Restrictive return policies

[Alex G]

asixtwo posted this on a BOI thread:

1) I don't sell them to ANYONE I don't know.
2) I only sell 100% guaranteed hets. Anything that would be a 50% or 66% het as sold strictly as whatever it's visible traits are.
3) I microchip them all.
4) If at any time a customer decides they don't want the animal, I'll buy it back for the original price, plus a feeding allowance.

Payment to be made after the snake has fed, and proved out healthy after a 30 day quarantine.

I didn't want to derail that thread with my thoughts on that, so I started my own.

More and more I'm seeing new or relatively unknown sellers with these increasingly elaborate and restrictive policies for customers who are unsatisfied with their purchase. One lady even had a TOS that flat-out refused any returns out of fear of what could be introduced to her collection. I feel like policies like this likely drive away good customers who feel like their money would be better spent somewhere that didn't require them to jump through hoops just to send back an animal that, for whatever reason, may not be to their liking.

For example, for the above seller, if you receive an animal that's, say, $450, and it comes to you with an RI (I am not saying this seller sends out sick snakes, this is only an example), you cannot get that $450 back for an entire month. I understand that sellers do not want people impulse buying and then having buyers remorse and sending things back all the time, but there is a line between preventing wishy-washy people from wasting time and deterring good buyers from your animals.

I guess I'm just wondering when selling an animal became a game of covering your butt to the point of alienating customers?

 

[hhmoore]

I think you may have misinterpreted that (or I did)....that isn't about returns because of problems noticed upon receipt, it is saying that he will buy back his animals later.
I understand wanting to be sure that any returns are healthy and feeding; but that payment policy seems to cater to the desperate. Most people would just sell outright, IMO.

 

[Magic Merlin]

I love it when I read, "if their is a problem, all details must be kept confidential and discussing said problem on a public forum (BOI) will void any and all health and return guarantees."

 

[asixtwo]

asixtwo posted this on a BOI thread:

I didn't want to derail that thread with my thoughts on that, so I started my own.

More and more I'm seeing new or relatively unknown sellers with these increasingly elaborate and restrictive policies for customers who are unsatisfied with their purchase. One lady even had a TOS that flat-out refused any returns out of fear of what could be introduced to her collection. I feel like policies like this likely drive away good customers who feel like their money would be better spent somewhere that didn't require them to jump through hoops just to send back an animal that, for whatever reason, may not be to their liking.

For example, for the above seller, if you receive an animal that's, say, $450, and it comes to you with an RI (I am not saying this seller sends out sick snakes, this is only an example), you cannot get that $450 back for an entire month. I understand that sellers do not want people impulse buying and then having buyers remorse and sending things back all the time, but there is a line between preventing wishy-washy people from wasting time and deterring good buyers from your animals.

I guess I'm just wondering when selling an animal became a game of covering your butt to the point of alienating customers?

It would have been nice if you actually took the time to read my post.
That policy is basically a LIFETIME GUARANTEE on the genetics of any HET I sell.

Another point you missed in my post is that I DO NOT SHIP SNAKES to the general public.

All my animals healthy and documented at the time of sale.
Prospective buyers always have the opportunity to examine the animal, and see it feed before they make the decision to buy it or not!

And with IBD, crypto and protozoan infections running rampant in some collections, I can completely understand why some breeders won't take back anything.

And while I stated that I'll buy back any HET that passes a 30 day quarantine, no animal that has been in another collection get's reintroduced to mine until after 180 days of quarantine.

 

[asixtwo]

but that payment policy seems to cater to the desperate. Most people would just sell outright, IMO.

What payment policy?

 

[Dennis Hultman]

This must be the day to pick on Andy's posts. But if I was going to chose one it would have been this one.

If you want to be in this hobby here are a few guidelines for you....

1) Avoid shopping online.
All the best animals are sold/traded amongst friends long before they ever become available to the general public.
The animals that are left after all the insider trading happens go to the reptile shows. Everything that's left get's sold online.
I'm not saying you still can't buy decent animals online, but the truly stellar examples are almost always long gone before the ads go online.

That's a heck of a thing to tell someone new to this site. You know a classified website.

 

[asixtwo]

That's a heck of a thing to tell someone new to this site. You know a classified website.

The truth is a "heck of thing" to tell a newbie?

 

[PAVLOVK1025]

The truth is a "heck of thing" to tell a newbie?

No telling them to not shop online when this is an online marketplace.

 

[SpitZu]

More and more I'm seeing new or relatively unknown sellers with these increasingly elaborate and restrictive policies for customers who are unsatisfied with their purchase. One lady even had a TOS that flat-out refused any returns out of fear of what could be introduced to her collection. I feel like policies like this likely drive away good customers who feel like their money would be better spent somewhere that didn't require them to jump through hoops just to send back an animal that, for whatever reason, may not be to their liking.

I was toying around with this idea as well. People are so picky as to who they buy animals from, but don't give a second thought to their own animals that come back to them from random people around the country. Forget that nonsense.

What difference is it to you if this makes me lose potential sales? I could provide a current and clear video of the animal eating, being sexed, and looking healthy, as well as possibly a health certificate from the vet prior to posting it for sale. Don't want to buy from someone with no return policy? Great. I don't mind holding on to an animal until the right buyer is found.

There are many benefits to this policy. Primarily, I wouldn't have to introduce your (potentially) contaminated collection to mine. I don't even want it sitting in my QT room. And as an added bonus, this would get rid of the pests who think that it is okay to send animals back for "whatever reason". Those people can take that buyer's remorse elsewhere and waste someone else's time.

Will this work out? Maybe not, but I think I'm going to give it a shot. I might end up altering the TOS on a case-by-case basis for those very reputable people that I wouldn't mind buying from. Who knows. In any case, again, what do you care what other peoples' TOS looks like?

 

[Lucille]

truth

What you posted was your opinion, not...the *truth*.
It is MY opinion, from seeing some truly beautiful critters for sale on this site, that it is in fact NOT true that there is an absolute, tiered quality system with the online sales coming in last. These days many top quality breeders are advertising their critters online.

And another thing: If you have a good history and a good rep, many people will respectfully listen to what you have to say. But if you waltz in saying your view is the 'truth' and we better sit up and take notice, well good luck with that.

 

[Focal]

The truth is a "heck of thing" to tell a newbie?

It's hardly the truth when it's biased to your own practices:

1) I don't sell them to ANYONE I don't know.

Another point you missed in my post is that I DO NOT SHIP SNAKES to the general public.

All the best animals are sold/traded amongst friends long before they ever become available to the general public.

I think what you meant was, avoid buying from YOU online since that's where all your "bottom of the barrel" specimens end up.

 

[asixtwo]

WOW....
Some of you folks are just so helpful and friendly!

Do any of you honestly believe that the way to move forward in this hobby is to buy animals sight unseen from a website?

It's obvious that some people here are simply concerned with selling their animals. It's laughable for anyone to even suggest that every seller is putting their "A grade" animals online.

I love how anything I post has been transferred to this thread.

Is your concern really for the newbies who can't afford to take a loss on a bad deal, or are you just trying to discourage them from wrapping their brains around the notion that doing business face to face is a better way to do things?

 

[Lucille]

doing business face to face is a better way to do things?

Not.

There is ordinarily no way to meet the number and quality of breeders in person that one can find online.

It is a good thing to see critters 'in person', but unless one can fly all over and go to many of the expos one can see more critters online and have more choices. Expos are good, but then the breeders may advertise in between expos and those might be nice critters.

It used to be more of a risk, but the BOI has brought a measure of safety to online reptile critter purchases, you can note the experience of others and then make up your own mind about vendors.

 

[Alex G]

There are many benefits to this policy.

Yes, indeed there are... for YOU. Not for the buyer if they purchase a male and receive a female. Not for the buyer if they purchase an adult, breedable het and receive a normal. Not for the buyer if they drop a grand on an animal and it comes to them 100 grams smaller than advertised. Once again I am not saying that any of the sellers here do this, just that these are all situations where I, personally, would return the animal for a refund. Regardless of how many benefits there are to your collection by refusing returns or making them almost impossible to negotiate, it is a simply not a customer-friendly policy.

 

[RobNJ]

I have spoken with Andy once in the past(never purchased from him), and in a 2 hour telephone conversation, I have learned more about ball pythons and the workings of the bp market than I have from anyone other than my own personal experience. The guy knows what he's talking about, and I wouldn't hesitate to do business with him, nor would I question his so called "intricate" TOS. Seems he's doing right by his customers while being protective of his own collection.

The topic of top tier animals being moved via insider trading long before they ever hit the market is something I've thought about for quite some time now...and tend to believe to an extent. I have 2-3 people I reach out to when there is something I'm specifically looking for, whether they have that animal advertised as available or not. The reason being is that I've had great experiences buying what I believe to be quality animals from them, and trust them to guide me towards the purchase I am looking to make before I hit the classifieds. Where I tend to stray from this line of thinking, is that there are so many hobbyists out there and some do produce high quality animals with no other means to advertise/sell than online. I've seen some amazing animals posted on here, but believe they are in overwhelming minority. That is not at all to say the majority of animals being sold here or KS or elsewhere online are crap.

 

[lauraleellbp]

I think there's positives and negatives going either way- buying in person or buying online.

I buy most of my herps (which ATM consist entirely of Crested Geckos) online for the following reasons:

The main advantage to going with online is the easy access to massive amounts of information- I can research breeders online much more quickly than in person. With established breeders, I can track animals' genetics back at least one generation if not further. I've invested time on Crested gecko forums researching and pulling up every thread and photo I can find related to geckos I'm interested in. There's several geckos who I can tell you offfhand their entire history and can often ID their offspring at a glance. I track some individual geckos through owners and pairings and get to know everything about their genetics I can.

It's a fascination with genetics that has drawn me into this hobby, and therefore this is something I thoroughly enjoy.

That's not something that would be nearly as easy to do in person. I actually prefer most of the time NOT to buy at an expo since I then can't see parents/grandparents/it's harder to track down individual gecko history. There are only two large Crested Gecko breeders within driving distance to me whose productions interest me- and both of those are at least 2-3 hours away (one is 5 hours- though I did make that trip a few weeks ago since temps right now are way too hot for shipping LOL). So without the online community I would be stuck with a VERY limited gene pool to work with- from a species who already has a relatively limited gene pool to begin with (approximately 200 animals were wild-caught).

I think my point is- it's entirely possible to invest the time and do the homework beforehand to greatly reduce the risks of buying livestock online. And that there actually are some advantages to buying online versus in person.

All that being said- I can certainly understand why some don't want to deal with online sales and feel the need to protect themselves from the various scam and con artists that are also definitely present.

 

[SpitZu]

Yes, indeed there are... for YOU. Not for the buyer if they purchase a male and receive a female. Not for the buyer if they purchase an adult, breedable het and receive a normal. Not for the buyer if they drop a grand on an animal and it comes to them 100 grams smaller than advertised. Once again I am not saying that any of the sellers here do this, just that these are all situations where I, personally, would return the animal for a refund. Regardless of how many benefits there are to your collection by refusing returns or making them almost impossible to negotiate, it is a simply not a customer-friendly policy.

Those are not issues of buyer's remorse... those are the fault of the seller. The purpose of a policy like this wouldn't be to get out of the responsibilities as a seller, though I believe a responsible breeder wouldn't be having issues like that in the first place. Obviously those are silly mistakes that will have to be avoided in order to have a TOS like this in place, or the policy will have to be voided or corrected.

As for your specific examples, wouldn't proving the sex, weight, feeding response/prey item, and health of the animal on video prior to listing be enough to avoid most possibilities of a seller's mistake? Why wouldn't that be enough to purchases an animal as-is? If I was somehow still at fault after all of that, I'd probably try to offer a partial refund or a discount on a different animal, but if that was not possible I'd have no choice but to call it a loss (refund) or agree to the return.

I'm really just trying to think of ways to prevent animals from unknown conditions from coming into contact with my own, because the thought of me losing my collection, especially through no fault of my own, is scary as hell. I thought that preventing wishy-washy people from buying in the first place would prevent most of that risk. Not to mention preventing undue stress to the animal and wasting everyone's time.

 

[hhmoore]

I understand wanting to be sure that any returns are healthy and feeding; but that payment policy seems to cater to the desperate. Most people would just sell outright, IMO.

What payment policy?

Your policy of not making payment until the buy-back has been in your possession for at least 30 days. Most people deciding that they no longer want an animal, would be looking for payment at the time of sale...not a month or more down the road. I'm not necessarily criticizing your policy, just pointing out that most people would opt for the immediate payment of a regular sale.

Do any of you honestly believe that the way to move forward in this hobby is to buy animals sight unseen from a website?

Not everybody has breeders within local driving distance; and, even if they do, it doesn't mean that they want to do business with them.

It's obvious that some people here are simply concerned with selling their animals. It's laughable for anyone to even suggest that every seller is putting their "A grade" animals online.

Nobody said every seller put their top notch stuff online....but it is just as laughable to suggest that no seller puts their "A grade" animals online.
In many cases, the best of the best never get to "the ads" - no argument there; but that doesn't mean that it wasn't start to finish an online transaction.

I love how anything I post has been transferred to this thread.

Is your concern really for the newbies who can't afford to take a loss on a bad deal, or are you just trying to discourage them from wrapping their brains around the notion that doing business face to face is a better way to do things?[/QUOTE]

 

[Dennis Hultman]

WOW....


Do any of you honestly believe that the way to move forward in this hobby is to buy animals sight unseen from a website?

It's obvious that some people here are simply concerned with selling their animals. It's laughable for anyone to even suggest that every seller is putting their "A grade" animals online.

No, that's not what I'm stating and neither were you. I quote, "1) Avoid shopping online."

You didn't suggest being selective with your purchases online. Making sure you know the people you are buying from and looking for quality rather than quantity. Which would be all excellent advice. No, you suggest to a new member of our site not to utilize the services of this site. That I have a problem with. Not only for the great hobbyist on this board and other sites that work hard to develop quality animals but also as a staff member here telling our members not to utilize our services here.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

The topic of top tier animals being moved via insider trading long before they ever hit the market is something I've thought about for quite some time now...

It really depends on who you are buying from. The top few household names or the long list of top quality smaller hobbyists. These people work hard online developing relationships. Not only on here but on other forums as well.

They love sharing their pairings and posting lots of pictures of their clutches and litters. This is how they get their name out there and share their hobby. Sure, friends and acquaintances make offers on animals before they make it to the ads or they are offered to them. That's great. But it's nothing nobody can't get in on.

What I would have suggested to the newbie is participate in the discussion threads and get to know the breeders here. Not simply, "Avoid shopping online".