Bad Guy [email protected] Seller Beware

[Bartley Reptiles]

I'm not going to go into much explaination as the email below will tell the story. In short, this buyer agreed to purchase an animal for $1600. He then, on more than one occasion, said "the check is in the mail" The animal was held for two weeks before he finally admitted that no check was ever sent. He goes by "Ira" and after doing some searching I believe his last name is Tommer. This I can't be certain of as he never used it in our correspondence. Hopefully this will prevent other sellers from having their time and potential sales wasted. Our emails are below, his are in bold:

6/28/2011
*************
NOTE: This message was sent to you via the Kingsnake.com Classifieds. If you feel this message is fraudulent or abusive please forward it to [email protected].
NOTE: DO NOT flag this message as SPAM/JUNK as your ability to receive legitimate messages from Kingsnake.com Classifieds may be compromised
*************

Will you take 1600 tomorrow?

Thanks

IRa

Subject: Re: Message about: 2011 Carpondro
From: Clint Bartley <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, June 28, 2011 11:28 pm
To: [email protected]

Ira,
That would work for us. We take payoal under this email address. Thanks,
Clint

From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Message about: 2011 Carpondro
To: "Clint Bartley" <[email protected]>
Date: Wednesday, June 29, 2011, 10:15 AM

Hi,

I made an offer on a female, and if that's accepted I'll buy yours too. I should have an answer this afternoon sometime.

Thanks

Subject: RE: Message about: 2011 Carpondro
From: Clinton Bartley <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, June 29, 2011 11:57 am
To: [email protected]

Hello,
Sounds good. If you could let me know either way, that would be great. I have a couple others interested but you were the first response. Thanks again,

Clint

6/29/2011
[email protected] wrote:

Send me an address to send postal money order to, 1500 shipped.

6/29/2011
We will take the original offer of 1600 plus $40 shipping, but not 1500 shipped. If you still want to go with that let me know.

Thanks
Clint

6/29/2011
I'm very sorry. I typod. I meant 1500. I'll tell you why. The other one has agreed to 1500. So that would be 3000 for me. These are babies and will not be ready to breed until 2013, at the very earliest. With the same 3000 I can buy at least six adults in combo of Chondros and Carpet varietes (maybe even up to 8 or 9) and be breeding in less than a year, maybe even still this year. That gives me two or three seasons to make my money back before the babies are ready. If I really think about it, that' probably a better way to go. The only reason I'm even considering the babies is I like the way they look, but not enough to go over 3k. So if you'll take 1500 shipped, please let me know, and if not I fully understand and apologize for my careless mistake.

Sorry again,

Ira

7/26/2011
Hi,

If you ever decide to take 1500 shipped I'll take him. Not trying to talk you down, just if it ever comes to that for whatever reason.

Thanks

7/26/2011
The best we are willing to go is $1600 shipped. If you can meet us there, he's yours!

7/26/2011
Let me think about it for a day or two. If I do it it will be because it's such a beautiful work of art. I'm not sure there is any real value there as a designer snake. However... you know what, Okay, I talked myself into it. Give me your address and I'll send a money order tomorrow.

Just send me some more pics so I'm sure about what he looks like.

Ira

7/28/2011
Hey Ira,
Sorry for the delayed response, your email got kicked to my spam folder. My address is

Clint Bartley
5700 Madison Ave
Evansville, IN 47715

We have recently acquired an albino carpet and will be incorporating it into future carpondro projects... should be pretty neat. I have a heavy work schedule the next few days, but will be happy to get more pics for you this weekend. Thanks again,

Clint

7/28/2011
Do you have an account in either BOA, Wachovia or Wells Fargo? If you do I can deposit cash right in there tomorrow.. Also, send me your Paypal info in case I get my problem with them fixed tonight. Point is, the snake is SOLD. It's just a matter of payment method now.

Thanks

7/28/2011
Unfortunately I do not have a an account with any of those banks. My paypal is through this email. I will mark him as sold for you. Just let me know when you figure out which way you are going to go. I'm not sure where you are located, but we are in the mid 90s here and will need the temp to drop some before shipping. If you happen to be going to the daytona show, we can deliver. Thanks again!

Clint

7/28/2011
I will be going to the show, unless anything changes. I will get my paypal fixed soon, like today or tomorrow.

Also, can you please give me his breeding? Male what, female what, etc.

7/28/2011
SOLD!!! Why not change the ad and mark it SOLD? it's good for business.

I live in 33304, and it is stinking hot here too. Let's get the deal done and then worry about getting it to me. I'm not in a rush. I am now going to try to fix paypal. However, in case I can't, where can I send a certified bank check?

Thanks

Ira

7/28/2011
Lol, no problem. I will get it changed in the morning for you. A check can be mailed to Clint Bartley 5700 Madison Ave. Evansville, IN 47715

Thanks again,
Clint

7/28/2011
Going out in the A.M.ski

Ira

7/31/2011
Hi,

I just solved my Paypal problem. However, in the process of getting verified I declined to give them my banking password, so the verification process takes "2-3 business days." So I will start checking it tomorrow, and the minute it's cleared I will send you the full amount. Just because they say 2-3 days doesn't mean it won't show up earlier.

Point is, it's a done deal for certain.

Thanks

Ira


7/31/2011
No worries. I have the snake marked sold for you. Thanks again!

Clint

8/1/2011
Mailing the check tonight. Thanks

8/1/2011
Works for me. Thanks,

Clint

8/3/2011
Hello Ira,
I just wanted to verify that payment had been mailed out on Monday.

Thanks,
Clint

8/3/2011
Hi,

I'm sorry for the delay and the confusion. I am a walking zombie due to the renovation and all the snake purchases I am trying to put together from many different sellers. I forget when I did it, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, it's all a blur, but a personal check for $1600 was mailed to Clint Bartley 5700 Madison Ave. Evansville, IN 47715. Give it unitl Monday before you panic. It is coming. It will also clear before I get the snake. This is a done deal.

As for daytona, that sounds like a plan to me. I was planning on going up from Ft. Laud on one of my motorcycles, but I'm also picking up some more snakes, so I think I'll take the car instead. Fooey!!

Ira

8/3/2011
Not panicking at all lol, just wrapping up a few emails and deals. Wanted to make sure this one was where I thought it was. Daytona it is!

Thanks again,
Clint

8/10/2011
Ira,
As of Wednesday the 10th, we have received no check. If it hasn't arrived by tomorrow, we will be putting the carpondro back on the market.

Thanks,
Clint

8/11/2011
HI,

Let me tell you what the problem is. I agreed to buy this snake for 1600, which was more than I wanted to pay in the first place. Then, right after that I found an entire clutch that looks just like yours, and I can buy any one of them for $1200. The long delay has been ethics. I've been fighting with myself because normally I would honor the deal, but I'm so stretched out for cash now that I just can't. I have a responsibility to myself to spend as little as I can for a relatively identical item.

Sorry, very sorry.

Ira


8/11/2011
No, Ira, I would be happy to tell you what the problem is. Not wanting to purchase a snake is fine. Thinking a snake is priced to high for you is fine. Commiting to a purchase then backing out is not. Even more so, blatantly lying is certainly not fine. In your case Ira, I would avoid using the word "ethics" in your attempt to explain your actions, when your previous email contained the phrases, and I quote, "I'll send a money order tomorrow", "Point is, the snake is SOLD. It's just a matter of payment method now,", "SOLD!!! Why not change the ad and mark it SOLD?", "Point is, it's a done deal for certain", "Going out in the A.M.ski", "Mailing the check tonight", "a personal check for $1600 was mailed to Clint Bartley 5700 Madison Ave. Evansville, IN 47715. Give it unitl Monday before you panic. It is coming. It will also clear before I get the snake. This is a done deal". Clearly your "ethics" need some work. I'm sure you won't take it as a surprise when I say do not contact me on this snake again, nor any in the future. I also feel you should be informed that all of our correspondence will be posted on the BOI (faunaclassifieds.com). Hopefully, no other seller will lose potential sales due to your delays, indecisiveness, and undeniable deceptions.

Clint

 

[reptilebaby]

That does sound wrong. Very, very wrong. It's not right to say "yes, I want it" then back out when you find a better price elsewhere. If you're worried about price, shop around BEFORE you make a commitment to one seller for an animal!
Sounds like you have been VERY patient with this buyer.

 

[Alex G]

That does sound wrong. Very, very wrong. It's not right to say "yes, I want it" then back out when you find a better price elsewhere. If you're worried about price, shop around BEFORE you make a commitment to one seller for an animal!
Sounds like you have been VERY patient with this buyer.

+1 to this. It also looks a LOT like he was trying to trick you into sending him the snake anyways, knowing full well he wasn't going to pay for it. Sorry you had to deal with this piece of work!

 

[Wolfy-hound]

He told an outright lie there, "The check is in the mail to you..." when he was backing out. Sounds like a really poor way to act. "Do not sell to" list indeed.

 

[Mister Internet]

That does sound wrong. Very, very wrong. It's not right to say "yes, I want it" then back out when you find a better price elsewhere. If you're worried about price, shop around BEFORE you make a commitment to one seller for an animal!
Sounds like you have been VERY patient with this buyer.

I'm not sure if I agree ENTIRELY... IMO, until money and/or product changes hands, there is no *real* "transaction". Now, is it a good idea for a businessperson or buyer to engage in the practice of verbally committing to a sale and then going for a better price somewhere else? Not really, no... but the fact remains that no money was sent and no transaction was legally obligated. I think until money and/or product changes hands, either party is free to do whatever they wish with their money and product, even though there are many actions in this grey area that will make future transactions difficult (if not impossible).

THAT BEING SAID... the buyer was absolutely in the wrong by stating OUTRIGHT LIES, no question about that. For that reason, this buyer should NEVER be trusted, and this is absolutely a valid BOI. People that "talk big" are a dime a dozen in the animal industry... however, it takes a rare weasel to promise that checks or money orders are actually IN THE MAIL, when such is an outright lie. THAT, in my opinion, is where the transgression lies... not with "backing out of the sale".

Just MO.

 

[RobNJ]

That sucks Clint...deadbeat buyer for sure. I fully appreciated your last e-mail! For what it's worth,
I think you've got the name right. Google turns up multiple results with the same info...

Ira Tommer
Roving Bean, LLC
Hollywood, Fla

 

[reptilebaby]

I always consider my word a VERBAL contract.....Therefore if I say I want it, then I follow through with my WORD. That is what gets you an honest reputation. Not saying you want it and waiting until the last minute and there's pressure on you and then to say oh, here's the thing, I found a better price elsewhere so I won't be buying yours. He held that animal for TWO weeks. He told him that he had other interested buyers, even. The buyer could have said at THAT point that he could sell to one of the next in line, instead of continuing to say he wanted it and making it be unavailable for that long.
That is wrong to do to anyone

 

[Bartley Reptiles]

Thank you all for the support. I too feel that a person's word should be enough. But honestly, Ira saying that he wanted the animal isn't even what bothered me. As sellers, I'm sure we have all had the "window shoppers" that say they are going to buy an animal and then disappear to never be heard of again. I don't even have a problem with him changing his mind, as frustrating as it may be, it happens. What absolutely infuriated me was the lying. To say that the check had been sent and to find out it never had, that was what showed his true character in my opinion. I have received three emails from Ira since posting this of which I have not replied. They are posted below. As far as I'm concerned, any correspondence between he and I on this matter can be done right here for everyone to see. Thanks again BOI!

8/12/2011
You know what, you're right. You're absolutely right. I am going to the post office now and buying a $1600 money order made out to you and mailing it to 5700 madison ave, evansville i8n 47715. If you have any reason I should not, call me at 954-687-8281. It will be mailed before 12 today, overnight. This time you can delist the snake with confidence, if you have listed it already.

Just as a point of fact, the early assurances were not lies, as I only found the other one late last week. My life in turmoil right now caused the delays.

You're right.

Ira

8/12/201
HI,

I just read the last line of your letter. You know what, go fuck yourself, threatening me. Do whatever you want.

8/12/2011
How's this for a threat: YOu're not the only one who can post things. LOTS of people can.

It seems Ira has misunderstood the last line in my final email. A threat would imply that I wanted a behavior changed or was looking for retribution. This isn't the case Ira. My last sentence was an informative one. It was notice of where you could view anything being said about the situation so that it didn't occur without your knowledge. You know, an attempt at being honest. Learn from that.

Clint

 

[Bobby Douglass]

Looks like he can't even keep track of his lies. Thanks for letting everyone know.

 

[Killer Chams]

Dead beat buyer. You probably are better off not havin done the transaction with this individual anyway. With behavior like that I wouldnt want that party to have any of my offspring I produced. Sounds like he's only in the hobby for the potential $$$ he can make not the love of the animals and the thrill of producing healthy offspring. Clint I commend you for keeping your cool and not resorting to name calling or profanity. Stuff like that makes my blood boil. Good luck selling your snake bro....

 

[reptilebaby]

He's even worse than I first thought. Sad. Very,VERY sad. You are handling this quite well, and he is acting like a child who is trying to lie his way OUT of a lie!

 

[OneBadDecision]

This is the "criminal" of the story.

I have two things to say about this.

1. He was right. I made a stupid mistake and used bad judgement, up to a point. When I realized this I emailed him that he was right and I would continue with the deal. Then I reread his email to me and saw the threat. Yes, despited what he says, it was a threat. Telling me what he was going to do was not to be kind to me so I could mend my ways and become a better person. It was clearly revenge. So I told him where he could go, as far as I was concerned.

2. All of you people who pass judgement don't bother to research the LITERALLY hundreds of thousands of dollars of transactions I have conducted in this industry over 15 years with no problems.

3. All of you who bother to comment on this issue have, of course, never made a mistake out of adreniline rushing at the wrong moment. I feel very sad for all of you whose lives are so empty that you have nothing better to do than to spend your time commenting on such a petty mater. I know you all have led perfect lives with never any mistakes. God Bless you all; you are very fortunate.

 

[RobNJ]

2. All of you people who pass judgement don't bother to research the LITERALLY hundreds of thousands of dollars of transactions I have conducted in this industry

3. I feel very sad for all of you whose lives are so empty that you have nothing better to do than to spend your time commenting on such a petty mater.

Famous words of literally dozens of other people on this board with the big red 'X' next to their name....

 

[Bobby Douglass]

Hopefully, no other seller will lose potential sales due to your delays, indecisiveness, and undeniable deceptions.

Clint

This is what you call a threat? I see it as being responsible and warning people of a bad buyer. Just keep your word and things like this won't happen.

 

[Lucille]

This is the "criminal" of the story.

I have two things to say about this.

1. He was right. I made a stupid mistake and used bad judgement, up to a point. When I realized this I emailed him that he was right and I would continue with the deal. Then I reread his email to me and saw the threat. Yes, despited what he says, it was a threat. Telling me what he was going to do was not to be kind to me so I could mend my ways and become a better person. It was clearly revenge. So I told him where he could go, as far as I was concerned.

2. All of you people who pass judgement don't bother to research the LITERALLY hundreds of thousands of dollars of transactions I have conducted in this industry over 15 years with no problems.

3. All of you who bother to comment on this issue have, of course, never made a mistake out of adreniline rushing at the wrong moment. I feel very sad for all of you whose lives are so empty that you have nothing better to do than to spend your time commenting on such a petty mater. I know you all have led perfect lives with never any mistakes. God Bless you all; you are very fortunate.

So you made a horrible mistake by lying to someone about a transaction. Then you come here and tell us that what you do subsequently concerning your lapse in morals depend not on what is right or wrong, but on your perceptions of how other party responded to your wrongs. You have rationalized your way out of lying, and then you insulted any of the audience here who chose to comment on your lapse.

I do feel that if the shoe was on the other foot and it was you that had been lied to, and it involved a financial transaction for a substantial amount, perhaps you would not dismiss the issue so easily.

You had a chance. You could have, after being caught, come here, manned up, apologized, and gone through with the transaction.

What's that? You are saying that you've only lied once? A petty matter? Now why would we believe someone who has just admitted to lying? Maybe it is just that you were caught once?

Instead of manning up, you have immortalized yourself as a weasel, and those who subsequently search your name on this site will have to consider whether they want to do biz with a weasel.

 

[Reptilecam]

You wasted the sellers timer, lied to him, and probably made him lose out on other buyers. He was very civil with you the entire time, not many people would do that.

 

[hhmoore]

Hmmm - I posted a response a few hours ago, but it isn't here

Basically, it was a question to Ira Tommer:

You were advised of this thread back when all of this took place....why register to comment - now - after 7 full months have passed?
Were you so wronged by this thread that you had to tell your side, and direct petty jabs at its participants?
He was unkind, and didn't help you to become a better person? Seriously? Has the passage of time twisted your memory that much? You jerked the seller around, repeatedly telling him payment had been sent...then you got offended when he told you not to contact him & that he would be posting here.

I think you are crying to the wrong audience.

 

[Morelia4life]

I couldn't have said it better myself. Nothing worse then a bad guy trying to make the good guy look like he is in the wrong.

Damn.... how sad some people can be.

 

[Slim]

Ira where have you been for the last 7 months? Out finding Jesus? Jesus would have sent the check...