Info ED CLARK FLIPPING MY DRAGONS

[hhmoore]

A flipper is someone who buys animals at reduced prices whenever and wherever they can. They oftentimes will lie to the seller (ex. "I want this for my kid's birthday"), lie to the buyer (ex. "It looks like a normal, but it's a quadruple het. I bred it myself so I should know") and then disappear off the radar as soon as the animal is sold to the first person to pay up.

Most of that description has nothing to do with flipping...aside from the buying at reduced prices when ever/where ever, your description was more fitting to the term "scammer".
I'll also disagree on your differentiation of flippers and resellers. If you think most resellers sit on animals for 3 months to quarantine them, you're sadly mistaken. The intent of both is to turn over the animals as quickly as possible. SOME resellers may give the name of the breeder, but I wouldn't consider it commonplace - if it were, fewer people would utilize the resellers.

but I think the "evil" part of flipping comes from those that don't QT, resell quick, and screws the buyer when the animal is sick/dead.

That, again, is the "evil" part of reselling - whether you call the person a flipper, reseller, middleman, dealer, wholesaler, whatever. Large, well known breeders take animals in on trade, and buy clutches - when they sell those animals, which is sometimes immediately (the animals are often purchased because they had buyers for things they didn't have), they don't make an issue of saying "I didn't produce these". And, if they did, how many people would get bent about it?
The faction that is so fixated on flippers is pretty outspoken, and the basic premise is that people should buy directly from the breeders. Why? Because they are breeders, and resellers are usually pricing their animals lower than those breeders want to go. Often, you'll find the flipper haters a few threads down, railing on somebody for being a market crasher. The mentality seems to go hand in hand. Oddly, some of the most outspoken on this subject will state that anybody that sells an animal they didn't breed is a no good flipper...while they themselves have sold animals that they didn't breed. It must be different when it involves them, or their ilk.

 

[BurkeBrosExotics]

This thread was just meant as info I didn't post a bad guy thread... So thanks Bill your the only one that noticed. I still don't understand how people can sucker so many people and have such a high rep... Also there are only a few things in this world a man has and the biggest is your word and word is bond.... It's ok cuz karma is a mother.... And I understand he paid for them and he can do what he wants... But it's still cruddy.

 

[East_Coast]

The animosity towards "flippers" is misplaced in my opinion.

Some breeders don't like to deal with the 25 emails that go back and forth during each transaction (even for a $25 gecko). Some also don't want the hassle or have the time to raise all of the babies and spend the time marketing them (here or at reptile shows). They then decide to pursue their hobby (breeding reptiles) and release most of the offspring for quick sale to someone willing to take on the responsibility and risk of reselling the animals for a profit. What is the problem here?

Without "flippers" I suppose the breeders themselves would just dump the babies on the market for next to nothing... which would considerably drop prices --- OR --- not pursue breeding some or all of their animals which would mean higher prices and less availability.

I see no problem with anyone willing to take this on as a business.

 

[Lucille]

I really don't care about everyones opinion.

You obviously are of the opinion that your outlook is the only correct one. I disagree.

It doesnt matter he knows he's in the wrong

I'm amazed that you are so gifted that you can tell what Ed or anyone else really knows.

also I would have had no problem if he had posted them a couple months down the road(with a reasonable markup) but to list all but one within two weeks of purchasing them is wrong, especially since he "planned" on breeding them.

So you are saying that he is wrong not because what he is doing is inherently wrong, but due to the timing and his sales price? Is your judgment of right and wrong in your life similarly based on such changeable and subjective factors?

You said in writing, above, that two weeks is wrong but two months is right. Could you please specify exactly which day wrong morphs into right? Is it three weeks? Four weeks and one day? When?

 

[illbeyoursoldier]

Well said.

Chelsea Lynn Gardiner

 

[hhmoore]

Josh,
Bill is definitely not the only person that noticed it was an info thread. Flipper is a hot subject for some people - once it gets tossed out, they lose focus on other things...even if they don't have all the information.
Most of us can understand that you aren't happy about the situation, and why....it's just that some of us have a different perspective (for any number of reasons). In many cases, we've been through it before; sometimes, as outsiders, we're just able to look at things more objectively. Posting information will run the same course whether it carries a label (bad guy) or not. People may express their views, which can spark discussion/debate. It doesn't mean that we don't get that you were just putting up a little FYI.

 

[oldworldlife]

Almost every animal I sell gets "flipped" thats the nature of the beast "capitalism".
The only way your animals won't get flipped is if you open a retail store and over charge everyone have fun with that .

 

[Focal]

On the flipper vs. breeder note. I think most problems seem to come from the flippers in regards to sick animals, incorrectly sexed animals, mislabeled animals, wild caught disguised as CB, etc. If you put a guarantee on an animal, and have no clue as to whether or not it's healthy, you are taking a shot in the dark. Whether or not you honor your warranty, an animal could have died, spread a disease, and flat out waste the buyers time. So much for a guarantee... am I guaranteed a healthy animal or am I guaranteed to have a real bad experience? How good is a guarantee if you know nothing about what you are guaranteeing?

I don't see much wrong with "flipping" if you can assure an animal is healthy and correctly labeled. Is spreading disease really going to help the hobby? Not everyone knows to quarantine when first starting up. What if (in theory) the OP dumped a bunch of sick dragons on Ed? Could now 5-7 people end up with sick dragons? What if they are flippers too?

Why should they buy from breeders over flippers? Because I have yet to see a flipper come out and tell the truth. "Hey, I just got these animals and I know nothing about them. I can guarantee I will replace them if they are not healthy, but honestly, I don't know." But instead you get "NEW HEALTHY BLOODLINE, GUARANTEED LIVE DELIVERY!!"

Flipping leaves quality control at the buyers expense, even if the buyer is fully taken care of and rightfully treated... in some cases wrongfully treated and left with nothing, after having been mislead by lack of details. Of course, the buyer should be asking these questions, but it's always that new guy/gal that makes that uneducated leap and pays.

Of course, this can also apply to breeders, but when I consider the two, I see one making these mistakes far more than the other. Reckless flipping hurts the animal, hurts the buyer, and puts money in the sellers pocket... as quickly as they can.

I respect everyones opinion on the matter and Ed, I don't know how you conduct your business, only what I've read here. You guys are the experienced ones when it comes to flipping, I know nothing other than what I read post-sale, but is sitting on an animal for a while and making sure you will have a happy buyer really that hard? I mean, if you can't do that or don't have the means, should you be in this business?

 

[George J. Ward]

Remember all of you so called breeders,that think they are a real herpetologist and aren't,you just bought snakes that were already to reproduce color morphs. That is what you bought and learned to reproduce. You aren't real herpetologists,just hobbyist breeders that think they know more than they do! If it weren't for all those import/export suppliers these animals and that market would have never been.You can't start this without them having originated all this for everyone that breeds anything. Mr. moore has very good points on things but doesn't know everything,but was very clear on his statements that I agree with. So remember that without the people that started all of this by bringing in the animals and flipping them as stated or so called flipping,none of you color morph breeders never would have what you have. Learn more about conservation of many of the flipper animals and dig a bit deeper and you will be amazed at how many people are trying to re-establish the market an an appropriate manner. And don't give Mr. Moore any grief for his coments he got enough of that from me and I will always stand my ground!!! Thanx Moore for speaking out on these matters.Some people don't realize where and how all this came about for them to be able to have these beautiful morphs to breed and sell ! Thanx!

 

[Bill T]

Remember all of you so called breeders,that think they are a real herpetologist and aren't,you just bought snakes that were already to reproduce color morphs. That is what you bought and learned to reproduce. You aren't real herpetologists,just hobbyist breeders that think they know more than they do! If it weren't for all those import/export suppliers these animals and that market would have never been.You can't start this without them having originated all this for everyone that breeds anything. Mr. moore has very good points on things but doesn't know everything,but was very clear on his statements that I agree with. So remember that without the people that started all of this by bringing in the animals and flipping them as stated or so called flipping,none of you color morph breeders never would have what you have. Learn more about conservation of many of the flipper animals and dig a bit deeper and you will be amazed at how many people are trying to re-establish the market an an appropriate manner. And don't give Mr. Moore any grief for his coments he got enough of that from me and I will always stand my ground!!! Thanx Moore for speaking out on these matters.Some people don't realize where and how all this came about for them to be able to have these beautiful morphs to breed and sell ! Thanx!

I don't think anyone is attacking import/export companies but I could be wrong. Also what is a real herpetologists.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread

 

[Ed Clark]

Josh tell me why you are so adverse to flippers?

When we met you asked me if I needed any baby hypo boas that you could run back to the shop and get me some. I asked you how much you replied $50.00 each I said no thanks that I have been picking them up for $25.00 each. you replied that you paid $28.00-$30.00 each for them.were you flipping hypo boas?

What did you mean by your shop? do you own a pet shop or did you mean a building full of animals?

You also mentioned that you were going to do the HDG show and you would bring a load of animals there to sell. were you flipping those animals?

I asked you about genetics,hatch dates and other info on the 5 dragons I bought, you promised to send me all that information when you got home...you sent nothing and were unavailable by phone yet prior to taking my money you answered the phone every time I called.I ask you once again to send me the info on those dragons as you said you would.

Josh I know that you and your brother are flipping loads of animals, don't really matter to me all I ask is to do what you say you are going to do. send me the hatch dates and genetic info on those dragons.

 

[Mistyck]

Because you don't like the fact that he's reselling animals he bought off you, you had to make it known? BTW, his Karma level isn't high, but his TRADER rating is.

You had the choice to mark down your animals to the level that you did, and that's your loss for wholeselling them out. You could have sold them individually and tried to make the same amount of money that Ed is now trying to make by selling them individually, but instead you sold them as a lot for less money.

Your choice to do what you wanted with the dragons, and yes if he told you he was going to keep some for breeding and sell some, and then turn around and sell all but one...That's a bit misleading, but nothing to write home about.

I don't side with either party in this thread, but this certainly wasn't a thread to start. Flipping is common in the industry, and so long as there are animals, there will be flipping.

 

[mxracer4life]

I don't want to get heavily involved with this thread, I wasn't even going to post at all but I feel now maybe I owe my .2 cents.

I believe a Flipper is someone who sells animals ONLY for profit, using whatever means possible to sell that animal. Flippers may only have the animal(s) in possession for 1 day, a week, or a few months, but there ultimate goal is to make money. If quarantine issues decide if your a flipper or not, I think most of us are guilty at some point, selling an animal without proper quarantine. It may be because of money issues, babies show up unexpectedly and space is needed or whatever. But what is proper quarantine? To me, 3 months is proper quarantine. Others may say a month, or even 6 months. So right there it starts to get cloudy on the definition of a flipper for this reason. Most breeders/wholesalers sell an animal as fast as possible, especially if it comes from a known good source and they are confident in what they are selling. If you really think about, our hobby kind of started with "flippers". You think some of the big names (I don't want to be specific) got where they are now by holding on to every animal for months at a time to ensure its health etc? They sell them! I have sold animals in general for multiple reasons. But I love selling! Especially when it means that money is going toward a new cage, new snake or rodents. When I have a litter born, and I start selling those little ones, I love meeting and interacting with new people, teaching them about husbandry, genetics and breeding. I also enjoy hearing about how they are doing, how big they are, what plans are involved with the purchase and even if they have added anything new to there collection.

Ed doesn't have the best reputation, we all know that. I personally, don't have a problem with him. Years ago, he helped me with some info concerning boas. I have talked to him on a few occasions, seemed like an ok person. I also am a person willing to give someone another chance. In this situation, like some have said, what if he does have 4 out of 5 for sale? Who cares? What if he is asking more for them then the OP? Who cares? Only Ed knows what he is doing, and why, and its his business. Let it go.

 

[Lucille]

Your choice to do what you wanted with the dragons

Exactly

I gave home almost a 50% discount 950$ for 5 dragons that I had listed for a total of 1600$.

When I re-read this, a memory came up from a college economics class a looooong time ago, where the professor made a point that things are worth what people pay for them.
Asking prices are funny things. In some industries such as jewelry, it is a common practice to ask a huge price and then give a huge discount.
Maybe these dragons were overpriced, maybe they weren't. I'm not an expert on dragons.
The bottom line though is that no one forced a sale here. There were no woeful tales of broken cars or rent not paid. So for the transaction to be completed, it must have been satisfactory to both parties at that time.

 

[mxracer4life]

Exactly

When I re-read this, a memory came up from a college economics class a looooong time ago, where the professor made a point that things are worth what people pay for them.
Asking prices are funny things. In some industries such as jewelry, it is a common practice to ask a huge price and then give a huge discount.
Maybe these dragons were overpriced, maybe they weren't. I'm not an expert on dragons.
The bottom line though is that no one forced a sale here. There were no woeful tales of broken cars or rent not paid. So for the transaction to be completed, it must have been satisfactory to both parties at that time.

Now lets all go have a

 

[Killer Chams]

Yeah I cant say I agree with Ed Clarks business practices. But he paid for those dragons. And as long as they are healthy when they are resold then he's done nothing wrong. As a breeder I dont sell lots of my animals or give big discounts for multiples for that exact reason. I expect someone to resell if they are buying my clutches in bulk. Just a part of the business.

 

[KingBowser]

Wow, not really sure where that weird tangent about import/exporters and herpetologists came from, but whatever. I do not believe that you can call someone a flipper if turning a profit is the primary goal. I do believe, however, that scammers will lie and deceive to get a good deal.

 

[Ed Clark]

Josh tell me why you are so adverse to flippers?

When we met you asked me if I needed any baby hypo boas that you could run back to the shop and get me some. I asked you how much you replied $50.00 each I said no thanks that I have been picking them up for $25.00 each. you replied that you paid $28.00-$30.00 each for them.were you flipping hypo boas?

What did you mean by your shop? do you own a pet shop or did you mean a building full of animals?

You also mentioned that you were going to do the HDG show and you would bring a load of animals there to sell. were you flipping those animals?

I asked you about genetics,hatch dates and other info on the 5 dragons I bought, you promised to send me all that information when you got home...you sent nothing and were unavailable by phone yet prior to taking my money you answered the phone every time I called.I ask you once again to send me the info on those dragons as you said you would.

Josh I know that you and your brother are flipping loads of animals, don't really matter to me all I ask is to do what you say you are going to do. send me the hatch dates and genetic info on those dragons.

Josh, you have avoided these questions, how about your thoughts on this?

 

[RichsBallPythons]

Josh, you have avoided these questions, how about your thoughts on this?

Dont get pushy on someone not answering YOUR questions. You have hundreds in other threads you've yet to answers. Take your own advice.

 

[dragonluver83]

Dont get pushy on someone not answering YOUR questions. You have hundreds in other threads you've yet to answers. Take your own advice.

No doubt, I like how he wants to make others answer questions. When this man has dodged every question he doesnt feel like answering. Ed doesnt like it when others play his game?

I see alot of arguing about flippers, wholesalers, buyers, and breeders.

Breeders need wholesalers, wholesalers need buyers, buyers need animals.

As long as the seller is giving the information that is needed and selling a healthy thriving animal, who cares who bred the animals? An IF you DO care, buy from a breeder!

I have and will buy wholesale when needed, and have sold alot of wholesale. It makes the business go round. What would I do when I have 200 babies at one clip ready to go? Should I retail ALL 200 animals or sell a 150 of them and try and retail the other 50. Saves time, feeders, and alot of work.

To the OP:

*Never sell any animals for a price your not happy with. Regardless of the buyers reason. Ed lied to you to get the price he wanted. What can I say, If this is the worse thing ed does its a heck of a improvement. An if you werent happy with the price you should have walked away.
*Joe schmo would have been better off with your animals. Research ed and his animals here on fauna. Not only is there quite a few bad guy threads about him. There about different animals, and there poor condition.

To ed:

Glad to see you still are, who you are.

Although this isnt nothing more than someone upset about you lying to get what you want. I do believe you said I want these to breed. You pulled the same excuse here, only to go home and post those animals for sale. But atleast your keeping your nose clean, for the most part.

To everyone else, Happy herping!