Bad Guy Casey Smith. Buyer Backs Out, what do you guys think?

[TraceH]

Sorry about the title, I kind of wanted to garner some attention to see how I should handle this situation. Hope that is OK? In short, a man named Casey Smith asked to buy 2 snakes from me on a payment plan. I told him I would hold them with a 25% nonrefundable down payment for 1 month. He agreed and sent me $60 through paypal. Well, roughly 10 weeks goes by and the only time I hear from him is about every 3 weeks when I ask if he'd like to make another payment, he usually has an excuse about his hours being cut at work or his car payment. In the course of this time I sold out of the siblings of the animals I was holding for him at numerous reptile shows and internet sales. Finally, I told him he has to make another payment on these animals this week or I can't hold them any longer. He claims his wife was in the hospital and he can't buy the snakes. Now, the guy that I could never really get a hold of is blowing up my email asking for me to give him his $60 back.

So, fauna members, what do I do? I don't want to stand in the way of medical bills but I have a feeling he is lying about this and just wants his cash back. Should I forgive and forget or teach this guy a lesson and keep his money, which is technically what he agreed I could do! I mean he made me lose sales, cost me money by feeding and house extra snakes longer than necessary and he's been a burden in my already busy (full time school and work and 100s of snakes to care for) life!

Below I will attach all the correspondence between us (some are emails, some are instant messages)..

Sep 06 3:11 PM
caseylsmith83:did you receive the pic of the rainbow boa that i like

Sep 06 3:14 PM
Trace Hardin:yes. i can only hold animals if i have a 25% down payment though and then for only a month or so

Sep 06 3:16 PM
caseylsmith83:how much would it be for the two of em so i can get the money two you

Sep 06 3:17 PM
caseylsmith83:and i was wanting to know if the het can be bred with a fireball ball python

Sep 06 3:33 PM
Trace Hardin:red-9 is $125 and the het male is $125. That comes out to $250, I'll knock the price down to $225 plus shipping.

Sep 06 3:33 PM
Trace Hardin:The blood can be bred with a ball python to produce a hybrid but it is difficult to do, not many of them are produced and they are different species.

Sep 10 3:50 PM
caseylsmith83:I sent you a down payment on the het-5 and the red9

Sep 10 9:32 PM
caseylsmith83:i might be able to send another 100.00 friday i have to see how much my check is for sure if not 100 at least 50

Sep 10 9:59 PM
Trace Hardin:Awesome, thank you very much

Sep 10 11:22 PM
caseylsmith83:so i owe you an even two hundred

Sep 10 11:22 PM
caseylsmith83:but i was wanting to know hoe long is the red 9

Sep 10 11:23 PM
caseylsmith83:and how long is the het 5

Sep 11 6:57 AM
Trace Hardin:Yes an even 200. Both snakes are still babies, they're about 8-10" but growing fast

From: Trace Hardin <[email protected]>
To: Casey Smith <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 8:21 AM
Subject: Re:
Hey Casey,
Haven't heard from you in awhile, I was just checking in. Your blood and rainbow boa are doing great and eating like champs still.
Take care,
Trace

FROM:Casey Smith
TO:Trace Hardin
Message flagged Thursday, September 29, 2011 2:03 PMMessage body
i have to gather up the money for them but i should have it tommorow if not two hundred i should have one hundred for you

From: Casey Smith <[email protected]>
To: Trace Hardin <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 2:24 PM
Subject: Re:
is the blood a python or boa

From: Trace Hardin <[email protected]>
To: Casey Smith <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 3:15 PM
Subject: Re:
I didn't mean to rush you or anything. I just wanted to check in with you. The blood is a python.
Take care,
Trace

Oct 18 1:52 PM
Trace Hardin:Haven't heard from you in awhile. Are you going to try and send a payment soon? The snakes you have sitting aside are doing great and growing quickly.

From: Casey Smiith <[email protected]>
To: Trace Hardin <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: I have a new Yahoo! email address
my job has been running short hours for the last few weeks but i think it will be running 40 plus next week

Re: I have a new Yahoo! email address
FROM:Trace Hardin
TO:Casey Smiith
Message flagged Sunday, October 30, 2011 5:41 PMMessage body
Casey, are you still interested in these snakes I'm holding for you? It's been about 2 months since the first payment. I am working a reptile show next Sunday and if you decide you'd rather pass on the snakes it would be nice to be able to take them with me to resell. If there is anyway you can make a payment this week it would mean a lot.
Thanks again,
Trace

Re: I have a new Yahoo! email address
FROM:Casey Smiith
TO:Trace Hardin
Message flagged Sunday, October 30, 2011 10:12 PMMessage body
you can sell those two snakes cause i have been paying hospital bill cause my wife had her apendix taken out so i wont be able to pay for them right away if you need to sell them go ahead but would you put the first payment i made back in my paypal account

Oct 30 10:15 PM
kclsmith1983:are you online

Oct 30 10:24 PM
kclsmith1983:if you are able to put the 60 back in my paypal it would help me out alot

Oct 31 2:19 PM
kclsmith1983:hello

Oct 31 2:25 PM
kclsmith1983:are yo there

Oct 31 2:29 PM
kclsmith1983:i you want yo can sell them two cause im still paying hospital bills for my wife caus of her surgery that was done before i could pay you for the snakes



So, what do you guys think? Should I be the nice guy, should I have him prove to me his wife had surgery, should I tell him how he screwed me and this will be a lesson for wasting hobbyists time?

 

[TraceH]

oops, my math is a little fuzzy. He agreed to terms 9/10 and backed out 10/30 that's about 7-8 weeks not 10.

 

[YANKFANTHOM]

Sorry about the title, I kind of wanted to garner some attention to see how I should handle this situation. Hope that is OK? In short, a man named Casey Smith asked to buy 2 snakes from me on a payment plan. I told him I would hold them with a 25% nonrefundable down payment for 1 month. He agreed and sent me $60 through paypal. Well, roughly 10 weeks goes by and the only time I hear from him is about every 3 weeks when I ask if he'd like to make another payment, he usually has an excuse about his hours being cut at work or his car payment. In the course of this time I sold out of the siblings of the animals I was holding for him at numerous reptile shows and internet sales. Finally, I told him he has to make another payment on these animals this week or I can't hold them any longer. He claims his wife was in the hospital and he can't buy the snakes. Now, the guy that I could never really get a hold of is blowing up my email asking for me to give him his $60 back.

So, fauna members, what do I do? I don't want to stand in the way of medical bills but I have a feeling he is lying about this and just wants his cash back. Should I forgive and forget or teach this guy a lesson and keep his money, which is technically what he agreed I could do! I mean he made me lose sales, cost me money by feeding and house extra snakes longer than necessary and he's been a burden in my already busy (full time school and work and 100s of snakes to care for) life!

Below I will attach all the correspondence between us (some are emails, some are instant messages)..

Sep 06 3:11 PM
caseylsmith83:did you receive the pic of the rainbow boa that i like

Sep 06 3:14 PM
Trace Hardin:yes. i can only hold animals if i have a 25% down payment though and then for only a month or so

Sep 06 3:16 PM
caseylsmith83:how much would it be for the two of em so i can get the money two you

Sep 06 3:17 PM
caseylsmith83:and i was wanting to know if the het can be bred with a fireball ball python

Sep 06 3:33 PM
Trace Hardin:red-9 is $125 and the het male is $125. That comes out to $250, I'll knock the price down to $225 plus shipping.

Sep 06 3:33 PM
Trace Hardin:The blood can be bred with a ball python to produce a hybrid but it is difficult to do, not many of them are produced and they are different species.

Sep 10 3:50 PM
caseylsmith83:I sent you a down payment on the het-5 and the red9

Sep 10 9:32 PM
caseylsmith83:i might be able to send another 100.00 friday i have to see how much my check is for sure if not 100 at least 50

Sep 10 9:59 PM
Trace Hardin:Awesome, thank you very much

Sep 10 11:22 PM
caseylsmith83:so i owe you an even two hundred

Sep 10 11:22 PM
caseylsmith83:but i was wanting to know hoe long is the red 9

Sep 10 11:23 PM
caseylsmith83:and how long is the het 5

Sep 11 6:57 AM
Trace Hardin:Yes an even 200. Both snakes are still babies, they're about 8-10" but growing fast

From: Trace Hardin <[email protected]>
To: Casey Smith <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 8:21 AM
Subject: Re:
Hey Casey,
Haven't heard from you in awhile, I was just checking in. Your blood and rainbow boa are doing great and eating like champs still.
Take care,
Trace

FROM:Casey Smith
TO:Trace Hardin
Message flagged Thursday, September 29, 2011 2:03 PMMessage body
i have to gather up the money for them but i should have it tommorow if not two hundred i should have one hundred for you

From: Casey Smith <[email protected]>
To: Trace Hardin <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 2:24 PM
Subject: Re:
is the blood a python or boa

From: Trace Hardin <[email protected]>
To: Casey Smith <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 3:15 PM
Subject: Re:
I didn't mean to rush you or anything. I just wanted to check in with you. The blood is a python.
Take care,
Trace

Oct 18 1:52 PM
Trace Hardin:Haven't heard from you in awhile. Are you going to try and send a payment soon? The snakes you have sitting aside are doing great and growing quickly.

From: Casey Smiith <[email protected]>
To: Trace Hardin <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: I have a new Yahoo! email address
my job has been running short hours for the last few weeks but i think it will be running 40 plus next week

Re: I have a new Yahoo! email address
FROM:Trace Hardin
TO:Casey Smiith
Message flagged Sunday, October 30, 2011 5:41 PMMessage body
Casey, are you still interested in these snakes I'm holding for you? It's been about 2 months since the first payment. I am working a reptile show next Sunday and if you decide you'd rather pass on the snakes it would be nice to be able to take them with me to resell. If there is anyway you can make a payment this week it would mean a lot.
Thanks again,
Trace

Re: I have a new Yahoo! email address
FROM:Casey Smiith
TO:Trace Hardin
Message flagged Sunday, October 30, 2011 10:12 PMMessage body
you can sell those two snakes cause i have been paying hospital bill cause my wife had her apendix taken out so i wont be able to pay for them right away if you need to sell them go ahead but would you put the first payment i made back in my paypal account

Oct 30 10:15 PM
kclsmith1983:are you online

Oct 30 10:24 PM
kclsmith1983:if you are able to put the 60 back in my paypal it would help me out alot

Oct 31 2:19 PM
kclsmith1983:hello

Oct 31 2:25 PM
kclsmith1983:are yo there

Oct 31 2:29 PM
kclsmith1983:i you want yo can sell them two cause im still paying hospital bills for my wife caus of her surgery that was done before i could pay you for the snakes



So, what do you guys think? Should I be the nice guy, should I have him prove to me his wife had surgery, should I tell him how he screwed me and this will be a lesson for wasting hobbyists time?

I mean an agreement is an agreement and your terms came and past. You want to be sympathetic but you also have interests to watch. Like how many feeders did you go through while holding these guys? I wouldn't be refunding anything if it were me.

 

[Chris577]

Well IMO to start with I don't think this comes even close to warrant a bad guy thread. No I don't think you should give him his money back. Those are his issues and not yours. It really doesn't matter if he is lying or not he paid the money for the deposit and he did not come through. His personal issues are his problems not yours. Judging by some of the questions he was asking you I'm kinda glad he didn't come through with the money.

 

[reptilebaby]

No, you don't need to do anything except resell the animals. You had a nonrefundable deposit and he knew that. I personally think that it's a bit fishy with something being wrong every time he contacts you, but on the other hand stuff does happen. Sometimes ALOT of stuff happens in a short space of time.

This really didn't deserve a bad guy thread. It's been said before that this happens all the time to people, with a buyer backing out, although not something I myself would ever do. If I say I want something then I follow through.

 

[reptilebaby]

I would just tell him that if he's no longer wanting to buy them, politely tell him that they'll be going back up for sale and remind him that the nonrefundable deposit is not going to be returned. Maybe say if he wants a snake down the road that you'd be willing to put that deposit down on that snake for him. That'd be a "nice guy" thing to do.

 

[illbeyoursoldier]

I think that if it was written or stated somewhere that the deposit is non-refundable, you politely apologize and tell him no. However, you might be in a rock and a hard place since you never really stated that the deposit is non-refundable. Unless I missed that somewhere?

"Sep 06 3:14 PM
Trace Hardin:yes. i can only hold animals if i have a 25% down payment though and then for only a month or so"

I mean, it can be assumed that the deposit is non-refundable, but it doesn't actually say that you specificall said that here... It just says "down payment." Unless you have it on a website or something maybe?

 

[MrsWTownsend]

I am going to play devils advocate for a minute. Do you have a written TOS somewhere? In this set of correspondence I do not see where it is stated that the down payment is non-refundable.

That having been said, both agreed to one month for payment in full. Common knowledge says one month = 4 weeks and generally at least some percentage of a deposit is non-refundable (if not all) in most business practices.

It is hard for me to believe that this would actually go to court over $60 but if it did, where would your legal position be without having explicitly clarified that [any or all of] the deposit is non-refundable? Would you say that the cost to house and feed these animals over the course of the 9 weeks that you held them totaled $60? Retaining the dollar amount for your cost to care for the animals while being held seems very fair IMO and is, hopefully, equal to or less than $60.

As far as making a bad guy thread about this person to ask advice, I can't say I agree with that methodology. At any rate, I hope it can be resolved amicably.

 

[Wilomn]

Now that you've heard opinions, time to make up your mind.

Here's my opinion for what it's worth.

Don't apologize. You didn't do anything wrong, why be a wuss?

Stick to your terms. He was BSing you for weeks. If he had car payments that he was so close to not making and a job that was so tenuous, he shouldn't have been making purchases at all, much less on time.

If he agreed to 30 days or 4 weeks or whatever, he agreed to it. Period.

 

[Lucille]

I have a soft spot in my heart for people that get ill, since I am a nurse. However, I also have heard too many times that because it does grab heartstrings, it is one of the lies of choice for those who persuade with lies.

What would I do? I'd ask for a copy of her hospital admission paper, just the top copy, nothing with a lot of personal stuff, just the name, hospital, date.

If he could send or fax that, I'd give him his 60 back. Yeah, I know, you've been feeding them. But jeez, the hospital and all, and if it was for real and he was in a bind, if he ever dug his way out and wanted another snake he may well come back to you.

If he acted all shocked that you would ask, or refused the info, I'd send zip.

Not everyone would do this, but you did ask what we thought....

 

[Lucille]

And I'd write up a future TOS with the word 'nonrefundable' in it

 

[hhmoore]

This is exactly why I hate payment plans. Some people really do enter them with the best of intentions, and pay them off within the established time frame....unfortunately, most of those people don't find me. I would say that fewer than 40% of the people that have initiated payment plans with me have followed them to completion (a big thank you, to those that did!). I DO have terms that very clearly state that the deposit is not refundable...heck, I take it one step further

If payment is not received by the required date; the animal(s) will be considered available for sale, and all monies will become the property of KBI Herpetoculture.
The only time a deposit will be refunded is if I am unable to provide the animal.

That point made - as long as the buyer is forthcoming with the fact that he/she is unable to make the payments, I typically do not keep the deposit. The few times that I did retain the deposit, or some portion of it, were because the person screwed around for an extended period of time with idle promises.

 

[hhmoore]

I probably should have included the opening statement of that section:
- Upon request, and receipt of a 25%, non-refundable deposit; I will hold....

 

[hhmoore]

hmmm - looking at it in print, I need to edit that piece & correct the punctuation

 

[JudyC]

So, fauna members, what do I do? I don't want to stand in the way of medical bills but I have a feeling he is lying about this and just wants his cash back. Should I forgive and forget or teach this guy a lesson and keep his money, which is technically what he agreed I could do!

If you have to ASK if you should be "forgiving" then it sounds to me like you already know you don't want to be. If you're truly compelled by those alleged medical bills and feel bad for the guy, you don't have to ask permission from anyone else to do a nice thing.

It's also not your job to teach him any lessons. Just do what is right for rightness's sake. If he knowingly agreed to a non-refundable deposit, then you are well within your rights to keep it and put the animals up for sale. It's not a moral dilemma.

If your terms about the state of the deposit were not clear, then you may want to consider how important that $60 really is to you. Is it worth a drawn out public fight? That's up to you to decide.

I agree with the idea of telling him you're happy to apply that deposit to a future purchase if he should choose to make one some day. Seems like a decent compromise. But if the non-refundable nature was agreed upon, then you're not in a position of having to compromise anything if you don't wish to.

 

[TriangleReptiles]

If the details in your initial post were all that were conveyed to the buyer, I would refund the $60.00, simply because nowhere did you specify that the deposit was non-refundable. Next time, be clear with your terms, and abide by them.

 

[deborahbroadus]

If you have to ASK if you should be "forgiving" then it sounds to me like you already know you don't want to be. If you're truly compelled by those alleged medical bills and feel bad for the guy, you don't have to ask permission from anyone else to do a nice thing.

It's also not your job to teach him any lessons. Just do what is right for rightness's sake. If he knowingly agreed to a non-refundable deposit, then you are well within your rights to keep it and put the animals up for sale. It's not a moral dilemma.

If your terms about the state of the deposit were not clear, then you may want to consider how important that $60 really is to you. Is it worth a drawn out public fight? That's up to you to decide.

I agree with the idea of telling him you're happy to apply that deposit to a future purchase if he should choose to make one some day. Seems like a decent compromise. But if the non-refundable nature was agreed upon, then you're not in a position of having to compromise anything if you don't wish to.

I agree.

 

[tracycandy]

Looks like Trace does have a TOS on his website and it states a non-refundable deposit is required to hold animals:

http://hardinherpetologica.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4&Itemid=19

 

[TraceH]

Thank you Tracy for beating me to the punch, on my website where Casey found the snakes it is clearly stated that the down payment is non-refundable. I really like Lucille's suggestion, I think I will try and be a good guy and ask for a form that shows she was admitted to the hospital. Also, concerning my use of the "bad guy" button, I apologize. This is actually the first time I've had to make one of these posts and didn't realize you could choose anything besides bad or good. Thanks again guys, I'll keep you all posted!

 

[TraceH]

From: Casey Smiith <[email protected]>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2011 12:40 PM
Subject: reguarding the snakes
hello my wife had to have an apendix operation on the 8th and that is why i havent been able to pay you for them i was wondering if you can put the money back in the paypal account and later on i will when i get the full payment in the futher will get a snake from you all im asking you is if you can put the 60 back on the account for now thank you very much casey smith

Re: reguarding the snakes
FROM:Trace Hardin
TO:Casey Smiith
Message flagged Tuesday, November 1, 2011 4:06 PMMessage body
Casey, unfortunately this is why I wrote on my website under the terms that the down payment is nonrefundable. I have had quite a few people in the past agree to snakes and then back out for one reason or another leaving me to have housed the snakes for months, missed sales and bear the burden. I don't want to get in the way of medical bills however so is there anyway you can prove to me that your wife was admitted to the hospital to have her appendix removed? I just need some sort of documentation that shows the name of the hospital, your wife's name and the date. You can scan and email or fax me the document. If you can prove that something bad has befallen you, like your wife needing surgery I will pay you the money back. If you can't prove that than I will have to keep the money but will gladly apply it towards future credit if you ever want to buy a snake from me again.
I hope you agree this is the only fair way to deal with this situation.
Take care,
Trace