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Whats the deal with Pieds?

MTL Reptile

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i was interested in breeding pieds. when i was talking to a formal breeder, he said not to get involved with pieds because they cannot guarantee a pied baby. meaning, if someone were to breed a het to a het, they may not get a pied in the clutch, even though 25 percent of the clutch should be pied. i didnt really understand this and figured i would ask to see if this is true, or if it was a myth or what not. i have a het pied pair now that should be ready to breed next season, but i dont want to be upset if i dont get any pieds:( thank you for the help.
andrew
 
Genetic combinations are random - when it says there's a 25% CHANCE it means just that. Statistically if you bred 1,000 hets to 1,000 hets you should get 250 Pieds, but each single pair could produce 100% pieds, or no pieds for that matter.
 
A lot of people look at the odds the wrong way - in actuality, the odds are for each individual offspring...not the percentage of each clutch. So, looking at it from that perspective, when breeding het to het, each baby only has a 25% chance of being a pied. Statistically, though, if the sample size is large enough, the percentages will still apply (as Helen stated)...it's just that with a group of 5-10, it is easy to miss the odds.
 
A lot of people look at the odds the wrong way - in actuality, the odds are for each individual offspring...not the percentage of each clutch. So, looking at it from that perspective, when breeding het to het, each baby only has a 25% chance of being a pied.

Yeah, good point. Sounded like sophistry at first, but when I thought it through, it is a much better way of thinking of it.
 
harold is correct on genectics, the percent is per egg not clutch on all breedings of codoms or recessive genes,, unless u get lucky like me a have het pied x het pied- five eggs and get two pieds and one high white and other low white, so u get lucky or not, its all how the genes fall at the right time in my words,, nothing is guarantee in breeding hets, but it will show up and hope that u hit great odds then,,, its all a big gamble, but it will pay off down the roads,,,,,,mark
 
This isn't an "issue" specific to just pieds, but any simple recessive gene, including albino, clown, genetic stripe, etc.

Ball clutches are small enough that it's quite possible that any single clutch may not give you pieds or whatever other morph -- especially a small first clutch from a young female. If you only get 4 or 5 eggs, it's quite possible you won't get any pieds at all that clutch. That doesn't mean this pair will NEVER produce pieds, just that your odds were bad. It's a gamble.

In species like bearded dragons or corn snakes, that typically produce much larger clutches than ball pythons and frequently have more than one clutch a year, you tend to get a more even "spread" of genes and get closer to that 25% of offspring showing that recessive gene.

However, a pied crossed with a pied (no hets involved) WILL give you pied offspring 100% of the time. (With the very rare exception of a female retaining sperm from a previous year, or a random mutation.) Two "visual" pieds paired up CANNOT produce non-pied babies, and the same goes for albino and all the other recessive morphs mentioned.
 
Here's a very basic genetics lesson for heterozygous traits, such as pied, albino.

Every animal has two copies of a gene. That gene can either be expressed or not expressed. In some cases, one copy of a particular gene may be "stronger" than another, and that "stronger" gene gets expressed. With heterozygous traits, the "stronger" gene is the gene that causes normal coloration, whereas the "weaker" gene is the gene that has the morph that you want, but when it's paired with a normal coloration gene it can't compete and so doesn't get expressed in the animal's coloration.

So, say that the "strong" normal coloration gene is represented by "P" (you'll see why I'm using this notation in a second), and let's say that the pied gene is represented by "p." So, a normal animal with no pied genes would be PP, a heterozygous animal (an animal that has 1 gene for pied and 1 for normal) would be Pp, and a pied animal would be pp.

The following is called a Punnett square, named after a geneticist who developed this table to help estimate the probabilities of genetic outcomes. It's very helpful for figuring this out. You put the father along the top (I have his genes in blue), and the mother along the side (in pink), and the potential babies are are in the inside of the table (in orange).

Genetics1.jpg


As you can see here, each baby has a 25% chance of getting both normal genes (PP, or homozygous for normal), a 50% chance of getting one normal gene and one pied gene (Pp, these animals are known as being heterozygous for pied), and a 25% chance of getting both pied genes (pp, or homozgyous for pied). Since pied is a recessive "weak" trait, an animal needs to have both of the pied genes (aka be homozygous) to be pied.

One thing to note is that it's impossible with most heterozygous traits to tell heterozygous animals from normal animals, since the normal coloration gene wins over the pied gene, and all of them look normal. I say most, because some het pieds do have markers, although whether or not those markers are trustworthy is still up for debate. In a heterozygous to heterozygous breeding like the example above, 75% of the animals will likely appear normal (3 out of 4), but of those animals that appear normal, 2 out of 3 (66%) may actually be carrying a pied gene. This is where you get funky percentages such as 66% het for pied in some ads. It's a completely legitimate and proper way to advertise these animals. You're taking a risk purchasing these animals because there's still a 33% chance that the animals actually are completely normal.

To improve your odds of getting a recessive trait to become expressed, you can breed a heterozygous animal (a het) to a homozygous animal (like a visual pied). Here's the outcome of that breeding:

Genetics2.jpg


As you can see, you will get 50% normals, and 50% pieds. Not only that, but every normal animal you get has a 100% chance of having a pied gene, so these are known as 100% heterozygous animals.

I hope this helps you out! Keep in mind that this applies to every heterozygous trait, and it even applies to codominants. For example,yellowbellies and mojaves are actually heterozygous for a pure white snake (ivory), but instead of the gene being "weaker" than the normal gene, it's actually "stronger", so it gets expressed. But, it's actually even stronger than you think, because a double dose (a homozygous animal) of the gene results in an even more dramatic expression of that gene.
 
All of this is of course assuming that your hets are really hets. Did you get them from someone you trust? I once spent 4k on some hets that proved out to be normals. :eek:
 
All of this is of course assuming that your hets are really hets. Did you get them from someone you trust? I once spent 4k on some hets that proved out to be normals. :eek:

that sucks that there are breeders( and i use that word loosely) that will do that!
this year i am breeding het to het pied and that is always in the back of my mind
 
I have heard of people breeding het pieds for up to three years & not getting pieds. I bought myself a pied female because I'd rather have one now and I was able to afford her. Hets are not a bad way to do it if you do not have the budget for a visual piebald, but like people have already said, it is a matter of buying from a trusted breeder AND not worrying about getting pieds in the first, second, third or forth clutch! Your odds don't necessarily get better as time goes by, but eventually you should get a pied.

Hets are not instant gratification, but plenty people have proved out theirs on the first clutch. Just hoping the odds will be in your favor! Good luck :D
 
just picked up 3 het pied females and one PIED male. i figured i would enhance my chances of getting a pied or two. the hets all have markings (not very important) and one has a ringer(also not important). i know atleast one is 100 percent het (i know the breeder very well) and the other two i picked up at hamburg. so hopefully they do prove out to be hets:)
my guaranteed het is actually not eating. she is in a 12 qt container and is about 300 grams. she was eating great for a month then just stopped eating! i tried mice, rat pups, and even ASF rats. are there any tricks anybody knows to try to get a picky ball to eat, or know why she would stop feeding all of the sudden? thank you
andrew
 
Andrew,
While there is no rule against straying off topic in a discussion forum, it is a bit rude to hijack another member's thread with a totally different subject...especially when there are dozens of threads in this section dealing with the topic of nonfeeding ball pythons.
 
Andrew,
While there is no rule against straying off topic in a discussion forum, it is a bit rude to hijack another member's thread with a totally different subject...especially when there are dozens of threads in this section dealing with the topic of nonfeeding ball pythons.

im not allowed to hijack my own thread??? thats new to me?
figured i would say how my het PIEDS were doing since the thread was pretty much over.
 
I said there was no rule against it, lol. Admittedly, I didn't go back to the original post to see who started it; but, in most cases, when somebody revives a dead thread to ask different questions, it isn't the thread starter.
 
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