Info BabyBlueEyes (Elmira)@ JMcornsnakes- Negative Experience

[ophidile]

While I agree she should be able to tell you who the original breeder of the snake is and be able to confirm hets that way, I don't think lack of paperwork is a major strike - it's not common among cornsnake breeders to make that kind of documentation. It makes sense with BPs who have clutches well under 20 and can sell for thousands, but when you have clutches that can go into the 30s and you're lucky to sell for $100, well it just doesn't make much sense.

That said, I personally have taken a clear photo of every hatchling of mine for the last few years and the clutch records are fairly well documented. But that's just because I'm obsessive compulsive and like taking photos

When do you plan to test him out? I hope he really does have the genes you want!

 

[ophidile]

BTW, Elmira just emailed me implying that I can expect a "big lawsuit" for putting her full name up on the BOI. I undertand someone not appreciating having their name up on a public thread, but sheesh, spending $10,000 in lawyer fees to drag me to court for it is a bit extreme.

Oh boy, a lawlsuit! It'll be an expensive way to learn that sharing facts and opinions is completely legal!

 

[martin-bernstein]

While I agree she should be able to tell you who the original breeder of the snake is and be able to confirm hets that way, I don't think lack of paperwork is a major strike - it's not common among cornsnake breeders to make that kind of documentation. It makes sense with BPs who have clutches well under 20 and can sell for thousands, but when you have clutches that can go into the 30s and you're lucky to sell for $100, well it just doesn't make much sense.

That said, I personally have taken a clear photo of every hatchling of mine for the last few years and the clutch records are fairly well documented. But that's just because I'm obsessive compulsive and like taking photos

When do you plan to test him out? I hope he really does have the genes you want!

Yeah, by paperwork I meant American Cornsnake Registry docs. Most people don't register clutches there, but I know of some who do, usually with clutches that produce unique compound morphs and/or hets like the snake in question.

I have a hard time believing that a year old snake has had four homes, and that the two previous keepers have no clue who produced him. How many breeders have the snakes to produce a lavender het plasma stripe? At this point I'm thinking no one does and no one ever has.

 

[martin-bernstein]

When do you plan to test him out? I hope he really does have the genes you want!

Thanks I doubt he'll prove out, but its worth a shot I guess. If he's ready next spring/summer we'll do it then. Though he might prove a slow grower

 

[ophidile]

Yeah, by paperwork I meant American Cornsnake Registry docs. Most people don't register clutches there, but I know of some who do, usually with clutches that produce unique compound morphs and/or hets like the snake in question.

I have a hard time believing that a year old snake has had four homes, and that the two previous keepers have no clue who produced him. How many breeders have the snakes to produce a lavender het plasma stripe? At this point I'm thinking no one does and no one ever has.

Looks like the ACR costs money? Again it's just not something I've seen used very commonly.

I don't actually think it'd be all that rare, all you need is, say, a stripe het lavender and a blood het lavender and you'd get some lavs het plasma stripe.

 

[Nanci]

How many breeders have the snakes to produce a lavender het plasma stripe? At this point I'm thinking no one does and no one ever has.

Well, I have a pair that has those genes in a different combination. They came from Rich Hume. Bloods het hypo lavender stripe. Breeding this year. Rich has produced at least one lavender bloodred stripe. I would imagine there are others with the hets out there.

It's not that much work to register snakes and clutches with ACR. I have gone the extra step of registering ALL the hatchlings, so if anyone in the future wants to look at a pedigree, at least the initial registration will have been done. It costs $60/year for unlimited registrations. So getting your whole collection in, the first time, is kind of a PITA, but worth it. I had amel pop up as a complete surprise in a Miami clutch last season. Because the snakes were registered, I was able to find where it came from on one side of the family, by finding an "uncle" who had produced amels.

 

[Nanci]

Wait- you said lava blood stripe. Joe Pierce comes to mind, then.

 

[martin-bernstein]

I don't actually think it'd be all that rare, all you need is, say, a stripe het lavender and a blood het lavender and you'd get some lavs het plasma stripe.

Wait- you said lava blood stripe. Joe Pierce comes to mind, then.

Yes, like you say ophidile lavender blood stripes are not at all rare. It looks like you might be confusing lava and lavender? Add lava to the mix and you do in fact have a rare gene combo, regardless of the homo/het combination. For example, to my knowledge, no one has ever produced a lava lavender blood, not even Joe Pierce because I asked him a while back.

While I agree that it is very possible that someone does indeed have the right breeders to produce a lav het lava blood stripe, I personally can't think of any. Plus, if this animal originated from J. Pierce it would have cost much more than the $80 Elmira was asking because he was selling hatchling lavenders only het for lava for $150 last year. Here is a quote from an email from him to me:

09-06-2010
"The next three photos are of the Lavenders 100% het Lava. The male has an Aztec pattern and has very nice pink coming in. He is also on washed pinks 1.2 Lavender het Lavas $150 each"

 

[shed'n my skin]

The shipping hastily and without a heat pack, and the packaging itself, are pretty bad. That snake does look too thin, and the fact she doesn't know for sure who the breeder was, also fishy.
I will say that not every breeder has the $ to register their snakes with ACR or the time to be as thorough as we would like about photos and documentation. I do give people all the info I have on the snake and its parentage if I sell a baby as het this or that. But I have also sold a snake to a person before as a poss het and then seen them posting on the corn snake forum that it was a het- I sent that person a pm and reminded them what I had sold the snake as. Point being, people can forget or make mistakes She sold it to you as what she thought/ was told it was, and not at a price that is going to break the bank. Perhaps the questions on who bred it and what proof there was about hets would have been better to ask before you sent the money, unless the breeeder you are buying from has such a great reputation that you can skip this step.
You have sent money and received a snake that, while shipped poorly and undersized, is not sick or dying and could still be what she says it is- I hope if it proved het for everything in the future you would come update this and let us know! Your best bet is to try to contact the previous owner? I hope the snake does well for you and proves out. I was looking at an ad by that seller but I decided to pass, I am extremely caregul who I buy from and I am suspicious of "really great" deals.

 

[ophidile]

Yes, like you say ophidile lavender blood stripes are not at all rare. It looks like you might be confusing lava and lavender? Add lava to the mix and you do in fact have a rare gene combo, regardless of the homo/het combination. For example, to my knowledge, no one has ever produced a lava lavender blood, not even Joe Pierce because I asked him a while back.

While I agree that it is very possible that someone does indeed have the right breeders to produce a lav het lava blood stripe, I personally can't think of any. Plus, if this animal originated from J. Pierce it would have cost much more than the $80 Elmira was asking because he was selling hatchling lavenders only het for lava for $150 last year. Here is a quote from an email from him to me:

09-06-2010
"The next three photos are of the Lavenders 100% het Lava. The male has an Aztec pattern and has very nice pink coming in. He is also on washed pinks 1.2 Lavender het Lavas $150 each"

Oh, sorry! I'd forgotten that part and was just going from the one where you said:

How many breeders have the snakes to produce a lavender het plasma stripe? At this point I'm thinking no one does and no one ever has.

I thought a plasma was lavender + blood :X (and, of course, technically it wouldn't be "het" plasma if it's already a lavender but... well you know)

I personally like to use herpster.

You're right, the LAVA gene in that combo on a yearling could be pretty rare... well suffice to say I've personally had many issues with hypos being misidentified. I'd be more worried about the genes getting miscommunicated in all that shuffling (like a game of telephone) than someone deliberately lying, though, especially if you think the snake was priced pretty cheap.

 

[martin-bernstein]

Perhaps the questions on who bred it and what proof there was about hets would have been better to ask before you sent the money, unless the breeeder you are buying from has such a great reputation that you can skip this step... Your best bet is to try to contact the previous owner?

Yup, I absolutely take responsibility for not inquiring in advance about the snake's origins. Won't make that mistake again. Elmira and I have exchanged several emails today, and I have repeatedly asked her to please put me in touch with the guy she bought it from, but she refuses to respond to that particular request.

Oh, sorry! I'd forgotten that part and was just going from the one where you said:

I thought a plasma was lavender + blood :X (and, of course, technically it wouldn't be "het" plasma if it's already a lavender but... well you know)

My bad, I meant lava het plasma stripe.

 

[shed'n my skin]

Sorry to hear it- if she did get it from another cs member she should give you that info. I don't see any reason not to tell you who she got the snake from. It would help to clear things up. Have you had any discussion with her about returning the snake for a refund since you are not satisfied?

 

[Paige n' James]

I agree with Jen. Hadn't thought about returning the snake, but the hard time the seller is giving you about telling you who bred it leads me to believe you might not have much luck with a return.

I can see why you trusted her though since she has been in the reptile business for a few years not just a short time. Although ball python "hets" give you the potential to lose more money I am sure Martin's time is valuable and if it is sold as a specific "het" it should be backed up genetically.

 

[martin-bernstein]

UPDATE

My hunch was correct- this snake is NOT het lava, blood, stripe. It appears that it is het charcoal, blood, stripe, though this has not been 100% verified.

Elmira finally told me who the previous owner was and I contacted her. Ali (Zulu3), the previous owner, was very helpful and said she'd contact the breeder to inquire about the hets. The breeder John Finsterwald (Zorro) responded saying he never bred that combo and that if the snake is indeed originally from him it is a lavender het charcoal, blood, stripe.

John also went out of his way to get in touch with me to give me this info himself which is very nice and certainly appreciated. I also found out that he had given Elmira this info already last week, but she chose not to share it with me.

So in conclusion, regarding the hets question- I think that Elmira truly believed she was selling a lavender het lava, blood, stripe and I don't think she intentionally sought to mislead me. Why she thought it was het lava and not charcoal I don't know. Once I questioned her about the hets she got so defensive that she was unwilling to make an effort to find out for me. It took almost three weeks until I finally had my suspicions confirmed, thanks to the help of the previous owner and the breeder.

 

[scaledverts]

My hunch was correct- this snake is NOT het lava, blood, stripe. It appears that it is het charcoal, blood, stripe, though this has not been 100% verified.

Elmira finally told me who the previous owner was and I contacted her. Ali (Zulu3), the previous owner, was very helpful and said she'd contact the breeder to inquire about the hets. The breeder John Finsterwald (Zorro) responded saying he never bred that combo and that if the snake is indeed originally from him it is a lavender het charcoal, blood, stripe.

John also went out of his way to get in touch with me to give me this info himself which is very nice and certainly appreciated. I also found out that he had given Elmira this info already last week, but she chose not to share it with me.

So in conclusion, regarding the hets question- I think that Elmira truly believed she was selling a lavender het lava, blood, stripe and I don't think she intentionally sought to mislead me. Why she thought it was het lava and not charcoal I don't know. Once I questioned her about the hets she got so defensive that she was unwilling to make an effort to find out for me. It took almost three weeks until I finally had my suspicions confirmed, thanks to the help of the previous owner and the breeder.

I'm not sure I agree with you on this one, but there is no way of knowing for sure. I have a hard time believing that she wouldn't ask about the bloodlines or who bred it especially if it is a rare combo of genes. The defensiveness is kind of a red flag to me! Why get defensive about it? It's not like she bred the snakes so there is no way of knowing unless she has information from the previous owners/breeder. To me someone that doesn't have the time or foresight to make sure of the genetics of the animals they are selling is not worth giving my money to.

I'm glad you were able to figure this out on your own without Elmira's help!

 

[ophidile]

Sorry to hear the snake isn't het lava after all, though I can't say I'm shocked at this point. I'm glad the previous owner/breeder were willing to help you out where the seller wasn't!!

Even though it probably was just a mistake, it sounds like she handled things incredibly poorly and is someone I'd avoid. So thanks for giving us the heads up.

 

[Nanci]

Well, I'm glad I didn't buy that snake, since I have three of his clutchmates! And they are very nice, BTW. Once he starts eating fuzzies, he'll take right off and grow for you. His sister Iris is 110g and his brother Jacinto is not far behind!

 

[martin-bernstein]

Though I'm really disappointed with the way this transaction went and with the way Elmira handled herself, I'm not entirely unhappy about the hets. Luckily I have a chacoal female, a pewter female and a few poss het charcoal blood females, so he won't be a complete mismatch in future breedings.

Thanks for your support guys!