What's the deal with female Deserts?

[R. Eventide]

Oh, yes, it's clear that a variety of temps and setups can work just fine. But it's possible that Deserts, as someone mentioned, may be more susceptible to temps.

I honestly don't know what causes slugs. Could be anything from temps, diet, or weight to simply a random chance of some follicles not getting fertilized...or all of the above.

 

[TessadasExotics]

The average temp in Africa where Ball Pythons are from is 70-90 F. They live underground for the most part. I have never understood why people keep them with temps over 90. IMO hotspots realy arent needed.

 

[Focal]

There was some good info here:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275405&highlight=desert

 

[Slashmaster]

here's a post I made in another forum..

When I went to NARBC in October, one of the vendors sold me a very beautiful looking tiger female at the NERD table (I thought it was Raphy for a sec there but I actually think it was another guy, RJ I think is his name). I was unsure about buying her, because I had heard stories about desert females not being able to produce. He tracked down Chad from Pro Exotics, introduced me to Chad, and told me to ask my question about desert viability to Chad.

Chad told me that I shouldn't worry about the viability; deserts just needed a slightly different environment from regular BPs. He told me to put the female on the bottom-most tub of my rack so she'd be a little colder than the others. He said he knew of a female desert who had produced in (I want to say) Europe, so there was nothing to be concerned over.

I would be very sad to think that both would lie, so I feel confident about my purchase. They don't seem like the types who would do that.

There's my 2 cents.

 

[Montoya]

My view on this is, if desert females have successfully reproduced, why no pictures of them sitting on eggs? What good would holding that info back do? It's not as if it's a secretive project that only 1-2 people are working with. If they breed and breed well, others are bound to be right behind. As far as I can see, providing proof of them laying viable eggs that lead to healthy offspring would only stir up the desert craze a bit more and get females up to a more fitting price point.

Somebody posted a picture of a desert female on eggs last year in the KS forum. That person got a raft of crap from people saying it doesn't look like a desert. Even though those familiar with the project stated it was, he never followed up on it and I don't bame him. People who are less known may not want to open themselves up to such skepticism,

Yes, I know this thread is over a week old, but given the contents, I think I should say something.


My vet is an excellent reptile vet, with over 30 years of experience (Jim Jarchow, if you want to look him up). I completely trust what he says, and he's been saying for years that BPs should be kept at 85 degrees year-round. But whenever temperatures have come up in discussions on Fauna or other sites, I've remained silent (for the reasons already mentioned).

If we want to get to the bottom of things like the Desert breeding issue and Spider wobbles, we really need to be more open with each other...and remain calm!

P.S. Thanks for posting those detailed messages! As I said, I didn't know much about this Desert issue before, and the first thing I thought while reading this thread was, "Wait, PE had a ton of Desert crosses; were those all from male Deserts only?!"

The temperature may play a very important role with the deserts. While most balls can successfully thermoregulate during egg development they may not do a good job. While any ball python can throw slugs for various reasons, I personally feel temperature plays a factor in a lot of the instances.

Oh, yes, it's clear that a variety of temps and setups can work just fine. But it's possible that Deserts, as someone mentioned, may be more susceptible to temps.

I honestly don't know what causes slugs. Could be anything from temps, diet, or weight to simply a random chance of some follicles not getting fertilized...or all of the above.

I also think that too low of a temperature will also affect how successful one is during a season. I don't know for a fact, but think this would yeild less clutches. I am running 84-85 hot spots in my collection during breeding season, I still get some slugs but not as many as with higher temperatures

here's a post I made in another forum..

They are good people. I think the information supplied to you at that time was probably the most current available. This is what they had to go off of then based on reports to them. They have done quite a bit to help the desert project and continue to do so even after losing their collection.

Desert females have reproductive issues, there's no getting around that point. Everything is just speculation unfortunately and it may take some time before consistent proven results happen. Age, size, temperature, sexual maturation, and hormones all have been brought up as possible reasons why they have trouble. Over the next couple years I expect to see more desert female clutches. During that time I expect many people to grab desert girls while the price is low.

 

[Focal]

I will say, I applaud those who are taking on the female deserts to tackle this problem. It's definitely something that doesn't deserve to be ostracized.

 

[Randy F]

see this is great! This is what I wanted when I created this thread. I did not want people just saying I was crazy because they read a post from someone who heard from a friend that he read that someone knew desert females would not breed! I think this is exactely what these forums are for. They are for the little guys to get together and discuss and help each other do what they might not be able to alone. How cool would it be if together we figured it out and got desert females to produce? Imagine if all the other sites said "a few guys on Fauna produced from deserts!" I do know people value their own opinions and first thought is to defend themselves, I started to get uppitty at first and sent a pm to apoligise if I came off offensive. I think if we take the time to learn from others experiances we can not only figure out things like this, but help eachother go farther.

Now with that said, the couple female deserts that I have will not go this year. Who has deserts that will go this year? What are you going to try? I will try to get a hold of Brian today from BHB and see if he will tell me what he is going to try this year with his, and maybe Marc Bailey. Does anyone else have any connections with bigger breeders to see what their thoughts for this year are?

Again, thanks to everyone for putting a foot forward to helping become the solution.

 

[RJK890]

Quote Montoya:
Somebody posted a picture of a desert female on eggs last year in the KS forum. That person got a raft of crap from people saying it doesn't look like a desert. Even though those familiar with the project stated it was, he never followed up on it and I don't bame him. People who are less known may not want to open themselves up to such skepticism.

Why don't you "blame him"?
That female was a very poor looking example of a Desert, and although I did not question it on the forum, I was thinking that it did not look like a Desert.

Some people may have thought that he had been scammed, and that while he may have purchased her as a Desert, probably at Desert prices, she was not in fact a Desert.
Others may have thought that he was trying to be dishonest by claiming to have had a female Desert sitting on viable eggs, and posting a picture of a female that did not look like a Desert sitting on eggs.
Then there may have been the few that just took the opportunity to say something negative.
Are those people to blame for him not following through with the results of that clutch?

It was explained that it was a PK line Desert, and not a PE line Desert.
(I may be wrong, but I believe he said it was purchased directly from Pete.)

Once that was cleared up, he never followed through on the results of the clutch.
Now, if he had produced any Deserts, Desert combos, or a Super Desert, don't you think he would have went back to that thread and posted pictures ?

Is there a difference between the PK and PE line of Deserts, or are they both having the same female fertility issues ?

Has anybody tried breeding a PE line Desert male to a PK line Desert female ?

 

[Focal]

Why don't you "blame him"?
That female was a very poor looking example of a Desert, and although I did not question it on the forum, I was thinking that it did not look like a Desert.

Some people may have thought that he had been scammed, and that while he may have purchased her as a Desert, probably at Desert prices, she was not in fact a Desert.
Others may have thought that he was trying to be dishonest by claiming to have had a female Desert sitting on viable eggs, and posting a picture of a female that did not look like a Desert sitting on eggs.
Then there may have been the few that just took the opportunity to say something negative.
Are those people to blame for him not following through with the results of that clutch?

It was explained that it was a PK line Desert, and not a PE line Desert.
(I may be wrong, but I believe he said it was purchased directly from Pete.)

Once that was cleared up, he never followed through on the results of the clutch.
Now, if he had produced any Deserts, Desert combos, or a Super Desert, don't you think he would have went back to that thread and posted pictures ?

Is there a difference between the PK and PE line of Deserts, or are they both having the same female fertility issues ?

Has anybody tried breeding a PE line Desert male to a PK line Desert female ?

I never saw the thread, but if I honestly had a desert, produced said clutch, and people laid into me (the same people that need this info), I would have never updated it and said screw 'em. That kind of info is juicy and I don't expect anyone to willingly come off of that info unless it was an average guy.

I doubt the bigger breeders would ever give up to much info. It's a major investment, major major investment, and who has made a major investment into ball pythons just to give it up. Give up enough details and info to sell females, yes. Give up enough to let every buyer reproduce them, no. That's why it took so long for these details, HGW and spider flaws to surface. The more people that produce these, the less they are worth, and the less people know about them, the more they will buy.

Just my opinion. I'm sure nothing like this has ever happened though

 

[Montoya]

Why don't you "blame him"?
That female was a very poor looking example of a Desert, and although I did not question it on the forum, I was thinking that it did not look like a Desert.

Some people may have thought that he had been scammed, and that while he may have purchased her as a Desert, probably at Desert prices, she was not in fact a Desert.
Others may have thought that he was trying to be dishonest by claiming to have had a female Desert sitting on viable eggs, and posting a picture of a female that did not look like a Desert sitting on eggs.
Then there may have been the few that just took the opportunity to say something negative.
Are those people to blame for him not following through with the results of that clutch?

It was explained that it was a PK line Desert, and not a PE line Desert.
(I may be wrong, but I believe he said it was purchased directly from Pete.)

Once that was cleared up, he never followed through on the results of the clutch.
Now, if he had produced any Deserts, Desert combos, or a Super Desert, don't you think he would have went back to that thread and posted pictures ?

Is there a difference between the PK and PE line of Deserts, or are they both having the same female fertility issues ?

Has anybody tried breeding a PE line Desert male to a PK line Desert female ?

I will certainly agree it wasn't a great looking desert, that could of been because it just had layed eggs. It was browned out but still had the desert characteristics. Regardless of the outcome of that clutch, that community got what it deserved, no follow up. If I had my integrity questioned like that I would not give the pleasure of letting them know either way.

Those who were considered experts on the gene felt it was a desert which trumps all those with limited experience. That thread just went too far and may make some people less likely to post any results they may have.

I invested in the desert project in early 09 by purchasing a male from Pro Exotics. At that time males were selling for 4k and no one really knew anything about desert female issues with reproduction. I chose to purchase from Pro Exotics instead of Pete Kahl (which is local to me) because I felt the PE line was nicer overall in appearance and older animals still retained a better look. This is just my opinion, but I feel they are the same as a lesser and butter. However, personal preference is certainly with the PE line.

 

[B&C Ball Pythons]

I hope to see some results this season. It's looking grim for the desert females, but you never know. We have a double gene female who we will definitely attempt to breed in a few years. Best case, she lays, worse case, she's absolutely beautiful and we got her for less than a single gene hatchling, so it was a minimal loss gamble.

 

[glk832]

I hope to see some results this season. It's looking grim for the desert females, but you never know. We have a double gene female who we will definitely attempt to breed in a few years. Best case, she lays, worse case, she's absolutely beautiful and we got her for less than a single gene hatchling, so it was a minimal loss gamble.

Thanks for bumping that up... I hope to see results too.. The Mojave Desert is my favorite right now.. beautiful

 

[Randy F]

I agree that no matter what happens, you still end up with beautiful snakes. If you are in it for money then deserts are not a good choice. Lets face it, if they all start breeding after the planets align......the project has already suffered. Everyone has dropped their pants trying to get rid of females so it is easily going to be too common to make a killing on. Now if you are in it for the beauty of the snakes, you will not be let down. They make amazing combos. I will continue to breed my deserts to make snakes that no other morph will. Worst case is you make females that will be $500 to $1000 snakes depending on the combo......well that covered your care for both male and female for the year. Any male you breed or sell for a lot more because it WILL breed and has ridiculous combos. When we produced our desert fireflies the clutch was 1.1 desert firefly, .1 desert fire, .1 pastel desert and a normal. To make those never produced desert fireflies we still got a normal......a desert female is still worth more than a normal. I would not shy away from deserts, just buy a male and know what prize snake you want to produce, not how much you can make.

 

[Breaking Balls]

I agree that no matter what happens, you still end up with beautiful snakes. If you are in it for money then deserts are not a good choice. Lets face it, if they all start breeding after the planets align......the project has already suffered. Everyone has dropped their pants trying to get rid of females so it is easily going to be too common to make a killing on. Now if you are in it for the beauty of the snakes, you will not be let down. They make amazing combos. I will continue to breed my deserts to make snakes that no other morph will. Worst case is you make females that will be $500 to $1000 snakes depending on the combo......well that covered your care for both male and female for the year. Any male you breed or sell for a lot more because it WILL breed and has ridiculous combos. When we produced our desert fireflies the clutch was 1.1 desert firefly, .1 desert fire, .1 pastel desert and a normal. To make those never produced desert fireflies we still got a normal......a desert female is still worth more than a normal. I would not shy away from deserts, just buy a male and know what prize snake you want to produce, not how much you can make.

I like that. Doing it for the art and not the business. At least the starving artists will have something to work with Totally kidding, well, almost entirely kidding. Just trying to lighten it up a bit.

Regards,

B

 

[dustinNMpythons]

I agree that no matter what happens, you still end up with beautiful snakes. If you are in it for money then deserts are not a good choice. Lets face it, if they all start breeding after the planets align......the project has already suffered. Everyone has dropped their pants trying to get rid of females so it is easily going to be too common to make a killing on. Now if you are in it for the beauty of the snakes, you will not be let down. They make amazing combos. I will continue to breed my deserts to make snakes that no other morph will. Worst case is you make females that will be $500 to $1000 snakes depending on the combo......well that covered your care for both male and female for the year. Any male you breed or sell for a lot more because it WILL breed and has ridiculous combos. When we produced our desert fireflies the clutch was 1.1 desert firefly, .1 desert fire, .1 pastel desert and a normal. To make those never produced desert fireflies we still got a normal......a desert female is still worth more than a normal. I would not shy away from deserts, just buy a male and know what prize snake you want to produce, not how much you can make.

For you to say deserts make combos that no other morph will is quite a stretch, deserts are mediocre at best in my eyes, I'd take a good clown, puma, orange dream, or cream combo over a desert any day and those aren't even my dream snakes. Banana BLOWS DESERT AWAY (even though I wouldn't buy one because I'm pretty sure that morph has been drove into the ground and people are hiding how many "reallly" are in existence to keep market high). lol. Not to mention the GHI and Blackhead which have untapped potential still. Not saying deserts don't make awesome combos but I wouldn't put them on such a pedistal. Each person has different taste. For me I'm on one of those see food diets and I love them all but I'm not willing to just set thousands of dollars on fire and watch it burn.

 

[Randy F]

its not that they are on a pedestal by far. I am working on clown and hypo cream projects as well, not to mention hopefully soul suckers, infernos, and enchifernos this year as well. For people who dont like deserts, they would turn their nose at anything they make short of one that poops gold. This thread was about people who like them and trying to get educated before buying them. I doubt anyone thinks its the best morph out there. Unless you only like dark snakes or albinos, come hold my desert fireflies and tell me it is not a beautiful snake. Its what it does to clean up the crosses that makes them more impressive. I am not trying to compare a $1000 snake with a (last male banana I saw) $50,000 snake for overall beauty, or even a dollar snake for that fact. There again beauty is in the eye of the beholder so someone out there might take that camaro over the ferrari. I am not by far telling anyone to go get a desert project. Unless you have hundreds of snakes with extra females, it would be a stupid purchase. I just think that what it does to make other morphs brighter and cleaner that it should not be shunned. Just be smart and educated about what your buying. Male combos are still worth something but females buy cheap as pet projects and if they produce great, if not remember its a pet project.

 

[dustinNMpythons]

I wasn't putting a money value to the snakes I was just going off what you said "make snakes that no other snake will" and playing devils advocate lol. For the record I love EVERY snake and that's probably what gets me in trouble sometimes, because I want all of them. The only thing I find irritating is the price tag that comes along with a "pet" snake when the breeders know it has problems and its been known for a long time!

 

[RobNJ]

What I can't see in regards to males still being able to breed fine and making stellar combos is them holding their price tags. I think another year or 2 of females dropping slugs or getting egg bound will hurt male prices in a big way. People will no doubt see that there are plenty of other morphs that make killer combos that don't carry the inherent risks and go that route. Similar to the caramel situation...how far have caramel prices dropped only in the last 2 years and how many people have unloaded their caramel projects with the ultramel and crider becoming more affordable(not for me) options. As far as still having perfectly fine pet snakes, if I wanted a pet ball python, I'm fine with a normal or pastel. If I were buying a papuan olive python or timor python, I'd pay the asking price on them because they're still not bred in captivity on a large scale, keeping the prices up. With balls, there are 100 or more just as beautiful, yet more affordable "pet options" to go with over a desert female. I see where everyone is coming from, but that's how I see it...

 

[dustinNMpythons]

I still have pretty good caramel glow projects going and still plan to work with caramels a lot in the future. but in their case they actually produce and with it being a recessive morph and being able to get het females that produce fine helps a ton.

 

[Randy F]

I wasn't putting a money value to the snakes I was just going off what you said "make snakes that no other snake will" and playing devils advocate lol. For the record I love EVERY snake and that's probably what gets me in trouble sometimes, because I want all of them. The only thing I find irritating is the price tag that comes along with a "pet" snake when the breeders know it has problems and its been known for a long time!

that statement is very true. Nothing can give you pied morphs other than a pied. It was not saying it makes the best morphs. You cannot get a bumble bee by crossing a pastel and a butter. Because you dont like spider wobbles you cant replace it with another gene. You either take the good and the bad, or you get nothing. Deserts bring out some features in genes that no other gene can.

as far as the price tag, I agree to a point. I have seen female deserts go for $800 lately. A snake is only worth what someone is will to pay. I see stuff that I think the seller is crazy, but someone may pay that or offer half cash and get it? I personally will probably not sell any of my desert or desert combo females. I will probably give them away to people who buy my higher end stuff, or good customers that buy a lot. Little added bonus and incentive to buy from me I guess.