Bad Guy Josh of OUTBACK REPTILES

[deborahbroadus]

Paul, do you have any screen shots of the ad that you bought this snake from? Or any other way to prove (to Outback Reptiles) that this is indeed the same snake that they sent you? The ONLY problem that I see with the time lapse is if there is no way to identify the snake. If they can, it would be pretty stupid to send back a female that the OP claims is male.

When I sell 100% hets, I send them with a photo ID. But if the animal is not het for anything, there's no paperwork so remembering each and every snake (without the paperwork) could be next to impossible (for a larger company like OR). As far as the OP trying to get over on the seller by using a male that he didn't even need, I just don't understand how that could possibly benefit him.

I guess my posts reflect the fact that I'm not taking anything he is "SAYING" as fact. Photo of the snake may make the seller want to make amends if he's leaning that way. But the basis of MY opinion is that the TOS is expired. The seller and buyer have equal responsibility (again, imo).

I am sorry, but I see a TOS as protection on BOTH sides, not just the buyer's. There was enough time for him to check. The TOS is given for protection on both sides.

As to why/whether or not he would do something so stupid...that was purely speculation (on my part) as to a why IF the pictures were, in fact, an attempt to deceive...stupider things have been done.

 

[Willow]

I can't help but agree that more identifiable proof needs to be presented before a refund is given. Based on the few inches of snake that are visible in that pic, and the low quality of the pic in general. It would be near impossible to match that pic to one from when Josh sold it.

This is an easy fix....better proof of the claim, full refund. Yall decide between you who gets the snake. Done.

I would ask someone for a better picture regardless of how much time had past (1 hour or 1 year) because I would want to be 100% sure that it was the animal I sold.

Everyone here knows how often things can turn around and NOT be what we all expected. So even tho there may not be a reason to suspect the OP is being dishonest, does that mean we should just roll over and believe him? Without 100% proof of the snake in question's identity?

Other then that....I have no opinion on the rest of this conversation.

 

[endrin]

Matt, sadly i do not have a screen shot. Willow, i would be more than happy to supply more proof to the seller if he would call me and ask me. I sent the pic to Josh and i assumed it was proof enough because of the response i got of " i got it, let me see what we can do." That tells me Josh seen the pic and said ( hey thats a penis on the snake we sold him let me talk to the others and see what we can do.)

 

[Lucille]

I am waiting to hear from the Owner of the company (Ian) on how he wants to handle the situation, before I make any formal post as it's out of my hands right now due to the time passed on the transaction, but wanted to put a time time on the sexing in question.

The snake was purchased on 3/25/12 and received 3/29/12 and I received a email on June 4th saying it was mis-sexed. This is a time frame that was 2 days shy of 10 weeks.

We were also told he was in with one of the OP males, and not a "friends" male.

While not a reason for the delay in replies, given the situation, and the amount of time elapsed, along with the picture we received (same as in thread) I had to pass the situation to the owner to see how we could handle it, and did not realize he had not replied to the buyer yet. (Its breeding season for our balls and rainbows so he has been tied up the last few weeks, not a excuse but a reason for the delay). I spoke with him today, and we are working on a way to verify the animal (and sex) to get the situation resolved as soon as possible.

I will let the OP know what we decide is the best solution as soon as I hear from the owner.

.

Paul, did you catch this post?

 

[radera5]

Willow I completely agree, though I think much of what Dave is saying is assuming the snake is in fact male and the same snake. I don't think many of us posting would be so ridiculous to just say he needs to give him a full refund.

I know Deb was saying NO full refund even if it is the same snake and male. I believe that is what Dave, as well as myself, and others are talking about. No one is going to say Paul should get a refund for a female.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Matt, sadly i do not have a screen shot. Willow, i would be more than happy to supply more proof to the seller if he would call me and ask me. I sent the pic to Josh and i assumed it was proof enough because of the response i got of " i got it, let me see what we can do." That tells me Josh seen the pic and said ( hey thats a penis on the snake we sold him let me talk to the others and see what we can do.)

Do you still have the snake? Why not just take another pictures (or series) face, body, hemes?

You stated you wanted a full refund: Post 1:

I am looking for a full refund and its only right and fair that i get one.

 

[Snake-Queen]

Why has no one asked him to supply the third party's name? It is against BOI rules to post information gotten from a third party without identifying said third party.

As the OP doesn't even have the snake in question in his possession & the picture he is using was supplied by the third party, then he has no prooof that he can use in a BOI thread. Therefore, all we have to go on is his word that the snake is a male. I like Deb require more proof than an unknowns word, no offense to the OP, that is just me.

Also, as the OP doesn't have the snake in question, he cannot supply better pictures.

If I was the seller, I would not refund based on what has been provided here as proof, nor would I refund because the snake is not in the buyer's possession. Once the snake changed hands, it would void any warranty or agreement in my opinion.

If you think of the snake as evidence, once the snake left the buyer's possession, the chain of evidence is broken, especially as the third party has not been named.

IF the buyer had caught the mis-sexing while the snake was in his possession, then regardless of the time that has passed, he would be due a refund.

 

[Johnny]

Outback Reptiles

For goodness sake it's a $150 sale on a thayeri that Outback prolly paid $50 to ship. I have known Ian before Outback and have dealt with Josh on/off when Ian is too busy. I can't count how many freakin' transactions I've had with them (maybe more than 100 deals?-both buying and selling). They buy and sell animals constantly and I'm sure someone accidentally miss sexed/miss represented the sex of this snake before they acquired it. The staff prolly didn't have time to resex the snake or forgot to. They have always been more than fair with me in ALL the deals I had with them. Just hold your horses and they'll resolve it. If you can make it to the White Plains show, it is prolly easiest for you to just bring the animal back to them, explain the situation, and this will be resolved. I am sure no one at Outback is trying to rip anyone off over an $150 thayeri deal.

 

[Lucille]

Once the snake changed hands, it would void any warranty or agreement in my opinion.

If you think of the snake as evidence, once the snake left the buyer's possession, the chain of evidence is broken, especially as the third party has not been named.

No. The snake has not been sold, it is simply not in the buyer's possession. If it had been left overnight at a vet office or if the owner had to leave the his snakes with a friend while he went out of town, he would not lose warranties.
As for the chain of evidence being broken, as long as the seller agrees it is the same snake, that is what counts.
The gender is not going to change by virtue of it going somewhere for a few days. This is not like a gun in a murder case. I don't think anyone would even suggest that a third party would tamper with this snake by transplanting junk onto it.

 

[hhmoore]

Why has no one asked him to supply the third party's name? It is against BOI rules to post information gotten from a third party without identifying said third party.

I had been avoiding looking at this thread, but she's right...it seems like the bulk of this thread is based on the word of an unidentified party. That doesn't fly here.
And, as long as we're on the subject of things that don't fly, it has been a long time since posting pics like that (Picard) was acceptable on the BOI (because they are generally disruptive and/or off topic in nature, as are the ensuing posts)

 

[Snake-Queen]

No. The snake has not been sold, it is simply not in the buyer's possession. If it had been left overnight at a vet office or if the owner had to leave the his snakes with a friend while he went out of town, he would not lose warranties.
As for the chain of evidence being broken, as long as the seller agrees it is the same snake, that is what counts.
The gender is not going to change by virtue of it going somewhere for a few days. This is not like a gun in a murder case. I don't think anyone would even suggest that a third party would tamper with this snake by transplanting junk onto it.

My point is this ... the owner has not had possession of the snake for at the minimum of 2 weeks, anything could have happened to this snake during this time. I agree that snakes don't magically change sex, but if I was the seller I wouldn't take the snake back, after it being in 2 different collections without proper quarantine procedures. That is just me though. Maybe a credit.

I am still waiting for the name of this third party. All evidence has come from him, so until he is identified I reserve my right to dismiss all evidence as hearsay, therefore suspect in my opinion.

 

[Python Dreams]

I had an experience where I sold a very expensive snake to a breeder who has probably produced hundreds of thousands of snakes. We both sexed it as a male and away it went. Just about a year later he took it out to show someone, and just sexed it for the hell of it. It was a female. Didnt matter how much time had passed, or that he moved out of state, or maybe he had his hairdresser watch it for a week or two before she had her dogwalker watch it for a month. Anyway it was looked at, I sold a snake as a male and it was a female. He did not want a female even though she has some considerable size and I had to come up with just under $10,000 to buy this snake back. She just produced her second clutch here.

My point is that all of the little details about who had it, who sexed it, or this amount of time passed, etc... Is all pretty much bs IMO... If Josh agrees that is was the same snake, then the rest is irrelevant. If you sale a sexed snake wrong, that is your error, regardless of time. If you only guarantee the sex of the snake on arrival, then that should be stated in your TOS.

 

[Lucille]

My point is this ... the owner has not had possession of the snake for at the minimum of 2 weeks, anything could have happened to this snake during this time. I agree that snakes don't magically change sex, but if I was the seller I wouldn't take the snake back, after it being in 2 different collections without proper quarantine procedures. That is just me though. Maybe a credit.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying above. But it is substantially different from the quote below:

Once the snake changed hands, it would void any warranty or agreement in my opinion.

I'm sure whether or not it had travelled to a different collection, if the seller gets the critter back, it needs to be quarantined. You make a good point though, the more exposure, the more risk.

 

[Matt2979]

My point is that all of the little details about who had it, who sexed it, or this amount of time passed, etc... Is all pretty much bs IMO... If Josh agrees that is was the same snake, then the rest is irrelevant. If you sale a sexed snake wrong, that is your error, regardless of time. If you only guarantee the sex of the snake on arrival, then that should be stated in your TOS.

Exactly! If the seller did indeed make a mistake, it doesn't matter what gain the buyer coulda', woulda', shoulda' gotten out of it. If the seller didn't make the mistake in the first place, the buyer would not be in this position. If someone makes gain off of my mistake, it was still my mistake so it would actually make me feel a little better that my mistake didn't just cause problems for my buyer.

It really doesn't matter what proof is shown to any of us. If it is proven to Outback Reptiles that this is the same animal that was purchased as a female, but is actually a male, their not doing anything about it will look really bad to me, regardless of their TOS.

 

[bxjoon]

Exactly! If the seller did indeed make a mistake, it doesn't matter what gain the buyer coulda', woulda', shoulda' gotten out of it. If the seller didn't make the mistake in the first place, the buyer would not be in this position. If someone makes gain off of my mistake, it was still my mistake so it would actually make me feel a little better that my mistake didn't just cause problems for my buyer.

It really doesn't matter what proof is shown to any of us. If it is proven to Outback Reptiles that this is the same animal that was purchased as a female, but is actually a male, their not doing anything about it will look really bad to me, regardless of their TOS.

 

[Snake-Queen]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying above. But it is substantially different from the quote below:



I'm sure whether or not it had travelled to a different collection, if the seller gets the critter back, it needs to be quarantined. You make a good point though, the more exposure, the more risk.

I re-read this

Once the snake changed hands, it would void any warranty or agreement in my opinion.

and I just didn't get what I was thinking into the proper words.

 

[SPJ]

The snake was mis-sexed. The buyer deserves a refund. QT issues?.......C'mon, this is Outback. They have fresh imports, CH babies, established animals, etc all out on display right next to each other. In this case I think the QT aspect is a moot point.

 

[Snake-Queen]

Everyone seems to be missing my point.

All the information we have been given was supplied by a third party, which is against the rules ... especially since tithe third party has not been named.

I find it interesting that many BOI regulars have not called the OP out on it before now. So until this 3rd party is named, there is no evidence.

 

[FireStorm]

Everyone seems to be missing my point.

All the information we have been given was supplied by a third party, which is against the rules ... especially since tithe third party has not been named.

I find it interesting that many BOI regulars have not called the OP out on it before now. So until this 3rd party is named, there is no evidence.

I agree completely. I also think that the evidence (picture) isn't very good to begin with in addition to being provided by an unknown 3rd party.

 

[bloodybaroness]

Everyone seems to be missing my point.

All the information we have been given was supplied by a third party, which is against the rules ... especially since tithe third party has not been named.

I find it interesting that many BOI regulars have not called the OP out on it before now. So until this 3rd party is named, there is no evidence.

This.

I agree completely. I also think that the evidence (picture) isn't very good to begin with in addition to being provided by an unknown 3rd party.

and this.

However, Josh did say he was working on a way for them to confirm the sex of the snake. I have no doubt in my mind that Outback will handle this.