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Bad Guy pendragon_j Jonathan Hammond

MrBig said:
As a side note, you stating that less then 2 y/o pied female at less then 1200 grams is ready to breed is not very responsible either.
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I'm sorry, but I don't remember anyone ever mentioning an age in any of these threads. Are you her boyfriend maybe?
 
hhmoore said:
I stand by my statement in the other thread. The seller is well within his rights to have limited his offer to a full refund. However, given the undisclosed issues with the pied, my opinion is that it should have included return shipping. Like everybody else, I would have been beyond pi$$ed if I had received that pied.
Jonathan, you made a comment about this thread affecting your livelihood... but you screwed up. Showing that you can own up to your mistakes, and make the right decisions, will not be detrimental to your business. Failing to do so, especially when the matter has fallen under scrutiny, most certainly will.
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Owning up to it like making an offer for a refund? As for the issues with the pied, the piece that is missing here is the phone conversation the day they received them. I would have been happy to pay to have them shipped then, since I did forget about the tail nip, but it was downplayed as not a major issue then. We even talked about project he had planned to use them for. Fast forward to over a week later and now it is an issue. I'm thinking either something came up and they need the money or they got another male or they have already used him. I understand that my reputation is important, I hope that immediately offering a refund right after I was told of an issue, even after being told is wan't an issue is enough to make it a little better.
 
In my other post, I stated that your offer of a full refund was appropriate - but why should the buyer have to pay return shipping when the reason for the return was your failure to disclose the snake's problems?
I fully support your all or nothing stance; but since you cannot say that the customer was aware of the condition of the male pied, it pretty much puts him in the should not have been shipped category. Your mistake, you pay the shipping. Seems pretty simple.
 
hhmoore said:
In my other post, I stated that your offer of a full refund was appropriate - but why should the buyer have to pay return shipping when the reason for the return was your failure to disclose the snake's problems?
I fully support your all or nothing stance; but since you cannot say that the customer was aware of the condition of the male pied, it pretty much puts him in the should not have been shipped category. Your mistake, you pay the shipping. Seems pretty simple.
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We were in contact the day of the shipment and there wasn't a request to send them back. The nip was mentioned but it wasn't a deciding factor to keep the group at that point. I don't know what happened between then and now but why should I pay shipping once I get an ok from the buyer? I still would have taken the animals back, and would have covered the shipping if it was a problem that day. Instead of a week and a half later. I think I was being fair at that point to not argue with them and make the offer of a refund at all.
 
pendragon_j said:
We were in contact the day of the shipment and there wasn't a request to send them back. The nip was mentioned but it wasn't a deciding factor to keep the group at that point. I don't know what happened between then and now but why should I pay shipping once I get an ok from the buyer? I still would have taken the animals back, and would have covered the shipping if it was a problem that day. Instead of a week and a half later. I think I was being fair at that point to not argue with them and make the offer of a refund at all.
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This is the only part troubling me. After seeing the severity of the tail issue, I'm wanting to side with the OP, BUT why was it 1 1/2 weeks later before being brought up? OR was it actually that long? (If there was an accurate timeline, I missed it.)

I know neither party. Only wondering exactly what is fair after this much time, especially if the tail issue wasn't brought up immediately. I believe that if there was a problem, it should have been handled within a 24 hour time period.

Again, without all the e-mails, I'm not certain of how much time passed. If the OP made mention right away and this much time has passed while they've been going back and forth trying to figure out the solution, I would have to agree that the full refund include the return shipping. Just my 2 cents on what I've seen/read so far.
 
I doesn't show up when I cut and pasted it but the first question on the tail was on the 3rd and the shipment arrived to them on the morning of the 25th. Over a week later.
 
pendragon_j said:
I doesn't show up when I cut and pasted it but the first question on the tail was on the 3rd and the shipment arrived to them on the morning of the 25th. Over a week later.
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I can tell you from experience. At one point in my life, if I wanted something bad enough, I would probably settle with minor flaws. Having been through this, I can say almost everytime I settle, it grows and eats at me until the point I realize I should NOT have settled.

I have never made a big deal out of an issue that I initially settled with after the fact, but some will. I no longer practice this policy because I realize that it's going to screw no one but me.

I'm not sure where the buyer stands in re to my view, but throwing accusations at the buyer when you CLEARLY know you made a mistake will not help you. The buyer messed up because she waited. You messed up on something FAR worse in my opinion.

I've gathered two things from this thread. If I deal with this buyer, I am to ask that any problems be addressed immediately. Not a hard bump in the road. If I am to deal with you, I know I have to deal with any problems immediately ... but why even deal with you if you have so many problems? This is the show stopper.
 
In the first email, it sounds as if the buyer was hopeful that most of the problems would clear with a few sheds (excepting the stub tail, of course). I understand quarantine, and letting the snake settle; but if a quick look shows a problem, it needs to be carefully examined fairly promptly. That doesn't change the fact that the seller WAS notified of the issue...though, perhaps he didn't recognize it as a problem because the buyer was trying to be optimistic?
The buyer should have double checked sooner, and definitely shouldn't have gone with the soft approach if there was any possibility that she was going to ask for a refund. Better that the problems be plainly, and realistically, described from the start - which would have eliminated the whole issue of the delay.
Besides - who lets a new snake sit unchecked when the first look showed a stub tail and "bite marks/scale rot".

Both sides dropped the ball to some extent.
 
Forgetting that the tail was that damaged is a pretty "big" forget?

Personally, I would just say to myself "what the hell was I thinking?" and pay to have them shipped back to me. Everyone can make mistakes, but you should of handled it with shipping included immediately. Instead... You have all these people seeing that you will sell a snake and just might "forget" to tell them about a deformity before they purchase it.

It would be an easy decision for me... I would forget about the rest of the details, get the snakes back home and in quarantine, then honestly sell them with photos of the tail.
 
I undersatd your point Focal and I agree to some extent. Please understand that up until this point the only proven problem was the nipped tail. There still has been no evidence of anything else, just her pms and I still offered to take the group back. I didn't start arguing the point until they asked me to pay vet bills. Or sell a 1194g female for 1000 buck or pay them for shipping both ways, after I had already covered shipping to them.
 
pendragon_j said:
I undersatd your point Focal and I agree to some extent. Please understand that up until this point the only proven problem was the nipped tail. There still has been no evidence of anything else, just her pms and I still offered to take the group back. I didn't start arguing the point until they asked me to pay vet bills. Or sell a 1194g female for 1000 buck or pay them for shipping both ways, after I had already covered shipping to them.
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Did you look at the video she posted? That doesn't look normal to me. He has a definite arch of some sort in his back end and it's not just vent swelling.
 
pendragon_j said:
I doesn't show up when I cut and pasted it but the first question on the tail was on the 3rd and the shipment arrived to them on the morning of the 25th. Over a week later.
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Sorry about this. I just reread my receipt from Fedex. It was shipped on the 25 received the morning of the 26.
 
ShadowAceD said:
Did you look at the video she posted? That doesn't look normal to me. He has a definite arch of some sort in his back end and it's not just vent swelling.
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I did. And again I showed it to a few people including and got back that it wasn't a kink. Even so I offered a refund. The problems didn't occur until she asked me to split the group, pay to send the to a vet and get them and treatments, or to pay the purchase price and shipping both ways. Even after I covered shipping the first time.
 
pendragon_j said:
I did. And again I showed it to a few people including and got back that it wasn't a kink. Even so I offered a refund. The problems didn't occur until she asked me to split the group, pay to send the to a vet and get them and treatments, or to pay the purchase price and shipping both ways. Even after I covered shipping the first time.
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It's clearly an issue with the snake, regardless of what your "people" think about it. That is not normal and if you are going to keep using that to shield yourself, it is a problem.

Yes, you covered shipping the first time because that was your obligation as the seller.

However, you did not disclose, in depth, issues with the snake.

I agree in the "all or nothing" refund as well, however, because the OP desired to return the animals due to undisclosed problems then you should be paying return shipping as well.

It sucks, but it is the right thing to do and if you want to be seen as a responsible businessman than it is something I would advise. Full disclosure should be given on animals with issues, even if they are cosmetic. I cannot tell you what is going on with his back end for sure, but it is not right and it is, in my opinion, grounds for the OP to seek a refund and return shipping.
 
It is not my obligation as a seller to cover shipping. One of the people was a vet. She is asking for me to pay shipping to her again. She wanted a refund and shipping both ways.
I sent her all the pics she asked for and confirmed the animals were good the day of shipment. How is that not responsible.
 
pendragon_j said:
I did. And again I showed it to a few people including and got back that it wasn't a kink. Even so I offered a refund. The problems didn't occur until she asked me to split the group, pay to send the to a vet and get them and treatments, or to pay the purchase price and shipping both ways. Even after I covered shipping the first time.
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Why not just agree to the vet visit and expenses? If you are staking you rep on the fact that there is nothing wrong, surely you don't expect the vet will see something wrong?
 
pendragon_j said:
It is not my obligation as a seller to cover shipping. One of the people was a vet. She is asking for me to pay shipping to her again. She wanted a refund and shipping both ways.
I sent her all the pics she asked for and confirmed the animals were good the day of shipment. How is that not responsible.
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Sorry, I mistyped. It was your obligation that you agreed to as the seller, so yes ... it was your obligation.

I would question a vet. who would make any sort of "diagnosis" by simply looking at a pic. They can offer their opinion, but no vet. should state anything regarding the health of an animal in sure terms without seeing it.

She wants you to pay shipping and a refund because there is a flaw in the animal that occurred in your care and was not disclosed to her.

The thing that is really odd about it all though is that you are willing to give the refund but will not budge on the shipping. You're willing to take the animals back which, in a way, acknowledges the issues with the pied, but you are bent out of shape over the shipping. You agreed to pay shipping to her, you could have added that into the original pricing or had her pay the extraa, but you did not. That is not on her. That is on you.

Posting all of the pics you sent her could be an indicator to if the issues were present in the photographs.
 
The vet gave me his opinion on the evidence she submitted.He didn't make a diagnosis. If you look at the message she want me to pay for the shipping to her again. She wanted the refund plus shipping both ways. If the issue would have been there when she got the snake and it was so bad. Why wait a week to mention it when I was on the phone with them the day of?I would have been happy to pay for shipping then. I will not pay shipping for shipping once they have given the ok. And I defiantly will not pay the shipping to her twice.
QUOTE=ShadowAceD;1417488]Sorry, I mistyped. It was your obligation that you agreed to as the seller, so yes ... it was your obligation.

I would question a vet. who would make any sort of "diagnosis" by simply looking at a pic. They can offer their opinion, but no vet. should state anything regarding the health of an animal in sure terms without seeing it.

She wants you to pay shipping and a refund because there is a flaw in the animal that occurred in your care and was not disclosed to her.

The thing that is really odd about it all though is that you are willing to give the refund but will not budge on the shipping. You're willing to take the animals back which, in a way, acknowledges the issues with the pied, but you are bent out of shape over the shipping. You agreed to pay shipping to her, you could have added that into the original pricing or had her pay the extraa, but you did not. That is not on her. That is on you.

Posting all of the pics you sent her could be an indicator to if the issues were present in the photographs.[/QUOTE]
 
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