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Bad Guy pat kline (Luxurious leopards)

pigslayer said:
angie what has he dont to try and please me,he offered some of my babies back that i sent him,i declined,his other offer was to ship the babies from that last clutch to me which means i wait 30 to 40 days and whos to say i get those two babies,i dont want the granite and never really did he offered it if it was in the box great but it wasnt so i chalked it up as a loss,if the babies i sent him died during transport or a few day later i would send him more babies to compensate for that not offer 1 of the geckos he sent me back
Click to expand...

Are you reading the same thread?????????? I offered you the granite free of charge for my mistake of not putting it in the box. And if you dont want whats in the eggs that is fine, but i wanted to offer. I think at this point your being unreasonable and childish, and quite frankly only hurting yourself. If you are not willing to take me up on my offers then let the thread die.
 
pat i may have over reacted saying these are scary skinny i apologize for that i just weighed both females and 1 is 42 grams with its food bowl cleaned out and the other is 33 grams with a full bowl of mealies,ive learned a lesson here and i will never do a transaction again without seeing pics first
 
I would accept your appology if you didnt just try to throw me under the bus in another forum when this one wasnt going your way. Seriously man give them a week or 2, the 33 gram gal just laid. And 42 grams is not exactly missing meals.

WHY couldnt we just come to a agreement before all this BS. Im a very reasonable individual.
 
here are the current weights
004.jpg

006.jpg
 
snared99 said:
I would accept your appology if you didnt just try to throw me under the bus in another forum when this one wasnt going your way. Seriously man give them a week or 2, the 33 gram gal just laid. And 42 grams is not exactly missing meals.

WHY couldnt we just come to a agreement before all this BS. Im a very reasonable individual.
Click to expand...

and i did through text messages yesterday morning, you offered sending babies back i refused that was the only option u give me,i just wanted to put this out here now then rather waiting 2 weeks and you saying well its something i did,to end this pat these geckos turn out good, gain all their weight back and they lay good healthy eggs ill call u up personally and apologize, then come on here and report everything turned out good
 
I think you will find they will be ok. But none the less you are obviously not a satisfied customer, and that is not how I run my business. I have laid out a few options, to which you did not feel were suitable. What would you like to see done to make you satisfied with our trade?? Once again no money will exchange hands.

You originally wanted a G project animal, if that would make you happy I will eat the price and send you one. Please give me some direction as to how to make you happy. Im willing to go above and beyond to show make you happy with the trade. I will give you 24 hours to decide then Im going to retract my offer and consider my generosity not wanted.
 
Jeremy, first off those geckos do not look "overbred" as you stated a couple of pages back. If you have been breeding for 2 years, then you have to be aware of the fact that females, and even sometimes the males, lose weight like this. I have had females that were over 60 grams go down to almost 30 grams during breeding season. I would be happy to have those two in my collection and they will begin putting on weight very soon. Pat has offered several different solutions to your complaint, but honestly I don't think you have anything to complain about. I have done business with Pat and never had any issues. He's one of the best breeders in our hobby.

Pat, I would just hold my ground if I were you. Do not be bullied by this tactic. I can assure you that this one misguided complaint will not harm your reputation in any way.
 
There are some rather obvious lessons that can be learned to avoid future headaches. I'm speaking in general terms and not necessarily talking about anyone in particular- so please don't be offended. I don't know either party, nor have I ever had any transactions with them, but I know they both have good reputations and respect them both mutually.

1. Never rush trades.

2. Always ask numerous questions- pertaining to diet, husbandry, background/history, genetics etc. If the answers are vague, ask for more details. If the answers raise flags, just drop the trade talk and avoid possible drama.

3. Always ask for photos, multiple photos if possible.

4. Last but not least...I don't have any issues with buying and reselling, but quarantine? I know this is a very basic concept, but this can prevent far worst situations then the current one. Having a health guarantee is great for potential customers, but not having enough time to evaluate the health of new animals and possibly exposing your own valuable collection to possible parasites or disease, is in my opinion, not very smart.

Hopefully these tips can help someone in the future.

I hope that both parties can agree to a reasonable solution for this situation.

Good luck gentlemen.

Jon
 
Jon,
You are absolutley correct in your post and thank you for your insite. These particular geckos have not even seen the facility yet. I have a seperate 80 bin rack, and 24 bin rack(large bins), here in my home. I bring all animals here first to be observed and taken care of before getting to go to the facility. I will not deny a couple of these animals (7 to be exact,) came with me to the show in mrytle beach. This is not common practice for us at all, but for such a large show there was pressure for more animals. Those animals didnt sell and are still here at home with me.
Alot of people do under estimate quarantine and its benefits. Again thank you for your post.
 
SFgeckos said:
There are some rather obvious lessons that can be learned to avoid future headaches. I'm speaking in general terms and not necessarily talking about anyone in particular- so please don't be offended. I don't know either party, nor have I ever had any transactions with them, but I know they both have good reputations and respect them both mutually.

1. Never rush trades.

2. Always ask numerous questions- pertaining to diet, husbandry, background/history, genetics etc. If the answers are vague, ask for more details. If the answers raise flags, just drop the trade talk and avoid possible drama.

3. Always ask for photos, multiple photos if possible.

4. Last but not least...I don't have any issues with buying and reselling, but quarantine? I know this is a very basic concept, but this can prevent far worst situations then the current one. Having a health guarantee is great for potential customers, but not having enough time to evaluate the health of new animals and possibly exposing your own valuable collection to possible parasites or disease, is in my opinion, not very smart.

Hopefully these tips can help someone in the future.

I hope that both parties can agree to a reasonable solution for this situation.

Good luck gentlemen.

Jon
Click to expand...

This is a very helpful post. I'd give you karma, but I gave out my whole amount for today.:(
 
Thank you for your honesty Pat. It takes alot of courage to publicly discuss this topic and I admire your willingness to be open and truthful. Good guy in my book!

No need for karma Kristi! Yesterday, in my rush to meet my schedule demands I dropped an expensive jewelry item worth well over $1,000. I backtracked my steps unsuccessfully and figured it was long gone. I got it back today! Someone found it in the parking lot and returned it to the hospital- maximum karma points! =)

Jon
 
snared99 said:
Jon,
You are absolutley correct in your post and thank you for your insite. These particular geckos have not even seen the facility yet. I have a seperate 80 bin rack, and 24 bin rack(large bins), here in my home. I bring all animals here first to be observed and taken care of before getting to go to the facility. I will not deny a couple of these animals (7 to be exact,) came with me to the show in mrytle beach. This is not common practice for us at all, but for such a large show there was pressure for more animals. Those animals didnt sell and are still here at home with me.
Alot of people do under estimate quarantine and its benefits. Again thank you for your post.
Click to expand...

Pat's a good guy. I think that this situation can teach us all to ask specific questions about potential trades/sales. Different people with different levels of experience have different expectations. Good job Pat for offering the G-project male, that says a lot.
 
I was trying to figure out a nice way to say it Jon and you pointed it out. My first thoughts of reading this was. What if I was at the show to get a leo from "Luxurious leopards" and settled on of these trade leos. It seems I would feel ripped off if a the leo had heath issues or I was looking at getting one specifically from the seller from a genetic stand point. How do you know the true genetics of the trade animals you were selling? I would be a little worried to take them to my table unless I was trust worthy of the person that I traded
 
Keith N said:
I was trying to figure out a nice way to say it Jon and you pointed it out. My first thoughts of reading this was. What if I was at the show to get a leo from "Luxurious leopards" and settled on of these trade leos. It seems I would feel ripped off if a the leo had heath issues or I was looking at getting one specifically from the seller from a genetic stand point. How do you know the true genetics of the trade animals you were selling? I would be a little worried to take them to my table unless I was trust worthy of the person that I traded
Click to expand...

Me and jeremy have done past deals and there was no reason for me to question his genetics. In addition, these were base morphs which were easy to ID, not very advanced genetics behind them. Also if someone picked out a gecko we didnt produce they are prevy to that info as well as our guarantee comes with the gecko. It is not uncommon at all for medium to bigger breeders to purchase"show lots" for shows when they are sold out of the lower price geckos. High end geckos do not fly off the tables at local shows so lower end geckos help keep us in business, and still supply great geckos.
 
snared99 said:
Me and jeremy have done past deals and there was no reason for me to question his genetics. In addition, these were base morphs which were easy to ID, not very advanced genetics behind them. Also if someone picked out a gecko we didnt produce they are prevy to that info as well as our guarantee comes with the gecko. It is not uncommon at all for medium to bigger breeders to purchase"show lots" for shows when they are sold out of the lower price geckos. High end geckos do not fly off the tables at local shows so lower end geckos help keep us in business, and still supply great geckos.
Click to expand...

You say you buy show lots but in another post you say all but 7 went to the show. So you still had mostly high end leos at the show to sell? Or did you buy multiple show lots to sell? Its just no different then flipping. You gave something to get something to turn around and sell them. You say you would tell someone they were not yours but would you disclose this information freely before someone asked you? My only concern is when we do shows you get some first time reptile purchasers that come around. What if someone purchased one from you and turns out through no quarantine a health problem doesn't pop up until after you sold it to them. Sounds like your just asking/inviting problems.
 
Keith N said:
You say you buy show lots but in another post you say all but 7 went to the show. So you still had mostly high end leos at the show to sell? Or did you buy multiple show lots to sell? Its just no different then flipping. You gave something to get something to turn around and sell them. You say you would tell someone they were not yours but would you disclose this information freely before someone asked you? My only concern is when we do shows you get some first time reptile purchasers that come around. What if someone purchased one from you and turns out through no quarantine a health problem doesn't pop up until after you sold it to them. Sounds like your just asking/inviting problems.
Click to expand...

As I explained previously it is not common practice for us to bring these lots to shows, especially not without quarantine. All qtine is done here at my house, like explained previously. You make it sound like all we sell at shows is animals we have purchased, which is not the fact. We do produce our own animals. I have worked with alot of first time buyers and have never ran into issue with our geckos. Im very verse in quarantine and issues with exotics, and I can assure you we do not sell unhealthy animals.
 
Keith N said:
You say you buy show lots but in another post you say all but 7 went to the show. So you still had mostly high end leos at the show to sell? Or did you buy multiple show lots to sell? Its just no different then flipping. You gave something to get something to turn around and sell them. You say you would tell someone they were not yours but would you disclose this information freely before someone asked you? My only concern is when we do shows you get some first time reptile purchasers that come around. What if someone purchased one from you and turns out through no quarantine a health problem doesn't pop up until after you sold it to them. Sounds like your just asking/inviting problems.
Click to expand...

Also as jeremy can verify, not all of these animals were meant for resale. Most will be in groups for breeding. Im not sure you understood my post about 'show lots'. Not all low end animals are purchased from others, most are bred at the facilities.
 
I understood "It is not uncommon at all for medium to bigger breeders to purchase"show lots" for shows "
 
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