whats everyones opinion of the scalless cornsnakes?

[Classic Dum's]

these gonna be as popul;ar as many of the other morphs or gonna be hit or miss, im curious what everyone thinks, thanks

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I think visually, they're wicked looking. However, I think it's a fine line in regards to ethics. Their has been a handful of studies done on various scaleless reptile species that state they are susceptible to dehydration and have sun sensitivity. I've even read some studies that suggest the animals are in constant pain. I think more scientific studies should be done before they're mass produced for the public. If in fact they do have health issues, ethically I think the breeders need to look at the quality of life of the animal before their wallet.

 

[AK907]

I think visually, they're wicked looking. However, I think it's a fine line in regards to ethics. Their has been a handful of studies done on various scaleless reptile species that state they are susceptible to dehydration and have sun sensitivity. I've even read some studies that suggest the animals are in constant pain. I think more scientific studies should be done before they're mass produced for the public. If in fact they do have health issues, ethically I think the breeders need to look at the quality of life of the animal before their wallet.

Now if these studies were to find that these animals were healthy and happy, I'd love to own one. More needs to be known about them first before any more selective breeding is done in my opinion.

 

[snowgyre]

According to scientific literature, water loss is the same between scaleless snakes and scaled snakes. Granted, this is one of only two papers I could find, and they were both published in the 70s.

Bennett, A.F. and P. Licht. 1975. Evaporative water loss in scaleless snakes. Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology Part A: Physiology 52:213-215.

Abstract:
1. Rates of water loss were measured in two aberrant scaleless water snakes, Natrix sipedon, and in six normal animals.
2. Pulmocutaneous water loss of the scaleless animals was equal to or less than that of the controls at 20, 27, and 34°C.
3. The thermal dependence of pulmocutaneous water loss in all snakes was low (Q10 = 1·31–1·89).
4. The proportion of total water loss due to cutaneous evaporation (86·5%) in a scaleless animal at 20°C was similar to that previously reported for normal Natrix.
5. Thus, reptilian scales and their associated features (e.g. thick keratin layers, superficial dermal layer) cannot be considered adaptations for the curtailment of integumentary water loss.


These guys worked with Nerodia, which is a water-loving snake (notice the genus change). To be fair though, I don't think behavior (ie. soaking for an aquatic snake) allowed the scaleless snakes to compensate for evaporative loss, because of the following article:

Baeyens, D.A. and R.L. Rountree. 1983. A comparative study of evaporative water loss and epidermal permeability in an arboreal snake, Opheodrys aestivus, and a semi-aquatic snake, Nerodia rhombifera. Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology Part A: Physiology 76:301-304.

Abstract:
1. Evaporative water loss was compared in two snake species, the arboreal Opheodrys aestivus and the semi-aquatic Nerodia rhombifera.
2. Rates of water loss were significantly higher (P < 0.01) in N. rhombifera than in O. aestivus.
3. Shed epidermis of N. rhombifera was significantly (P < 0.001) more permeable than that of O. aestivus.
4. Following lipid extraction the permeability of shed epidermis increased in both species with the greater increase occurring in O. aestivus.
5. The efficacy of epidermal lipids in reducing cutaneous water loss may be an important adaptation to an arboreal environment in O. aestivus.


In short, if there was any difference between the water loss in scaleless and scaled snakes, we should see it in Nerodia, since their skin is more permeable than other species of snakes. Since corn snakes aren't aquatic, their skin probably has a higher fat content than water snakes, and therefore their ability to retain water should be fine even in relatively dry situations.

Granted, I have never owned a scaleless corn, so I'm not sure what kind of anecdotal evidence some of you may have. But the scientific literature seems pretty clear... water loss is similar between scaled and scaleless snakes. However, scales have a multitude of functions, not the least of which is protection from abrasions and depredation. In the wild this is probably a very significant danger to scaleless snakes, but in captivity these risks are obviously minimized or non-existent.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

According to scientific literature, water loss is the same between scaleless snakes and scaled snakes. Granted, this is one of only two papers I could find, and they were both published in the 70s.

In short, if there was any difference between the water loss in scaleless and scaled snakes, we should see it in Nerodia, since their skin is more permeable than other species of snakes. Since corn snakes aren't aquatic, their skin probably has a higher fat content than water snakes, and therefore their ability to retain water should be fine even in relatively dry situations.

Granted, I have never owned a scaleless corn, so I'm not sure what kind of anecdotal evidence some of you may have. But the scientific literature seems pretty clear... water loss is similar between scaled and scaleless snakes. However, scales have a multitude of functions, not the least of which is protection from abrasions and depredation. In the wild this is probably a very significant danger to scaleless snakes, but in captivity these risks are obviously minimized or non-existent.

As I stated, I had read an article in a scientific journal (much more recent then the 70's) that states they are susceptible to dehydration and have sun sensitivity. The study was done on some sort of colubrid, but I can't recall what species. I did not save the article, but I posted it on Cornsnakes.com 1-2 years ago. I'm pretty sure it wasn't in one of the ones in print I have here, but if I come across it again, I will be sure to post it.

You are right though, the dangers to being scaleless in captivity are much, much less then in the wild.

 

[Classic Dum's]

I think visually, they're wicked looking. However, I think it's a fine line in regards to ethics. Their has been a handful of studies done on various scaleless reptile species that state they are susceptible to dehydration and have sun sensitivity. I've even read some studies that suggest the animals are in constant pain. I think more scientific studies should be done before they're mass produced for the public. If in fact they do have health issues, ethically I think the breeders need to look at the quality of life of the animal before their wallet.

i would love to see these studies, to back that up, constant pain? were the studies conducted by peta? that alone is enough to tell me these studies are a little far fetcdh, what kind of reptile? what kind of studies exactly, ive know people whom have had scaless texas rats since the 80's health breeding etc no diff then their scaled counter parts

 

[Classic Dum's]

As I stated, I had read an article in a scientific journal (much more recent then the 70's) that states they are susceptible to dehydration and have sun sensitivity. The study was done on some sort of colubrid, but I can't recall what species. I did not save the article, but I posted it on Cornsnakes.com 1-2 years ago. I'm pretty sure it wasn't in one of the ones in print I have here, but if I come across it again, I will be sure to post it.

You are right though, the dangers to being scaleless in captivity are much, much less then in the wild.

so in otherwords you have nothing to back up what IMO is nonsense

now can we please stay on topic? my ? was "these gonna be as popul;ar as many of the other morphs or gonna be hit or miss," do you have anything you can ad to my ?

 

[AbsoluteApril]

my opinion.. don't like them. they're interesting to look at and I wonder if they are soft like petting a sphynx cat, but I want scales on my snakes and I don't really want them to be soft. Color/pattern morphs are fine. again, just my opinion, no offense meant to anyone that likes them


will it be popular.. time will tell I guess

 

[snowgyre]

Jason, I think Stephanie was trying to have a discussion on good faith. Your initial question was fairly easy to misinterpret. No reason to get ornery.

Honestly, I like scaleless reptiles. I think the "constant pain" is pretty far fetched and unsubstantiated, since these animals do thrive if taken care of properly. I can see dehydration and perhaps sunburn (?) being an issue for certain species (such as bearded dragon silkies), but other than that, I don't think it's much different than having a hairless rat, cat, or naked bird.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

i would love to see these studies, to back that up, constant pain? were the studies conducted by peta? that alone is enough to tell me these studies are a little far fetcdh, what kind of reptile? what kind of studies exactly, ive know people whom have had scaless texas rats since the 80's health breeding etc no diff then their scaled counter parts

Not that I'm aware of. Your guess is as good as mine on funding.

so in otherwords you have nothing to back up what IMO is nonsense

No, that is not at all what I said. Perhaps you should reread my last post? Will I go through and dig for the article just because it was brought up here? No, I do have other things to do and I did post it on Cornsnakes.com 1-2 years ago. I was attempting to have a discussion which seems to have been lost on you. BTW, your question was "whats everyones opinion of the scalless cornsnakes? these gonna be as popul;ar as many of the other morphs or gonna be hit or miss, im curious what everyone thinks, thanks" and I provided what I thought and what little information I gleaned on them from several years ago.

Jason, I think Stephanie was trying to have a discussion on good faith. Your initial question was fairly easy to misinterpret. No reason to get ornery.

Honestly, I like scaleless reptiles. I think the "constant pain" is pretty far fetched and unsubstantiated, since these animals do thrive if taken care of properly. I can see dehydration and perhaps sunburn (?) being an issue for certain species (such as bearded dragon silkies), but other than that, I don't think it's much different than having a hairless rat, cat, or naked bird.

Thank you. I'm not at all stating that the studies are 100% accurate, I did in fact say that I believe more studies should be done to substantiate the information one way or another.

 

[annmikeal]

Only thing I have to say is that Im happy they finally have viable offspring. Worked for a breeder back in 04 and every baby that was born was either dead or kinked. And when I say kinked I mean to the point where they can not stretch out

 

[timebider]

I think visually, they're wicked looking. However, I think it's a fine line in regards to ethics. Their has been a handful of studies done on various scaleless reptile species that state they are susceptible to dehydration and have sun sensitivity. I've even read some studies that suggest the animals are in constant pain. I think more scientific studies should be done before they're mass produced for the public. If in fact they do have health issues, ethically I think the breeders need to look at the quality of life of the animal before their wallet.

I agree 100%. On a totally OT note, it makes me wonder about the "silky" beardies I saw at Saturday's show here. I was told you have to soak them every other day and rub lotion on them at least once a week, which is definitely not something you'd normally do with a beardie (to my limited knowledge). Anyone know if that's the case with these snakes, too? I guess it's important to keep their skin from drying out; just looking at them, it's easy to see how they could be more susceptible to dehydration and/or damage.

That said, they are completely wicked-looking. I'm not generally a corn person but I'd consider having a scaleless one if I could be assured that it wasn't the equivalent of buying, say, a spider ball with a wobble or a pug dog with asthma. Certain traits we breed for can so easily cause unintended/undesirable health results (unexpected, as with the spider balls, or expected, as with dogs that have no snout to speak of).

 

[timebider]

which is definitely not something you'd normally do with a beardie (to my limited knowledge).

That should have read, "with normal beardies."

With respect to the OP's intended question: hard to tell. There is always a faction that seeks out "freaks" (two-headed snakes, etc.) and this might appeal to them. Hard to see how scaleless corns would gain widespread appeal much beyond that. They're expensive (at least for now) and probably somewhat higher-maintenance than the average corn. And one of the big appeals for corn fans is corns' general hardiness and ease of care. IMHO.

 

[annmikeal]

That should have read, "with normal beardies."

With respect to the OP's intended question: hard to tell. There is always a faction that seeks out "freaks" (two-headed snakes, etc.) and this might appeal to them. Hard to see how scaleless corns would gain widespread appeal much beyond that. They're expensive (at least for now) and probably somewhat higher-maintenance than the average corn. And one of the big appeals for corn fans is corns' general hardiness and ease of care. IMHO.

As far as their care... When I was taking care of them, there was no special care. They were kept on newspaper (obviously you dont want them on Sani-Chips). And we never did anything extra with them, just made sure that there was always water and misted them once a week. Oh and all their food had to be pre killed...

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

As far as their care... When I was taking care of them, there was no special care. They were kept on newspaper (obviously you dont want them on Sani-Chips). And we never did anything extra with them, just made sure that there was always water and misted them once a week. Oh and all their food had to be pre killed...

This would be different care compared to the norm...

 

[Classic Dum's]

Jason, I think Stephanie was trying to have a discussion on good faith. Your initial question was fairly easy to misinterpret. No reason to get ornery.

Honestly, I like scaleless reptiles. I think the "constant pain" is pretty far fetched and unsubstantiated, since these animals do thrive if taken care of properly. I can see dehydration and perhaps sunburn (?) being an issue for certain species (such as bearded dragon silkies), but other than that, I don't think it's much different than having a hairless rat, cat, or naked bird.

hey bro didnt mean to offend, i didnt feel i was getting ornery toward steph. her responce had nothing to do with my ?, ill get into more detail later but all her i cant back them up studies just drives me nuts, also I have a cple people i deal with on a daily basis that i can ask a ? and imediatly the whole topic is out in left feild somewhere, that annoyes the crap outta me because my ? was very specific are they going to be as big as other morphs or not? . I didnt and still dont want to hear good faith garbage, someone wants to disscuss good faith please start your own thread
'


And to whom every the sissy is that has to post there politically correct anoynomous crap on my profile, IMO pollitically correct is what is wrong with this country, regaurdless if you gotta hide and be anoynomous keep your worthless opinion to yourself(im sure ill get 10 of them now lol)


pics are oin my other puter but i bought one last night ill post some pics

Their has been a handful of studies done on various scaleless reptile species that state they are susceptible to dehydration and have sun sensitivity. I've even read some studies that suggest the animals are in constant pain. I think more scientific studies should be done before they're mass produced for the public. If in fact they do have health issues, ethically I think the breeders need to look at the quality of life of the animal before their wallet.

Dehydration and sun as of yet i cannot comment on, I guess my ? would be who cares about the sun cause if you own one for a pet why would it be exposed to amounts of sunlight that would be problematic?

constant pain i can tell you is horse shit, i spent all night last night looking at and photographing all the scaleless corns at BHB, I looked through all his adults, babies etc and after looking at his collection i can assure you thew constant pain this is nonsense someone made up for their own reasons(most likel PETA)

Now if these studies were to find that these animals were healthy and happy, I'd love to own one. More needs to be known about them first before any more selective breeding is done in my opinion.

ahh yes and this is exactly why i hate it when people post NONSENSE they cant back up

someone postyed a paper completly contridictes triplemoons dehydration thing but triplemoon says its bologna cause its from 70s but still has nothing to back it up, if you posted something on a forum a yr or two ago to me it was seem easy enouvgh to go through your history and find it,whatever

 

[Classic Dum's]

Originally Posted by annmikeal
As far as their care... When I was taking care of them, there was no special care. They were kept on newspaper (obviously you dont want them on Sani-Chips). And we never did anything extra with them, just made sure that there was always water and misted them once a week. Oh and all their food had to be pre killed...

This would be different care compared to the norm...

seriously? anything but news paper is somessy i cant stand it, you know sounds like your difficult no matter what

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

You were acting like a jerk, plain and simple. That was all moot as everyone had let it go, yet two weeks later you bring your same BS back to the table?

someone postyed a paper completly contridictes triplemoons dehydration thing but triplemoon says its bologna cause its from 70s but still has nothing to back it up, if you posted something on a forum a yr or two ago to me it was seem easy enouvgh to go through your history and find it,whatever

I have thousands of posts over on Cornsnakes.com. You expect me to go through three years of post history to find it? I'm afraid I don't have that kind of free time. Since apparently you do, why don't you go on over and run the searches (I believe it was a PDF)? That was why I said where I had posted it several years ago...So that anyone interested could look the information up for themselves.

seriously? anything but news paper is somessy i cant stand it

Yes, seriously. If you can't keep them on aspen, cypress mulch or any other fibber material, yes, that's not normal. What exactly don't you comprehend about that?

Honestly, your posts are so difficult to decipher I don't know how to take half of what comes from your keyboard.

 

[Classic Dum's]

You were acting like a jerk, plain and simple. That was all moot as everyone had let it go, yet two weeks later you bring your same BS back to the table?



I have thousands of posts over on Cornsnakes.com. You expect me to go through three years of post history to find it? I'm afraid I don't have that kind of free time. Since apparently you do, why don't you go on over and run the searches (I believe it was a PDF)? That was why I said where I had posted it several years ago...So that anyone interested could look the information up for themselves.



Yes, seriously. If you can't keep them on aspen, cypress mulch or any other fibber material, yes, that's not normal. What exactly don't you comprehend about that?

Honestly, your posts are so difficult to decipher I don't know how to take half of what comes from your keyboard.

oh that was you anoynomously whinning on my profile? IK thought it was someone else LMAO as for being a jerk i asked are they going to be as popular as other morphs, nothing else, i did NOT ask nor do i care for all the nonsense you posted yet cant back up, if i wanted to read all that I would have asked for people to post off the wall rumors they heard

That was why I said where I had posted it several years ago

no you nsaid 2-3yrs not several, this is exactly why i know better then to waste my time, ill spend several days looking backwards gto find nothing, then what was once 2-3yrs turned into several im sure will turn into 10-20 and gthen there will be some kinda storyt about how it was on the origanal sit that that wasnt compatable with the current one and it got deleted during the trasnsfer, no i got better things to do

 

[Classic Dum's]

Yes, seriously. If you can't keep them on aspen, cypress mulch or any other fibber material, yes, that's not normal. What exactly don't you comprehend about that?

news paper isnt fiber material?

after 23yrs thank god for you ole wise one! news paper is protien and calcium just like bones. Ive been misslead my whole life to believe it was fiber, no wonder i failed the first grade, uve saved me from a life of dimwhitted shame lmao, yoiur me hero!

LMAO nnow how many refeernaces woulod you like to understand that poaper/news paper is INFACT a fibger material, aspen and cypress mulch are wood and paper comes from wood also
look i dont know if i dated you or what the deal is but ive noticed over the years you always got something negative ti say in threads thaqt involve me

look i know spring grove(were i graduated from) and hanover are like 5 miles away, but seriously they did let you go to school long enough to learn paper comes from wood fiber, didnt they? especially with stink town(ph gladfelter) 5 miles down the road