are surrounded with imports and hundreds of people touching everything they are interested in. I bet you if you where to follow all the vendors home from a show they just walk through the door and put them back into their original environment with the rest of their collection.
This thread was started because I stated in my ad "I just bought these, I didn't quarantine them, I saw no reason too...." and when someone else buys them they have the choice to make what they want to do as far as quarantine but at least they know I didn't.

I HAVE ONE MORE THING TO ADD:
I ask that you please do this:

Now I have my new account under my name now this is the last response I will be making on this post, so if you want to continue this conversation please start a new forum thread and just put a foot note that this thread is continued but now its in the correct account holders name. I don't need my wifes name popping every time someone adds to this thread. I have my reasons for making this request and you are more than welcome to PM me to ask why or email me. JUST remember I would do the same for you and I know many others would as well.

if there are any Moderators that have the ability to lock this thread so someone can start a new one if they desire, please do so if it is possible.

Travis Delaney
Lair of Dragons

 

[gsrept]

Travis i would have to agree with you if some one buys a snake from you or anybody else its up to them to quarintine or put right into there own colony. and you are just as likely to get something at a show as buying from another seller. good luck with your sales and hopefully people will get off there high horse and come back to reality.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Travis i would have to agree with you if some one buys a snake from you or anybody else its up to them to quarintine or put right into there own colony.

True. But the people in this hobby need to be responsible for the animals they keep and the animals they sell to other people. The responsibility lies on the seller to provide healthy animals that have been screened for potential illnesses. Especially if they are reselling or brokering animals they purchased from elsewhere -- the responsibility becomes even bigger. Reselling or "flipping" animals is a pretty common practice and is harmless if done properly. But if someone is reselling newly acquired animals and not practicing any kind of quarantine in between, then this is information that their potential buyers should be made aware of, so that they can weigh that information as part of their decision making process. There are MANY buyers that would dislike this lack of quarantine and decide against doing business based solely on this information. I am one of them, and I know many others that feel the same. If another seller were out there that disregarded quarantine in this manner, I would hope that those that knew/witnessed this information would have the courtesy to post it for myself and other potential buyers to find and educate ourselves before doing business with that person. That is why this is not a Bad Guy thread, but an INFORMATION thread. The purpose is to educate, inform, and hopefully prevent negative outcomes.

Yes, Travis disclosed that they were not quarantined, and stated that he would cover any and all damages that should come as the result of an infection from his snakes. However, here is an example of a situation that I was trying to help Travis and his buyers avoid:

Say someone purchases these snakes, puts them in their quarantine which is in a spare bedroom completely separate from their collecton that is in another room, and the quarantine room has no other snakes currently in it. Then within days/weeks an airborne virus such as IBD or a paramyxovirus spreads and infects the person's entire collection, because the house shares one ventilation system like almost all private homes do and air is exchanged between all the rooms. This infection results in mounting veterinary bills for treatments and testing, multiple animal deaths as more continue to get sick, and ultimately the entire collection needs to be euthanized and the buyer has lost everything -- whether it be a small collection of a couple albinos and some spiders, or a larger one with crystals, mystic potions, super stripes, etc.

Is Travis going to reimburse his buyer for all of these expenses and losses? Is Travis ready to assume responsibility for such a devastating situation that stemmed from his animals? If the answer is no, then he needs to rethink his practices and properly quarantine new acquisitions, in order to allow time in an isolated environment for potential diseases like this to rear their ugly heads if present, and prevent them from being spread further into the community.

The fact that Travis has an apparent disregard for even basic quarantine practices when taking in new animals, and risks the safety/health of his own collection as well as the safety/health of his buyers' animals, really makes you wonder what other things he disregards or is willing to risk. This was my main point. These choices say something about him as whole, the mentality he has regarding this hobby and the affect he can have on others. Who knows what diseases/parasites his collection could potentially have been exposed to by being housed with and immediately bred to such unquarantined new animals; whether it was the re-sold snakes in these most recent ads, or prior snakes that he may have not quarantined either, or future snakes which he may not quarantine even after all this has been discussed. All of which are enough reason alone to make a reasonable person question whether to purchase from him, which is why the information needs to be available -- so that those that value such criteria in their decision making have the ability to find it and use it.

In regard to starting a new thread, I don't believe that is permitted, as it would create two threads about the same topic. Your information is already on this thread, so when someone does a search on the BOI for your name or business, this thread will always come up in the results, even if another is created.

 

[Python Dreams]

Something really rubs me the wrong way with this thread...

Your information is already on this thread, so when someone does a search on the BOI for your name or business, this thread will always come up in the results, even if another is created.

How many more people need to suffer devastating losses before people in this hobby will get it through their heads that quarantine is NOT something to be taken lightly or skipped altogether? How can anyone be so cavalier with the health and safety of OTHER people's collections and livelihoods?

Jen,
Pretty harsh stuff for an info thread...

Calling out a person/business on working a deal without proper quarantine seems pretty weird, especially since they are stating their quarantine practices in the ad. I am guessing their potential customers can read and can make up their own mind?

This thread just comes off as if your someone that is really ignorant to the reptile industry and your role in it (unless you are the self appointed quarantine Police). I guess you should go to a show and sit and watch a high percentage of the vendors regularly trade in and out at the show. Have another vendor watch their booth for a second while they go to the bathroom, etc (never have seen vendors change clothes for each booth) Some of the top people in the industry putting traded snakes right into their displays. Surprises me, yet happens with extreme regularity. You could probably start 20 threads in one morning at Anaheim. If your really about mothering the reptile world, you could start a thread for anyone that attends a reptile show since their are crazy airbourne viruses that could have people "suffer devastating losses"? How far does the mothering go? Threads for the vendors that dont quarantine every animal after a show, etc... You could really mother and save the whole industry if you did that!

You also have no problem mothering the quarantine world yet you start the rebuilding of your collection with Outback stock? Are you aware of the threads here about Outback? Are you aware that they import? Especially with someone that has suffered such extreme losses, you feel that an importer with questionable practices (as posted here on the BOI) is the best route to go in starting a collection? Unless it was a Banana male (or something so rare as to have no other options), I wouldnt want to knowingly bring Outback stock into my collection. And if it was a Banana male, I would quarantine in a different county at my parents. Yet with your knowledge of these airbourne viruses that is where you wanted to start? Seems just plain strange that you could do that while calling out another! Maybe you should post an info thread on yourself so people know that your starting up with an importers stock and all of the potential "devastating losses" that could go with that.

 

[mikeyt]

I agree with you Tom. 100%. Well said.

 

[Lair of Dragons]

Yes, Travis disclosed that they were not quarantined, and stated that he would cover any and all damages that should come as the result of an infection from his snakes. However, here is an example of a situation that I was trying to help Travis and his buyers avoid:

Jen,
I never asked for your help.....

Is Travis going to reimburse his buyer for all of these expenses and losses? Is Travis ready to assume responsibility for such a devastating situation that stemmed from his animals? If the answer is no, then he needs to rethink his practices and properly quarantine new acquisitions, in order to allow time in an isolated environment for potential diseases like this to rear their ugly heads if present, and prevent them from being spread further into the community.

I make 125k a year from my regular job, send you a copy of my tax returns if you would like...so I can afford to back up what I said I would do, not that its any of your business.

Reselling or "flipping" animals is a pretty common practice and is harmless if done properly. But if someone is reselling newly acquired animals and not practicing any kind of quarantine in between, then this is information that their potential buyers should be made aware of, so that they can weigh that information as part of their decision making process.

I did make the buyer aware so they can weigh that info into their buying decision....didn't I. As far as "flipping"...I stated I bought these others in a package deal to get the ones I wanted...only way to get them.

So in your..."Crusade for Ethics"....why don't you check your own backyard before you come playing in mine.

JEN..BTW how's the Ablino you just bought....was it quarantined to your high standards before you bought it.....?

Even if you plan on quarantining it, do you know if it was before you brought it into your collection because you have to remember....

Then within days/weeks an airborne virus such as IBD or a paramyxovirus spreads and infects the person's entire collection, because the house shares one ventilation system like almost all private homes do and air is exchanged between all the rooms.

It's this simple...I sat back let you say about me what you wanted, responded to your remarks about my practices but you act like you still have something to prove...so please prove it, move on to your next crusade....or do you just like seeing how high you can get your POST COUNTER can go.

Travis Delaney
Lair of Dragons