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should a kinked caramel be bred?

champ641

champ641

Champion Beardeds
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I figured I would start this thread, because of the debate that is going on over in the classifieds.

IMO Absolutely not, And shouldn't be marketed as good breeding stock. I feel this is poor breeder ethics. All opinions welcome:thumbsup:
 
Absolutely not. It is entirely unethical to use an animal for breeding that has obvious health issues that could potentially be congenital.
 
I can not believe there are people posting on the other thread,that think its totally ok to breed this snake. Believe me, I will be taking a mental note on who to stay away from.
 
I have to agree. Not only would it be unethical to breed. How can he gaurantee the defect will not affect breeding when it just came off a shipment from Africa? All we know at this point is that it can eat with the defect. Not worth the risk or the price tag in my opinion.
 
That may be true but then isn't it unethical in itself to breed caramels knowing that there will be a possibility kinked babies? I completely agree with you saying he shouldn't be selling it as a breeder, with that low of a kink especially, and since he has not locked it with any females and has not gotten a clutch out of it then it should not be sold as a breeder. But if he did get a clutch out of it and one happened to match the father and he sold it, would people still complain?
Most morphs, not including combos of course, came wild caught from Africa and they obviously know that caramels were prone to these defects and even one of the first possibly came here with a defeat such as this but they still bred and breed these snakes today.
 
Why just jump on caramels why not jump on spiders since they obviously have a genetic defect. I honestly see where there is a problem with selling a kinked caramel, but how about the tons of spiders with a wobble that are being sold as Breeding stock with no one even saying anything about them. Until I see people really taking the same sort of attitude toward less obvious genetic defects then I honestly will not jump on this hate wagon. I will say this though I do not and will never keep a spider due to the problems they have, and as for caramels. I really do love the morph, but if I produce a kink it gets put down plain and simple. I do have one question the people in this thread. How many keep spiders and breed them? If you don't have a problem with a snake that has a parkinson's twitch why have problem with caramels???
 
Its because the original question was about a kinked paradox male caramel from Africa some one is selling on here as breeding stock. I was thinking the same with the spiders but didn't mention it because the thread was based on a caramel ;)
 
hoppingherps said:
Why just jump on caramels why not jump on spiders since they obviously have a genetic defect. I honestly see where there is a problem with selling a kinked caramel, but how about the tons of spiders with a wobble that are being sold as Breeding stock with no one even saying anything about them. Until I see people really taking the same sort of attitude toward less obvious genetic defects then I honestly will not jump on this hate wagon. I will say this though I do not and will never keep a spider due to the problems they have, and as for caramels. I really do love the morph, but if I produce a kink it gets put down plain and simple. I do have one question the people in this thread. How many keep spiders and breed them? If you don't have a problem with a snake that has a parkinson's twitch why have problem with caramels???
Click to expand...

I have been selective breeding spiders for awhile. and on the RARE occasion, I will produce a spider with a noticeable wobble. 99.9% of the spiders I have produced experience no wobble or neurological problems at all. I can put you in touch with some people that I have sold to, if you would like to verify?

Its all about selective breeding and breeder ethics.
 
dont like spiders or caramels becuz of the risk of a wobble or producing kink or buying kinked animals still to this day i dont understand why anyone would wanna own or breed a snake that looks like quasimoto ????... & just recently seen a super sable that would spin its heads
& wobble like a spider !!! so now i added sables to the DO NOT WANT LIST*
i do own a woma ... they have been known to wobble , but i didnt know this when i purchased him , but since i have had him , i have not seen him do any wobbling , the day he does he becomes just a pet & i wont breed him !!! *just my opinion
 
champ641 said:
I have been selective breeding spiders for awhile. and on the RARE occasion, I will produce a spider with a noticeable wobble. 99.9% of the spiders I have produced experience no wobble or neurological problems at all. I can put you in touch with some people that I have sold to, if you would like to verify?

Its all about selective breeding and breeder ethics.
Click to expand...

Exactly!

My pair of Spiders do not wobble. Every time I look into purchasing a spider or combo I specifically ask about wobbling (because for some reason, people think it's "normal" for a Spider to wobble it and rarely mention it in the ad!)...If the snake wobbles, I walk away no matter how good the deal...
 
TripleMoonsExotic said:
people think it's "normal" for a Spider to wobble it and rarely mention it in the ad!)[/I]...If the snake wobbles, I walk away no matter how good the deal...
Click to expand...
Not every spider shows it as a baby.
Our adult male spider never showed any wobble or shake till almost 11 months old.
Now he's a trainwreck and the biggest cork screwing spider you ever saw.
IMO There is no way you can buy a baby spider and guarantee it won't wobble eventually.

*he won't ever be bred either*
 
jerry : you are right !! i know of instances were a friend purchased a spider , had him for 3 yrs since a baby ... not a single wobble , then 1 day he is doing backflips literally !!!

stephanie: you are 100% right that it should NOT be accepted !! & i love what spiders do when combined ... this reminds me of going to a friends house about 1 month ago, he opens a drawer & has a killerbee it starts doing the wobble dance & i ask him : "how do you deal with that ???" he says : "like this!!" & closes the drawer !!! lmao !!! so i guess to the people that accepted it , i guess ignoring it helps !!
 
I would not breed a kinked caramel. Not because of fear of passing bad genes on. Can you imagine how bad it must be for one to breed in that condition, yet alone give birth!!
 
snakesRkewl said:
Not every spider shows it as a baby. Our adult male spider never showed any wobble or shake till almost 11 months old. Now he's a trainwreck and the biggest cork screwing spider you ever saw.
IMO There is no way you can buy a baby spider and guarantee it won't wobble eventually.
Click to expand...

I'm aware of that. I'm not speaking about hatchlings. I'm speaking about adults, proven breeders, up for sale that wobble (I was looking at one just last week). At that, some people do hatch out wobblers but do not immediately disclose it. Me, they'll be euthanized.



In regards to the Caramel in the classifieds...I find it amusing that it's being advertised as "new blood" to strengthen lines when the dang thing is kinked! Basically that's saying add more bad blood to the mix. Sadly, someone will buy it and breed it regardless of the condition of the animal. Some people just don't look at the long term.
 
LMAO.... NEW BLOOD JUST NOT GOOD BLOOD !! if it is kinked like the rest there is NO upside to paying the higher price !!! when you will get the same results u get from other lines !!! quasimoto looking snakes !!!
 
You should have posted this thread up with a Poll but to answer your question I agree that kinked Caramels or anything with a genetic defect should no be bred.
 
I also agree genetic defects should be taken into consideration when breeding. However, I do not agree that certain morphs should be "shunned" due to their potential genetic defects. I strongly believe in selective breeding and I think that "culling" is vital to any species being bred. In addition to ball pythons I raise and show rabbits and culling/euthanizing is one of the most important aspects. Fortunately, with rabbits, there is an outlet for unshowable, unbreedable animals in the pet market or for feeders. It seems to me with snakes there are too many people that want to make a quick buck that even selling a genetically defective snake as a pet is a risk because it could easily fall into the hands of an unscrupulous breeder who will use it anyway. With snakes, many people are in it for the money and cannot bring themselves to make the best decision for the snake or the species in general, as it means they will "lose money." It is never an easy decision to cut your losses and choose not to sell/breed a defective animal, but in the long run, you are helping your hobby by biting the bullet and doing what needs to be done to make the hobby better.
 
No, but...

Is it ethical to continue breeding Caramels knowing that there is a defect in the mutation that does produce kinked hatchlings ?

If you can breed an unkinked Caramel male to an unkinked female het Caramel, and produce kinked animals, i don't see how allowing a kinked hatchling to live and breed is any less ethical then knowing that there is a defect in the Caramel gene and continuing to breed them.

Simply freezing the undesired offspring, selling the rest of the clutch, and continuing to breed that stock the following season is not a road of higher ethics in my opinion.

If you are aware of the kinking in Caramels, and are still willing to work with the mutation, then let me ask you;
Are you more likely to produce kinked hatchlings if you use a kinked male Caramel as a breeder ?

Same goes for the Spider gene.

If you can breed a "Non Wobbling" Spider male to a non Spider female that does not wobble, and produce hatchlings that wobble, then I do not see how it would be any less ethical to breed Spiders that exhibit the wobble then it is to breed Spiders that do not (seem to) exhibit the wobble.

Caramels have the potential to kink and Spiders have the potential to wobble.
 
SERPENTS DEN said:
You should have posted this thread up with a Poll but to answer your question I agree that kinked Caramels or anything with a genetic defect should no be bred.
Click to expand...

:iagree: If I produce any caramels with kinks, spiders with bad wobbles, or albino boas with one eye, not only will the babies be put down, but that adult will not be bred again. I'm certainly not going to try to breed the actual deformed offspring!!! Putting it out into the breeder pool for people with no ethics/morals that WILL breed it no matter how much you label it "PET ONLY" is no better than just breeding it yourself, either. Just my $.02
 
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