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At what point does a false BOI thread justify Libel?

Jesse Van Atta

Jesse Van Atta

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Buyer starts BOI thread stating seller is a liar in the title and original post. Ultimately seller is deemed to not have been forthwith to buyers beckon whim, but NOT a liar. The thread is there for good, though, and likely will be damaging to the seller's business.

Is there any recourse at all? Have moderators ever pulled a spurious post against a seller when it was obviously unwarranted? Or it just is what it is?

And regarding the thread I'm referring to, what do most consider acceptable lineage papers?
 
If someone tells me that they will do something, not only once, but twice (and they don't do it)...I consider them a liar. I may not tell the world that they are liars, but that's what my experience and instincts/intitution will be telling me. However, for a case to be made, the plaintiff (not the defendant) will have the burden of proving INTENT (to hurt the business) and Untruthfulness of the word according to the legal definition (not anyone's feelings.)

Lineage is MORE THAN THE PARENTS. A Parents only document is the "Pairing" that went into producing the current animal (to be technical).
 
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deborahbroadus said:
If someone tells me that they will do something, not only once, but twice (and they don't do it)...I consider them a liar. I may not tell the world that they are liars, but that's what my experience and instincts/intitution will be telling me. However, for a case to be made, the plaintiff (not the defendant) will have the burden of proving INTENT (to hurt the business) and Untruthfulness of the word according to the legal definition (not anyone's feelings.)

Lineage is MORE THAN THE PARENTS. A Parents only document is the "Pairing" that went into producing the current animal (to be technical).
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Exactly.
Jesse...let it go. I understand asking questions to clarify things but it seems as though you are truly bothered...:rolleyes:
 
Jesse Van Atta said:
Buyer starts BOI thread stating seller is a liar in the title and original post. Ultimately seller is deemed to not have been forthwith to buyers beckon whim, but NOT a liar. The thread is there for good, though, and likely will be damaging to the seller's business.

Is there any recourse at all? Have moderators ever pulled a spurious post against a seller when it was obviously unwarranted? Or it just is what it is?

And regarding the thread I'm referring to, what do most consider acceptable lineage papers?
Click to expand...

Have moderators ever pulled a spurious post against a seller when it was obviously unwarranted?
Click to expand...
Unless the thread violated a rule, we do not make that determination. "Obviously unwarranted" is still subjective.

At what point does a false BOI thread justify Libel?
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Subject to individual opinion, unless you obtain a legal remedy in favor of that position.
 
And regarding the thread I'm referring to, what do most consider
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I will stop the quote right there to answer the previous questions in regards to that thread.

Some people on that thread agree that it is unwarranted as you. Some don't.
As a individual I or any moderator may have a position and express it. We may agree with you or not and even state it as individuals on the thread. In that respect, it still wouldn't be the position of the WEBSITE. Just our individual opinions.

Let's just state that we all agreed with you. If we deleted the thread for that reason, we would be opening the site up to liability for the decision.
Rules for Posting on the BOI <-- REQUIRED READING!! (updated 12/30/09)
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http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8880
I expect I will get a number of requests from people asking me to delete some message that someone else has posted about them that is rather unflattering. Bear in mind that I cannot, and WILL not be a judge in these matters. Your word will carry no more weight than the other person's word, whether I know you personally or not. All of these types of requests will be refused,
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Jesse - I moved your response to a new thread, because it was taken to a topic which I felt would get better discussion with a related title. I would have split your response, leaving half here, and half there, but I didn't want to make any changes to your post. My apologies for any confusion this may cause.
 
Jesse Van Atta said:
Buyer starts BOI thread stating seller is a liar in the title and original post. Ultimately seller is deemed to not have been forthwith to buyers beckon whim, but NOT a liar. ...
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Ultimately YOU have deemed him to be "not a liar"...but that is far from true about everyone who has read that thread. Who's opinions should count when it comes to determining if such a thread should stay or go? Why should yours count more than Deborah's, for instance?

Yeah...it sucks to have unwarranted threads show up on the BOI. But at what point a thread becomes warranted is up to a tremendous amount of personal interpretation. The integrity of the BOI stays intact BECAUSE the site does not judge these matters. It's up to the readers to do the judging.
 
deborahbroadus said:
If someone tells me that they will do something, not only once, but twice (and they don't do it)...I consider them a liar. I may not tell the world that they are liars, but that's what my experience and instincts/intitution will be telling me. However, for a case to be made, the plaintiff (not the defendant) will have the burden of proving INTENT (to hurt the business) and Untruthfulness of the word according to the legal definition (not anyone's feelings.)

Lineage is MORE THAN THE PARENTS. A Parents only document is the "Pairing" that went into producing the current animal (to be technical).
Click to expand...

Ok, but this is between you and someone else. I think you have enougt sense to have established what you needed before purchasing. Ask for it in an email and save it for your records. Calling "liar" on a public forum should be a last ditch effort after all other avenues have been exhausted. This was not the case, as the term "Liar" only applies to the customer's unhappiness of the time frame he did not receive what was requested, and only clarified after the sale.

From what I saw of the OP in the thread, malicious intent was intended upon the seller. I agree proving libel or defamation of character would be near impossible and not worth the effort, but that is exactly what it is.

BTW Deb..... Do you live here? It really seems that way. Just curious. I hate to compare you to Chris the troll, but there are some strong similarities. You just seem a little more methodical, and a little less warped.
 
radera5 said:
Exactly.
Jesse...let it go. I understand asking questions to clarify things but it seems as though you are truly bothered...:rolleyes:
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I am bothered. This was someone's livelyhood. And you roll eyes.

My questions here were legit, and Dennis did a great job to answer them. I completely get the stance of the website.

I also get your stance as well. Anything Deb says gets a big :iagree:.

Do you guys have matching "Fauna Police" t-shirts? I suggest one for everyone in your little club.
 
JudyC said:
Ultimately YOU have deemed him to be "not a liar"...but that is far from true about everyone who has read that thread. Who's opinions should count when it comes to determining if such a thread should stay or go? Why should yours count more than Deborah's, for instance?

Yeah...it sucks to have unwarranted threads show up on the BOI. But at what point a thread becomes warranted is up to a tremendous amount of personal interpretation. The integrity of the BOI stays intact BECAUSE the site does not judge these matters. It's up to the readers to do the judging.
Click to expand...


Everyone's opinions count to themselves. Those walking away from that thinking the seller did wrong have that right, just as I have the right to think otherwise. Take away the mass of discussion on the subject matter of the thread, and you are left with a bitter customer who posted with malice over something that could have been remedied easily. Now most will see a HUGE thread about the seller, and many will assume bad guy without even reading: OP's mission accomplished, and corraberated by many, including myself with nothing more than discussions that belonged here.

I get keeping it there regardless, though. Thanks for your response.
 
There's obviously varying opinions on what constitutes "lineage papers". There's varying opinions on whether anyone lied, or if they simply forgot and said they would send the papers when they got home. There was lies on the side of the OP with how long times were and whether he recieved anything, vs whether he recieved paperwork not up to his standards.

All this opinions mean that 'sure' someone can sue. Can they WIN? Probably not. Since most of this is opinions and the sue-r would have to prove damage, and there's truth on both sides, and untruth on both sides, any judge would 'probably' throw the case out. So it would depend on what Judge you ended up with, whether you would get a lawsuit heard and/or decided on.

I've been around Fauna a while, and while my opinions often are the same as other long time Fauna members, they are not always the same. While I agree with Deb in many spots, I don't agree with her always, just like I don't agree with anyone here always. In this particular case, I don't agree with her definition of "lineage papers". That doesn't mean I'm going to start wailing conspiracy theories of a cabal of those "on the inside" who all oppose everything I believe in. Nor does it mean I'll insult her for having a different opinion. Sometimes folks have differing opinions and it doesn't mean one is WRONG and the other is RIGHT. It means there's different ways to look at a situation. That's something that grown-ups understand. You can disagree without either of you being wrong, and without it being a fight or descending to insults.
 
Jesse Van Atta said:
I am bothered. This was someone's livelyhood. And you roll eyes.

My questions here were legit, and Dennis did a great job to answer them. I completely get the stance of the website.

I also get your stance as well. Anything Deb says gets a big :iagree:.

Do you guys have matching "Fauna Police" t-shirts? I suggest one for everyone in your little club.
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No, no one agrees with me, all the time. :shrug01: They sometimes disagree and we post our opinions and we may ASK the other person WHY they came to that conclusion (if we have some respect for their reasoning abilities).:rolleyes:

It is unfortunate, that some of us/I have a habit of picking words that will most likely get under someone's skin and this can sometimes help (if it causes them take a second look at how their perception can affect the outcome of whatever they are attempting to do). At other times, it just gets me/whoever enemies...and that's ok, too, because I actually like sharing ideas with people that think for themselves and have something to share rather than "most people are doing it" or, "that's my friend."

I don't ask many people how they came to a conclusion when they post, because in most instances, it's obvious. But this in no way means that I think my way is the only way or the right way. :D

I have explained my perception of what the word Lineage means and by dictionary standards it's certainly past the PARENTS. Examples of the word usage do show that more than one line is referred:

Examples of LINEAGE

1. <his Italian lineage was very important to him>
2. <it is now generally accepted that the lineage of Thomas Jefferson includes black as well as white members>

Now, if some of the community want to change the meaning of the dictionary definition to apply to only Parentage of the product (Parentage can mean lineage, too...but is still generally referred as going back a few generations) then there should be some kind of a standard established to prevent these kinds of misunderstandings. Because if I were (and others of like-mind) to ask for Lineage papers, we will certainly be expecting more than the parents pictures.

We can either learn from this experience, or we can just be angry at everyone that didn't think like ourselves.:shrug01:
 
Jesse Van Atta said:
BTW Deb..... Do you live here? It really seems that way. Just curious. I hate to compare you to Chris the troll, but there are some strong similarities.
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That is hateful and shocking, and you owe Deborah an apology. Leave Chris's name out of this as well. It is OK to have differences of opinions, even strong differences, but let's be courteous to one another.
Deborah is thoughtful and reasonable, and from what I have seen, is out to better the hobby.
Were we all like that, the industry would be at a better place.
 
Wolfy-hound said:
There's obviously varying opinions on what constitutes "lineage papers". There's varying opinions on whether anyone lied, or if they simply forgot and said they would send the papers when they got home. There was lies on the side of the OP with how long times were and whether he recieved anything, vs whether he recieved paperwork not up to his standards.

All this opinions mean that 'sure' someone can sue. Can they WIN? Probably not. Since most of this is opinions and the sue-r would have to prove damage, and there's truth on both sides, and untruth on both sides, any judge would 'probably' throw the case out. So it would depend on what Judge you ended up with, whether you would get a lawsuit heard and/or decided on.

I've been around Fauna a while, and while my opinions often are the same as other long time Fauna members, they are not always the same. While I agree with Deb in many spots, I don't agree with her always, just like I don't agree with anyone here always. In this particular case, I don't agree with her definition of "lineage papers". That doesn't mean I'm going to start wailing conspiracy theories of a cabal of those "on the inside" who all oppose everything I believe in. Nor does it mean I'll insult her for having a different opinion. Sometimes folks have differing opinions and it doesn't mean one is WRONG and the other is RIGHT. It means there's different ways to look at a situation. That's something that grown-ups understand. You can disagree without either of you being wrong, and without it being a fight or descending to insults.
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I agree. All apologies to Deb and Amanda. Chris is still a troll. I was/am not mad, rather caught up. It happens to me every once in a while.

It is one thing to express an opinion. It is another to try to hammer it in to the disagreeing parties. I knew better and posted anyway, just like quite a few others did. Apologies to all.

On lineage, foreverboas style, any animal I have can be trace through pics on our site easily all the way back to the animals I purchased to produced them. Any customer of mine I tell them to save them all for their records. It would be nice if everybody did this, but unrealistic. Lineage does go beyond the parents, but many times the only proof is verbal, and worth the word of the one who gave it. I would expect a customer who expected something like that to have it established in writing at least through emails before money changed hands.
 
Jesse Van Atta said:
I agree. All apologies to Deb and Amanda. Chris is still a troll. I was/am not mad, rather caught up. It happens to me every once in a while.

It is one thing to express an opinion. It is another to try to hammer it in to the disagreeing parties. I knew better and posted anyway, just like quite a few others did. Apologies to all.

On lineage, foreverboas style, any animal I have can be trace through pics on our site easily all the way back to the animals I purchased to produced them. Any customer of mine I tell them to save them all for their records. It would be nice if everybody did this, but unrealistic. Lineage does go beyond the parents, but many times the only proof is verbal, and worth the word of the one who gave it. I would expect a customer who expected something like that to have it established in writing at least through emails before money changed hands.
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Apology accepted....moving on...


:iagree: to the bolded. That would certainly reduce any forthcoming conflicts in case anyone else every asked for "Lineage" papers. Breeders can go a bit beyond the request and provide other information that may pertain to the animal...it doesn't hurt anyone.

Why do you think it "unrealistic?" We already have had quite a few reports (BOI) of big name breeders ripping off people (with their word). What is unrealistic about any breeders that were aware of the issue that arose taking steps to ensure that THEY did take things a step beyond providing only pictures of parentage (if they had it)?
 
How can you say what my attempt was Jesse?You dont even know me. It was not with malicious intent.Just to clarify to everyone.
It was what happened and that was that.
I was not looking to ruin anyone.
I had and said nothing about quality of his boa's! I went there for the fact of the heading.
You were not there or on the phone when he promised me the lineage papers.
I'm sorry you took offense to me posting the ad against your friend,but he should have just sent what he said to ME he would.We talked a few times via phone and he knew and had what was asked.And i believe most breeders have lineage of their boa's.Or very easy to make it since they have grandparent boa's still breeding.And some even farther back.
I was not looking to hurt anyone,just was informing what happened to me on here with a seller!
sorry to come back to this,but i hate being called a trouble maker when i didnt start the issues in the 1st place.
Plus i didnt know this thread was being mad by Jesse.
Although as much as he has complained i should have known it wouldnt stop at the ad i created.

I
 
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