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2 ball python hybrid questions.

Morelia4life said:
Dude.... you still don't get it.... I am talking about crap like a ball python and a garter snake mating in the wild, in which results would create a hybrid in the two species. It isn't going to happen!! A Burmese python mating with a ball python in the wild would create a hybrid species with the resulting offspring, but guess what?? It isn't going to happen in the wild. Do you still not understand what I am saying???? ANY SPECIES THAT CAN NOT BREED IN THE WILD AND CREATE OFFSPRING IN THE WILD, I AM NOT OK WITH. I AM OK WITH MORPHS BECAUSE THEY CAN HAPPEN IN THE WILD. I don't care if they survive or not, the point is that morphs can happen, stupid ball pythons mating with carpet pythons, Green Tree pythons, Burmese pythons, Blood pythons, CAN"T HAPPEN IN THE WILD.
Click to expand...

I completely understand what you're saying but you're just wrong, 100%.

I never said that any snake hybrid in captivity could be naturally occurring. Go back to my post, it answered every logical concern you had with captive hybrids. I can't make you understand it, but I've given you all of the tools necessary to potentially do so... If you still feel this way, why should a double standard be imposed? You admit that morphs may not be able to survive in the wild but you still use the fact that "hybrids can't" as your reasoning. Morphs cannot form successful breeding populations in the wild. Therefore, breeding them in captivity is unnatural. I'm sorry but all of this double standard nonsense is just beginning to look foolish.
 
ThomasHicks said:
I completely understand what you're saying but you're just wrong, 100%.

I never said that any snake hybrid in captivity could be naturally occurring. Go back to my post, it answered every logical concern you had with captive hybrids. I can't make you understand it, but I've given you all of the tools necessary to potentially do so... If you still feel this way, why should a double standard be imposed? You admit that morphs may not be able to survive in the wild but you still use the fact that "hybrids can't" as your reasoning. Morphs cannot form successful breeding populations in the wild. Therefore, breeding them in captivity is unnatural. I'm sorry but all of this double standard nonsense is just beginning to look foolish.
Click to expand...


I could be wrong, but I believe that the Australia Black-headed python has a breeding group of Axanthics in the wild and also that they Salmon boa breeds in the wild. So there is two morphs right there that survive and breed in the wild. I will agree that some morphs are unnatural yes, but not all.
 
Morelia4life said:
I could be wrong, but I believe that the Australia Black-headed python has a breeding group of Axanthics in the wild and also that they Salmon boa breeds in the wild. So there is two morphs right there that survive and breed in the wild. I will agree that some morphs are unnatural yes, but not all.
Click to expand...

Yes, some subtle morphs can successfully exist in the wild. One could argue that many are just naturally occurring color forms rather than actual mutations though. But the really flashy animals won't make it anywhere in the wild for long.
 
ThomasHicks said:
I completely understand what you're saying but you're just wrong, 100%.

I never said that any snake hybrid in captivity could be naturally occurring. Go back to my post, it answered every logical concern you had with captive hybrids. I can't make you understand it, but I've given you all of the tools necessary to potentially do so... If you still feel this way, why should a double standard be imposed? You admit that morphs may not be able to survive in the wild but you still use the fact that "hybrids can't" as your reasoning. Morphs cannot form successful breeding populations in the wild. Therefore, breeding them in captivity is unnatural. I'm sorry but all of this double standard nonsense is just beginning to look foolish.
Click to expand...


OH, btw, can you provide me with links and pictures of all those hybrids that occur in the wild so I can have a look at them myself? I would love to see some of them. I would love to see some corns x kings or Retics x burms in the wild. Thanks.
 
ThomasHicks said:
Yes, some subtle morphs can successfully exist in the wild. One could argue that many are just naturally occurring color forms rather than actual mutations though. But the really flashy animals won't make it anywhere in the wild for long.
Click to expand...


No matter how you try to "word" it, an Axanthic is still and Axanthic and a salmon is still a salmon and they are still found in the wild.
 
sfconstrictors said:
You are right. But they are naturally occurring. All base morphs are. Its not like wee man made the base morphs that naturally occurred.
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Depends on what you consider naturally. If naturally means "popped up in captivity from a normal x normal breeding" then fine. But if you mean naturally as it is apparently being defined in this thread, it'd have to be a "natural found in the wild."
 
sfconstrictors said:
You are right. But they are naturally occurring. All base morphs are. Its not like wee man made the base morphs that naturally occurred.
Click to expand...

Exactly my point. Thomas clearly stated that no morphs can survive and reproduce in the wild, but the Axanthic Black-headed pythons and the Salmon boas are two morphs that survive and reproduce in the wild. I know that not every single morph is found in the wild, but like I said.... some are.
 
Morelia4life said:
OH, btw, can you provide me with links and pictures of all those hybrids that occur in the wild so I can have a look at them myself? I would love to see some of them. I would love to see some corns x kings or Retics x burms in the wild. Thanks.
Click to expand...

That'd be a pretty daunting task as I'm not aware of any resource that plainly describes all known hybrids found in the wild. But I've seen C. atrox x. scutulatus, C. horridus x. C. adamanteus, A. contortrix x. A. piscivorous, P. obsoletus x. P. guattatus, P. obsoletus integrades anywhere two or more ranges meet, same with A. contortrix, etc, etc. I could go on all day. Point is, they happen, they can form very successful breeding populations. I'm not sure where to find all of those sources, but you're free to google at your own will.

Morelia4life said:
No matter how you try to "word" it, an Axanthic is still and Axanthic and a salmon is still a salmon and they are still found in the wild.
Click to expand...

True, but I'm not sure what qualifies a snake as being a morph. That seems to be a made up term by the hobby itself.
 
ThomasHicks said:
That'd be a pretty daunting task as I'm not aware of any resource that plainly describes all known hybrids found in the wild. But I've seen C. atrox x. scutulatus, C. horridus x. C. adamanteus, A. contortrix x. A. piscivorous, P. obsoletus x. P. guattatus, P. obsoletus integrades anywhere two or more ranges meet, same with A. contortrix, etc, etc. I could go on all day. Point is, they happen, they can form very successful breeding populations. I'm not sure where to find all of those sources, but you're free to google at your own will.



True, but I'm not sure what qualifies a snake as being a morph. That seems to be a made up term by the hobby itself.
Click to expand...

You are still missing my point. I am familiar with intergrades when species overlap and breed in the wild. I am sure that happens all the time. Once again, intergrades are a little different than a hybrid. Crotalus species mating with crotalus species would result in a crotalus species. Now, say for instance a Crotalus species mated with a copperhead.. even though they are both pit-vipers and found in the same area, it would be a hybrid because it is two totally different animals. I doubt in the wild a copperhead would ever mate with a rattlesnake. Just like how everyone crossing ball pythons with everything else isn't natural. Just because a ball python and a burmese python are both pythons..... doesn't make it right.

I told you, I am fine with Intergrades that happen in the wild. Intergrades happen... ball pythons mating with retics, carpets, bloods, burms, this and that doesn't happen. People have no right to play God with creatures. Morphs aren't playing God because you are just taking the same species, breeding them and producing new morphs. Fire x fire, Albino x Albino, Mojave x pastel.. they are all just morphs. No... they may not happen in the wild but like I said, some morphs do.
 
Morelia4life said:
You are still missing my point. I am familiar with intergrades when species overlap and breed in the wild. I am sure that happens all the time. Once again, intergrades are a little different than a hybrid. Crotalus species mating with crotalus species would result in a crotalus species. Now, say for instance a Crotalus species mated with a copperhead.. even though they are both pit-vipers and found in the same area, it would be a hybrid because it is two totally different animals. I doubt in the wild a copperhead would ever mate with a rattlesnake. Just like how everyone crossing ball pythons with everything else isn't natural. Just because a ball python and a burmese python are both pythons..... doesn't make it right.

I told you, I am fine with Intergrades that happen in the wild. Intergrades happen... ball pythons mating with retics, carpets, bloods, burms, this and that doesn't happen. People have no right to play God with creatures. Morphs aren't playing God because you are just taking the same species, breeding them and producing new morphs. Fire x fire, Albino x Albino, Mojave x pastel.. they are all just morphs. No... they may not happen in the wild but like I said, some morphs do.
Click to expand...

So you're saying that it's okay to play god by producing morphs but it is not okay to produce hybrids/integrades that have known natural hybrid populations?

I get what you're saying, I see your point, it just doesn't make any sense. At the end of the day, both animals are just as modified and unnatural. You can't say one is natural and the other isn't, it simply doesn't make any sense.
 
ThomasHicks said:
So you're saying that it's okay to play god by producing morphs but it is not okay to produce hybrids/integrades that have known natural hybrid populations?

I get what you're saying, I see your point, it just doesn't make any sense. At the end of the day, both animals are just as modified and unnatural. You can't say one is natural and the other isn't, it simply doesn't make any sense.
Click to expand...

I am not saying it is ok to play God with any creatures because it isn't. I am done arguing with you dude. This is getting nowhere. I disagree with you still about the morphs and the hybrids. I just dislike hybrids more than morphs. That is just my opinion. Like I said, I know a lot of morphs don't survive in the wild and that is fine. Like you said, there is nothing natural about any of us keeping snakes in cages and breeding them but people still do it. Bottom line for me is, if hybrids can happen naturally than fine, let it be but if they can't happen naturally than why do it in captivity. To me that is trying to play God more than the rest of us. Just my opinion.
 
here's a pacific gopher x california king hybrid found in the wild:

gopherkingyolobhubbs.jpg


i believe joe forks also came across a gopher x cal king back while field herping in the 70's, which became a display specimen at the san diego zoo. that picture is somewhere on ks.com
 
brianm616 said:
here's a pacific gopher x california king hybrid found in the wild:

gopherkingyolobhubbs.jpg


i believe joe forks also came across a gopher x cal king back while field herping in the 70's, which became a display specimen at the san diego zoo. that picture is somewhere on ks.com
Click to expand...

that is pretty cool
 
Not restarting anything from farther up but in Genesis after Man was created God told man that he was to rule over the beasts of the air, land and sea and to do as he pleases.
 
It seems this thread has ventured into religious opinion which was not the subject that the OP had in mind. We aren't here to argue the morals of hybridizing. Start another thread for that.
 
Lol. Aww yes, religion. Always a fun subject. I guess now in the reptile world you have two kinds of people. The people who are for hybrids and those who are against hybrids. I myself am against them. I see no point in them and find them rather ugly. Just my opinion.
 
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