AN INTERESTING PERSPECTIVE ON BALL PRICING AND THE MARKET

[R. Eventide]

Honestly, I believe most of the price drops are a direct result of the economy. High supply, low demand, for one. But it's also a matter of affordability. Can a small-time breeder afford to keep a snake for a few months and sell at a higher price later as opposed to selling it cheaper earlier (so they don't have to pay for additional months of feeding, etc.)? Some can, but from what I've seen and heard, the vast majority cannot. If/When the economy improves, prices will stabilize and then probably go up at least a little as suddenly more people can afford more snakes and demand increases.

Supply and demand can still work in breeders' favor, though. Look at the price of Enchis over the past few years. A few really cool Enchi combo morphs come out and suddenly the demand increases, which then increases the price.

As more morphs become more common, prices will fall. None of us can stop that. Look at Pieds. The demand for Pieds shot up several years ago, and prices remained somewhat stable (though they still dropped). As a result, now there are Pieds everywhere...and the dropping prices reflect that. Same goes for Spiders and Pastels. Suddenly, everyone wanted to produce Bumblebees, and now Bumblebees are everywhere and the price of all three has tanked.

An example of a somewhat-stable morph is the BEL. I wondered for a couple years why there seemed to be so few BELs, especially considering both their selling price and how many morphs could produce them. There still don't seem to be many on the market, and even though the price has dropped, it hasn't dropped nearly as precipitously as other morphs. Medium supply, medium demand.

I find it amusing that big-time breeders blame it on the little guys. I see big breeders as having two main paths of income: a high quantity of lower-end morphs and small number of exclusive, extremely rare morphs. The former doesn't change, though what morphs fall into that category may (some might not bother with straight-up Pastels anymore, for example). Thing is, their expensive, rare morphs seem to drop even more than the common morphs. A couple years ago, Bananas were going for $65k. The next year, it was down to $30-$35k. How many of the common morphs lose 50% of their value in one year?

I guess my point is that none of us complaining about it (I'm including myself, here, 'cause I complain too) is ever going to change it. Quite frankly, we'd have to get every breeder on board to stabilize prices, and (1) that's never going to happen and (2) even that probably wouldn't work. Big guys, little guys--doesn't matter. We are all part of the lowering prices, whether we like it or not. Breeding snakes introduces more of particular morphs onto the market, no matter what, which will cause the price to drop, most of the time, even in a good economy.

Additionally, I'm not sure about my own feelings on the subject of people undercutting others to make a sale. A year or two ago, I spoke with a friend who's trying to become a professional artist, and she was unhappy that hobby/amateur artists were charging pennies for good-quality work because they weren't trying to make a living off of it--they were just doing it for fun. Is it wrong for them to do that? If so, why? To me, the for-fun people will either run out of time to do it for fun or, if they're good, they'll realize they can make a decent living off of it and start charging more, becoming one of the people whom this person used to undercut. In my [limited] experience, it seems that the people willing to sell BPs very cheap are similarly short-lived. Or, barring that, they become a part of the market that deals in low-end morphs. This is where we have a little bit of a chance to affect prices. Lots of people on here say they would pay more for a high-end morph than a low-end, which means they'll produce high-end morphs, too. If we insist on even slightly higher prices for our better-quality, more healthy snakes than what the typical market price is, we can at least slow the drop a little.

I really hope some of that made sense....

 

[hhmoore]

Can a small-time breeder afford to keep a snake for a few months and sell at a higher price later as opposed to selling it cheaper earlier (so they don't have to pay for additional months of feeding, etc.)? Some can, but from what I've seen and heard, the vast majority cannot.

To this, I say that if a small time breeder cannot afford to keep babies for a few months, they shouldn't have bred the snakes. Simple.

If/When the economy improves, prices will stabilize and then probably go up at least a little as suddenly more people can afford more snakes and demand increases.

Prices do not go back up, unless something new and exciting is discovered, increasing the demand.

Supply and demand can still work in breeders' favor, though. Look at the price of Enchis over the past few years. A few really cool Enchi combo morphs come out and suddenly the demand increases, which then increases the price

They're back down now, and it's harder than ever to find really good ones. The byproduct of higher demand is increased production - at the expense of selective breeding - which results in the market being flooded with lower quality animals.

As more morphs become more common, prices will fall. None of us can stop that. Look at Pieds. The demand for Pieds shot up several years ago, and prices remained somewhat stable (though they still dropped). As a result, now there are Pieds everywhere...and the dropping prices reflect that. Same goes for Spiders and Pastels. Suddenly, everyone wanted to produce Bumblebees, and now Bumblebees are everywhere and the price of all three has tanked.

I'll address this in the next one....but pieds are recessive. They hold their value longer because of the extra time involved in producing them (unless somebody dropped the money on visuals, in which case the investment was significantly higher)

I find it amusing that big-time breeders blame it on the little guys. I see big breeders as having two main paths of income: a high quantity of lower-end morphs and small number of exclusive, extremely rare morphs. The former doesn't change, though what morphs fall into that category may (some might not bother with straight-up Pastels anymore, for example). Thing is, their expensive, rare morphs seem to drop even more than the common morphs. A couple years ago, Bananas were going for $65k. The next year, it was down to $30-$35k. How many of the common morphs lose 50% of their value in one year?

This statement shows you haven't been around long enough. Pastels used to drop 50% pretty much every year; so did spiders, and mojaves, etc. Pastels are a dime a dozen now, but it wasn't that awfully long ago that hatchling female pastels were $2000 (they were probably higher than that, but that is the highest I remember seeing them). The whole Morph King mess with the mojaves was because, after the anticipated price drop, they started posting auctions on Reptibid with lower and lower prices. When people started jumping in, they sold a ton of them....at what was (if I am remembering correctly) another 40% or so below what most people were advertising (which, by that point, was 50% below the previous years price).
Heck, the first time I ever saw bumblebees was in Dec 04, and they carried a $35,000 price tag. I bought baby female spiders at $1000-1100 in early 06. By the time I produced a bee in 09, they were well under the price of the spiders. In just 5 yrs, they went from $35,000 to around $650-750.

Additionally, I'm not sure about my own feelings on the subject of people undercutting others to make a sale. A year or two ago, I spoke with a friend who's trying to become a professional artist, and she was unhappy that hobby/amateur artists were charging pennies for good-quality work because they weren't trying to make a living off of it--they were just doing it for fun. Is it wrong for them to do that? If so, why? To me, the for-fun people will either run out of time to do it for fun or, if they're good, they'll realize they can make a decent living off of it and start charging more, becoming one of the people whom this person used to undercut. In my [limited] experience, it seems that the people willing to sell BPs very cheap are similarly short-lived. Or, barring that, they become a part of the market that deals in low-end morphs. This is where we have a little bit of a chance to affect prices. Lots of people on here say they would pay more for a high-end morph than a low-end, which means they'll produce high-end morphs, too. If we insist on even slightly higher prices for our better-quality, more healthy snakes than what the typical market price is, we can at least slow the drop a little.

It is tough to do tiered pricing in today's market, because such a large portion of the consumer base makes price the bottom line. A lot of people say they will pay more for what they want, but when it's time to lay down the dollars, a lot of them won't. I WILL pay more for quality...but I've walked away over a $10 difference in price/offer (there were circumstances, but they aren't necessarily relevant to this discussion - the snakes were priced at over current market, and I was willing to pay the asking price). Since most customers don't embrace tiered pricing, I've always tended to wholesale my lower quality stuff - the aforementioned effect of that practice aside, it did serve a purpose that was worthwhile to me...it kept my name equated with quality animals, instead of the cheapest stuff in town. Recently, I've taken to selling more of that stuff myself - posting it up with ugly duckling prices along with nicer, more expensive animals.
Anyway, it comes back down to prices don't go back up....the just for fun breeders sell for lower prices - that is why people buy from them. If they raise their prices, most people will just buy from somebody else at a lower price.

 

[B&C Ball Pythons]

This is why we're in this hobby to increase our collection, not to make money. If we do make a lil extra, it's going to go to more animals, racks, thermostats, etc It is sad to see how much prices do drop, but if you're in it to make $ then you're just going to be upset every year. Just my $.02

 

[FireStorm]

There are some interesting thoughts in both articles, though I don't agree 100% with all of them (and I may write a lengthier response later with some other thoughts I had). One thing I do disagree with, though, is this part:

Wholesale prices – Jesus, don’t get me started. Somebody conned the world into believing that wholesale prices are 50% off retail. That’s crap! Wholesalers DO NOT DESERVE 50% MARGIN. You know who decided that it should be 50% off retail? The wholesalers!!! Quit buying into their crap. Demand more money for your production. You do all the work, ALL OF IT, and the wholesaler gets to make the exact same amount as you??? Seriously? Think about it. You think the rest of the world (outside the reptile world) has a 50% margin on their products? Nope. Try 15-20% on average. If you sell an animal at 50% of its retail value you give the person buying it 50% of margin to ruin the going rate. Why wouldn’t he sell it for 80% of the current retail prices? He only paid 50% so he’s making 30% for absolutely nothing. STOP WHOLESALING YOUR ANIMALS FOR 50% OF THEIR VALUE!!! YOU ARE DESTROYING THE MARKET IF YOU DO IT.

First off, a 100% (or more) markup is not at all uncommon in other industries. Heck, I worked in a pet store for a while as a teenager, most of our supplies were marked up at least 100%-150% above the wholesale prices we paid. Now, I'm not saying that everyone should rush out and wholesale their animals for 50% off retail. I can certainly understand why breeders might not want to do that, but I just figured I'd throw that out there.

Second, I don't think it's entirely fair to say that the resellers have nothing invested other than what they pay for the animals. Here's an example:This year I sold a group of normals and a few Pastel males to a semi-local reptile specialty shop at what I would consider to be wholesale prices. He's got a nice shop, and his animals are well cared for, so I'm not worried about the ones I sold him being mistreated. I've kept in touch, and he's already sold several of the animals I sold him in his store and through Facebook auctions. But, he's got the expense of operating a retail store that's open 6 days a week - rent, staff, electricity, advertising.

And, although I could have sold the animals individually for more than what I sold them to him for, I don't feel like I was cheated. Why? Well, to sell a $25 normal (and I've seen them advertised for less) I would either have to sell them online, or locally by putting an ad on craigslist, in the paper, etc. If I sell them online, I'll be shipping them. For me that means an hour round trip to Fedex, and the cost of shipping supplies. Add to that the fact that I charge $50 for shipping but my cost is usually closer to $60. Granted, I could charge more for shipping, but I hate answering endless emails asking for shipping quotes (and so far my experience has been that alot of buyers shy away from higher shipping). So, I'm not making much that way and I have quite a bit of time invested. If I sell locally, I end up arranging my schedule to meet a bunch of people who never show up. For me, that costs me money since if I'm sitting around waiting for them I'm not working (I work when the majority of people have time off). I also don't meet people at my home, so I have some travel time. It's not much, but still...

Anyway, I realize that the articles are geared more towards morph pricing but I just wanted to throw that out there and add my $.02.

 

[Robert Walker]

As I have read through the comments, I have been watching QueenBee male prices for a while. I spent a good effort producing one this year for myself, so I watch the prices to see if "effort & money" is better than just "money" in some cases (putting aside personal satisfaction in making my own). So here are some Queenbee male costs all on Fauna right now:

1.0 Queenbee $1,000
1.0 Queenbee $1,250
1.0 Queenbee $1,500
1.0 Queenbee $2,200
1.0 Queenbee $2,200
1.0 Queenbee $2,300

When I produced mine, the prices were in the $2,300 range 5 months ago. Now look at the crazy differences!

If prices don't go up, looks like 3 gene Queenbee males are now $1,000.

 

[PYTHONS_ONLINE]

I agree, I produce 2 Queenbee males this year, I keep one and I sold the other for 2K, If I have to sold a 3 gene male for 1k, I prefer to my self, I think that sometimes it is better to hold the animals before give them for free, if you can hold them don't make them. just my 2 cent Thanks

As I have read through the comments, I have been watching QueenBee male prices for a while. I spent a good effort producing one this year for myself, so I watch the prices to see if "effort & money" is better than just "money" in some cases (putting aside personal satisfaction in making my own). So here are some Queenbee male costs all on Fauna right now:

1.0 Queenbee $1,000
1.0 Queenbee $1,250
1.0 Queenbee $1,500
1.0 Queenbee $2,200
1.0 Queenbee $2,200
1.0 Queenbee $2,300

When I produced mine, the prices were in the $2,300 range 5 months ago. Now look at the crazy differences!

If prices don't go up, looks like 3 gene Queenbee males are now $1,000.

 

[Robert Walker]

I agree!!

Hold it longer rather than give it away. Longer could mean when all the others aren't selling them too. Wait until there is only one other queen bee selling versus 10 others. Wait until seasonal supply levels are less.

 

[ColinWeaver]

First off, a 100% (or more) markup is not at all uncommon in other industries. Heck, I worked in a pet store for a while as a teenager, most of our supplies were marked up at least 100%-150% above the wholesale prices we paid.

Second, I don't think it's entirely fair to say that the resellers have nothing invested other than what they pay for the animals. Here's an example:This year I sold a group of normals and a few Pastel males to a semi-local reptile specialty shop at what I would consider to be wholesale prices. He's got a nice shop, and his animals are well cared for, so I'm not worried about the ones I sold him being mistreated. I've kept in touch, and he's already sold several of the animals I sold him in his store and through Facebook auctions. But, he's got the expense of operating a retail store that's open 6 days a week - rent, staff, electricity, advertising.

Selling to a pet store is a different thing than selling to another ball python breeder/flipper. If you sell to a pet store at a 50% discount off retail you know they are going to double the price (or more) when they put it on the shelf at their shop. That doubling in price gives them a profit while covering their overhead. They are still selling at close to 100% retail, though.

Selling at a 50% discount to another person who is selling on Kingsnake.com or Facebook or at a reptile trade show is not the same thing as selling to a pet store. They are selling in the same market as you are. You can't expect a positive result when you, as both producer and retailer, are wholesaling to retailers who are selling to the exact same pool of consumers.

The traditional model is for producers to sell to wholesalers to sell to retailers. In the last step, retailers sell to consumers. In the ball python business, the producer is traditionally also the retailer, selling directly to the consumer. Pricing schemes are not designed in the classic way that supports middle men (wholesalers). But some ball python breeders break the pattern. In this business we have retailers (breeders) selling to wholesalers who are selling to consumers. It's all backwards and screwy. Wholesaling direct to consumers is always at a price that is less than what the retailers use. Why? Because wholesalers don't have as much invested as retailers. And the crazy part: In the snake business who supplies the wholesalers? Answer: the retailers.

Colin

 

[hhmoore]

When we had the pet shop, we didn't try mark animals up 100% (I can't comment on fish pricing because I ignored them as much as possible - but, given the losses incurred with fish, I wouldn't be surprised if there was that much markup). If we purchased for $100, it was typically priced at $140-150...maybe a little lower if it was a special order being picked up the same day, or a bit higher if it was something we wanted on display for a little while and didn't care if it sold within a few weeks. Even then, there were too many sources available to buyers for us to try pricing animals the way we did hard goods.

You make a lot of very good points, Colin - I've gone back and read a few other things you've posted on this topic. Next time I see you at a show, I'd like to hang out and talk for a bit (I didn't introduce myself sooner because I was there as a customer - it was nice to see the name click when I finally told you What threw me off on that girl is she didn't quite match the image in my head - I don't think she's the one I'd seen posted. I'm not going to go back and compare, though...I'd hate to decide that I like the other one better)

 

[Method919]

I find this topic fascinating so I thought I'd chime in. Disclaimer: I have yet to produce a ball python egg and am not claiming to know everything about the ball python world, these are only my impressions as of now. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

First, it is the only market I've come across where there is essentially no consumer. This is related to what Colin was saying in his last post. Most breeders sell snakes to other breeders. Hardly anyone is buying an expensive ball python morph for a pet. This creates interesting situations such as a hideous snake being worth 10k because it has 5 morph genes. This also creates a serious problem, which is, we are producing way more snakes than there are people who want pet snakes. That's fine if you want to keep a ton of snakes in your collection, it's not fine if you run out of room and sell the less desirable snakes dirt cheap because there is more supply than demand. This may be controversial, but when do we get to the point where culling a 'normal' male is more morally sound than selling it for 5 dollars to someone with a fishtank?

Second, the ball python market is highly informal. It is pretty rare to see so much haggling and informal discounting (in the US at least). I think this really changes how people approach pricing. When everyone knows that a listed price might not be the price an animal is sold for, it makes the 'market value' much harder to pin down. I personally think this, while it seems awesome, hey everyone is your friend and willing to work with you, is ultimately a negative for everyone. Customers are Expecting deals and it forces sellers to mark up their prices so that they can afford to make deals. This results in naive buyers getting ripped off and general confusion as to what things are worth. I respect sellers who don't budge on their prices.

Third, I think it is absurd that, price wise, there is an 'all animals of a certain morph are created equal' attitude. I have seen some nice pastels, and some UGLY pastels.. why are they priced the same? I think it's time that people stepped back and reevaluated what it is we're paying for when we buy an animal. It is more than a name. To naive buyers maybe any ol mojave will do, but everyone who has looked around knows there's a Huge variety in quality. I think it's time sellers started pricing their animals on their individual quality and not on the morph name. I recently bought a boa from Chris Canada-Smith, and the litter mates were all priced differently according to how nice he perceived them to be. I think this is something that every breeder should do.

Lastly, regarding prices dropping and undercutting the competition: This is something that is almost impossible to avoid. Look up the prisoners dilemma if you haven't heard about it. It is simply a tragedy of the commons type of situation. Of course it would be best for everyone to behave a certain way in the interest of the community, but we're humans, and contrary to popular belief, humans don't always make good decisions.

I have a lot more to say but this is already way too long so I think I'll end with that.

 

[R. Eventide]

To this, I say that if a small time breeder cannot afford to keep babies for a few months, they shouldn't have bred the snakes. Simple.

Oh, I completely agree with you, there. But how many people do it anyway?

Prices do not go back up, unless something new and exciting is discovered, increasing the demand.

They're back down now, and it's harder than ever to find really good ones. The byproduct of higher demand is increased production - at the expense of selective breeding - which results in the market being flooded with lower quality animals.

True. But because breeding ball pythons is so slow, when something new is discovered and the demand goes up, the prices are the first thing to go up. Once people realize the demand is up, then production increases. There's still a brief period between the demand going up and production increasing, though.

I'll address this in the next one....but pieds are recessive. They hold their value longer because of the extra time involved in producing them (unless somebody dropped the money on visuals, in which case the investment was significantly higher)

Also true, for the most part. I've seen some recessives drop like rocks recently, like Genetic Stripes (to my chagrin).

This statement shows you haven't been around long enough. Pastels used to drop 50% pretty much every year; so did spiders, and mojaves, etc. Pastels are a dime a dozen now, but it wasn't that awfully long ago that hatchling female pastels were $2000 (they were probably higher than that, but that is the highest I remember seeing them). The whole Morph King mess with the mojaves was because, after the anticipated price drop, they started posting auctions on Reptibid with lower and lower prices. When people started jumping in, they sold a ton of them....at what was (if I am remembering correctly) another 40% or so below what most people were advertising (which, by that point, was 50% below the previous years price).
Heck, the first time I ever saw bumblebees was in Dec 04, and they carried a $35,000 price tag. I bought baby female spiders at $1000-1100 in early 06. By the time I produced a bee in 09, they were well under the price of the spiders. In just 5 yrs, they went from $35,000 to around $650-750.

Oh, I definitely haven't been around long. No denying that.

But when those 50% price drops on Pastels, Spiders, etc. were occuring, would they have been considered "common" morphs? Currently-common morphs don't seem to go down that fast. (Though, I'm not familiar with the Morph King thing with Mojaves, so that may be an exception.)

It is tough to do tiered pricing in today's market, because such a large portion of the consumer base makes price the bottom line. A lot of people say they will pay more for what they want, but when it's time to lay down the dollars, a lot of them won't. I WILL pay more for quality...but I've walked away over a $10 difference in price/offer (there were circumstances, but they aren't necessarily relevant to this discussion - the snakes were priced at over current market, and I was willing to pay the asking price). Since most customers don't embrace tiered pricing, I've always tended to wholesale my lower quality stuff - the aforementioned effect of that practice aside, it did serve a purpose that was worthwhile to me...it kept my name equated with quality animals, instead of the cheapest stuff in town. Recently, I've taken to selling more of that stuff myself - posting it up with ugly duckling prices along with nicer, more expensive animals.

I can't disagree with you on this, especially the bolded part.

 

[hhmoore]

But when those 50% price drops on Pastels, Spiders, etc. were occuring, would they have been considered "common" morphs? Currently-common morphs don't seem to go down that fast. (Though, I'm not familiar with the Morph King thing with Mojaves, so that may be an exception.)

Codominant morphs have only really been a factor in the BP world since something like 1998; and pastels were the first proven to be genetic. The reality of it is that isn't very long...and they have gone from brand new and amazing to a half step above normals in about 10 yrs. At what point does something become common? There is obviously a correlation between pricing and numbers...but a morph, or species, won't ever achieve "common" status until the price drops low enough to be easily affordable by the average consumer. By that point, rapidly declining prices have to stablize, because you can only reduce something by half so many times before the trick can't be repeated. There weren't a ton of hobbyist breeders doing ball pythons prior to the late 90s...and the people that did breed them were typically able to sell normals fairly easily because captive bred babies fared better than the imports that were found in pet stores. Morph madness (sorry, George) had new BP fans crawling out of the woodwork. I say with all seriousness that I was beyond shocked when - in 2004 - I attended a reptile show for the first time in 6 yrs. There were ball pythons every where, and people wanted them...were PAYING for them. I couldn't believe my eyes. Normal females, close to breeding size, selling for as much as $400. It used to be difficult to give the darn things away, lol.

As far as Morph King - I could give you a quick down & dirty explanation....but it would lose SO much in that translation. There is no way to convey the hostility and defensiveness that defined the camps. The best recommendation I can make is to read the threads, lol.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84876&highlight=*MKR*
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27053&highlight=*MKR*

 

[R. Eventide]

Codominant morphs have only really been a factor in the BP world since something like 1998; and pastels were the first proven to be genetic. The reality of it is that isn't very long...and they have gone from brand new and amazing to a half step above normals in about 10 yrs. At what point does something become common? There is obviously a correlation between pricing and numbers...but a morph, or species, won't ever achieve "common" status until the price drops low enough to be easily affordable by the average consumer. By that point, rapidly declining prices have to stablize, because you can only reduce something by half so many times before the trick can't be repeated. There weren't a ton of hobbyist breeders doing ball pythons prior to the late 90s...and the people that did breed them were typically able to sell normals fairly easily because captive bred babies fared better than the imports that were found in pet stores. Morph madness (sorry, George) had new BP fans crawling out of the woodwork. I say with all seriousness that I was beyond shocked when - in 2004 - I attended a reptile show for the first time in 6 yrs. There were ball pythons every where, and people wanted them...were PAYING for them. I couldn't believe my eyes. Normal females, close to breeding size, selling for as much as $400. It used to be difficult to give the darn things away, lol.

"What is common?" Good point. I guess I'd refer to "common" in terms of breeders, not whether a normal person could afford it. (Or did you mean "average consumer" as in "average breeder"?) Maybe it would be better to refer to something as "uncommon" instead?

It's fascinating to see how things have changed since the first morphs were proven out. Kinda reminds me of computers and computer components, now that I think about it. What's the best and brightest one year is almost nothing a couple years down the road (or even a few months down the road, depending).

As far as Morph King - I could give you a quick down & dirty explanation....but it would lose SO much in that translation. There is no way to convey the hostility and defensiveness that defined the camps. The best recommendation I can make is to read the threads, lol.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84876&highlight=*MKR*
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27053&highlight=*MKR*

Thanks for the links! I've only read a little so far, but I see where it's going....

 

[GREGORY J HALL]

Hold on to your stuff the low ballers will sell out then none will be avaliable then you will get your price.

 

[hhmoore]

I guess I'd refer to "common" in terms of breeders, not whether a normal person could afford it. (Or did you mean "average consumer" as in "average breeder"?) Maybe it would be better to refer to something as "uncommon" instead?

Well, the first morphs started out in the hands of the big guys, and I'd suspect that the first generation or two was kept pretty close. When they were first released for sale, my guess would be that they went to breeder level people - keep in mind that at this stage, there aren't huge numbers of people across the country breeding ball pythons in quantity. This is a relatively new situation, when you look at it over the course of time. There wasn't even a convenient outlet for most people to sell reptiles back then. You could sell locally, at shows (which weren't nearly as frequent then...I pretty sure Hamburg was still once/year when I started going, and I remember the early days of the White Plains show), or sell to/trade with dealers (there were more dealers than breeders back then). There wasn't a kingsnake.com until 1997...before that, you couldn't count on breeders/dealers having websites. Anybody else remember HerpMall, lol? I thought that was the greatest thing back then - I didn't even have a computer until a few years later, but a few friends let me use theirs. Prior to that, it was mostly paper pricelists that mailed monthly....ahhh, nostalgia.
The hobby has changed A LOT....and, as the cliche goes, you kids don't know how good you have it

Back on track , yes....much of the morph trade is now "breeders" selling to "breeders" (I just deleted another lengthy tangent ). So, accordingly, "breeders" ARE the average consumer. At what point will enough hobbyist breeders buy into a morph, that it would be considered common? When there are enough of the morph around that it can be purchased for a price that some portion of the consumer base will pay. That changes. People realize that if they wait until a new morph reaches a price they are comfortable with, they're too late to expect a quick return on the investment; so more and more people are buying in earlier. People that used to buy in at around $500, went to $1000, then $2000.

 

[dustinNMpythons]

Well, the first morphs started out in the hands of the big guys, and I'd suspect that the first generation or two was kept pretty close. When they were first released for sale, my guess would be that they went to breeder level people - keep in mind that at this stage, there aren't huge numbers of people across the country breeding ball pythons in quantity. This is a relatively new situation, when you look at it over the course of time. There wasn't even a convenient outlet for most people to sell reptiles back then. You could sell locally, at shows (which weren't nearly as frequent then...I pretty sure Hamburg was still once/year when I started going, and I remember the early days of the White Plains show), or sell to/trade with dealers (there were more dealers than breeders back then). There wasn't a kingsnake.com until 1997...before that, you couldn't count on breeders/dealers having websites. Anybody else remember HerpMall, lol? I thought that was the greatest thing back then - I didn't even have a computer until a few years later, but a few friends let me use theirs. Prior to that, it was mostly paper pricelists that mailed monthly....ahhh, nostalgia.
The hobby has changed A LOT....and, as the cliche goes, you kids don't know how good you have it

Back on track , yes....much of the morph trade is now "breeders" selling to "breeders" (I just deleted another lengthy tangent ). So, accordingly, "breeders" ARE the average consumer. At what point will enough hobbyist breeders buy into a morph, that it would be considered common? When there are enough of the morph around that it can be purchased for a price that some portion of the consumer base will pay. That changes. People realize that if they wait until a new morph reaches a price they are comfortable with, they're too late to expect a quick return on the investment; so more and more people are buying in earlier. People that used to buy in at around $500, went to $1000, then $2000.

And now I see people on here that I've never heard of or seen on any other forum showing off their new soul suckers among many other high end combos and I'm sitting here thinking HOLY WHERE DID YOU COME FROM but you are exactly right Harold. Not sure where it will take the market but obviously people are figuring out they have to buy in early if they want a return investment. The market will continue to grow as long as new people continue to filter in otherwise eventually the supply will overrun the demand. I'm pretty new still myself I've been into reptiles since 07ish and joined here in 09 but your right on how much changes so fast!

 

[dumje]

wow...I remember the paper price lists...I remember going to the Orlando show and going to all the tables and asking foir their pricelists...I couldnt afford much of it back then...but I just wanted to know what was out there...I picked up my 1st Pastel in 2004...Ive been primarily dealing with Balls ever since....now I have a few Kingsnakes and I still have my Tortoises....

 

[R. Eventide]

Well, the first morphs started out in the hands of the big guys, and I'd suspect that the first generation or two was kept pretty close. When they were first released for sale, my guess would be that they went to breeder level people - keep in mind that at this stage, there aren't huge numbers of people across the country breeding ball pythons in quantity. This is a relatively new situation, when you look at it over the course of time. There wasn't even a convenient outlet for most people to sell reptiles back then. You could sell locally, at shows (which weren't nearly as frequent then...I pretty sure Hamburg was still once/year when I started going, and I remember the early days of the White Plains show), or sell to/trade with dealers (there were more dealers than breeders back then). There wasn't a kingsnake.com until 1997...before that, you couldn't count on breeders/dealers having websites. Anybody else remember HerpMall, lol? I thought that was the greatest thing back then - I didn't even have a computer until a few years later, but a few friends let me use theirs. Prior to that, it was mostly paper pricelists that mailed monthly....ahhh, nostalgia.
The hobby has changed A LOT....and, as the cliche goes, you kids don't know how good you have it

Back on track , yes....much of the morph trade is now "breeders" selling to "breeders" (I just deleted another lengthy tangent ). So, accordingly, "breeders" ARE the average consumer. At what point will enough hobbyist breeders buy into a morph, that it would be considered common? When there are enough of the morph around that it can be purchased for a price that some portion of the consumer base will pay. That changes. People realize that if they wait until a new morph reaches a price they are comfortable with, they're too late to expect a quick return on the investment; so more and more people are buying in earlier. People that used to buy in at around $500, went to $1000, then $2000.

Very cool. I like hearing about the history of herpetoculture, so feel free to go off on "lengthy tangents."

Have you seen what the effects have been of more people buying in to the higher-price morphs than before? Have there been any major effects?

Oh, and I definitely know how good we have it! I may be young, but I grew up both before and during the time the Internet was becoming more widespread. I remember playing games from 5-inch floppies on our old Apple II GS. Great time to grow up and see the massive changes over the course of a couple decades.

 

[holtzinger76]

Check the Genetic Stripes $ bottom center and the sticker price on the Spotnose that was just 4 years ago.

http://www.baileyreptiles.com/arlington07.html

 

[garweft]

People realize that if they wait until a new morph reaches a price they are comfortable with, they're too late to expect a quick return on the investment; so more and more people are buying in earlier. People that used to buy in at around $500, went to $1000, then $2000.

Pretty hard to make a quick return there too....