Helenthereef
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Now that IS interesting - the entire clutch had double embryos?
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2 headed ball what to do?
- Thread starter nickyp0
- Start date
Now that IS interesting - the entire clutch had double embryos?
nickyp0
New member
yes every one of them.
on a side note it looks like i did not have to put it down it just died on its own
on a side note it looks like i did not have to put it down it just died on its own
RobNJ
New member
My method of choice...I've put down thousands of lobsters and fish this way, and actually had to put a snake down last week due to severe developmental problems.
...do it with conviction.
Helenthereef
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yes every one of them.
on a side note it looks like i did not have to put it down it just died on its own
Sad, but at least it eases the problem of how to do it....Still VERY interested in what may have caused twins in the entire clutch. Were there any successful twin hatchings or were all the second embryos undeveloped?
snowgyre
Well-known member
I'm sorry to hear that, but it's for the best and saved you from a grim task.
It is interesting that everything was a double embryo. It may be twinning, or it may be a malfunction of the shelling organ within the female. Once your babies emerge I would dissect the internal 'eggs' to see what they're composed of. If it's just fluid, then it's a shelling organ problem. If there's yolk, then the problem is a little more up the track. If it's actually got an embryo in there, either fertilized or unfertilized, now that would be interesting. I've never heard of this happening before.
It is interesting that everything was a double embryo. It may be twinning, or it may be a malfunction of the shelling organ within the female. Once your babies emerge I would dissect the internal 'eggs' to see what they're composed of. If it's just fluid, then it's a shelling organ problem. If there's yolk, then the problem is a little more up the track. If it's actually got an embryo in there, either fertilized or unfertilized, now that would be interesting. I've never heard of this happening before.
nickyp0
New member
they were all under developed . just like the one in the pic.
RobNJ
New member
Maybe they were the yolks, and not undeveloped embryos.
Focal
New member
nickyp0
New member
once the neonate leaves the egg i will split the other egg open. and post my findings
Helenthereef
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Photos please , if you can bear it.
hhmoore
tired & cranky shadow
No! Not with snakes...it doesn't work the way it does with rodents, and is a far cry from humane.
hhmoore
tired & cranky shadow
That's what the pic looked like (I'm glad I scrolled down to find this before responding)
nickyp0
New member
well the 2 i found just now it looked like it was left over yoke and fat. the fatty part looked like an extra embryo.
hhmoore
tired & cranky shadow
That's what I'm seeing in the pic (glad I scrolled down far enough to find this...but my phone didn't want to post, so I don't know what has happened since my last post)
SirenSanJose
aka: dheideman
yes every one of them.
on a side note it looks like i did not have to put it down it just died on its own
Sorry to hear that. Poor little guy.
So looking at the photo, it almost looks like some kind of chimerism instead of an improper split embryo? The pattern and color on the ''top' head and neck look totally different than on the rest of the body-- there's that "seam" right at about 11:45 where everything changes. The one's almost "leopard-like" while the other resembles, almost, a mismarked pinstripe or something. Is this the case, or am I just seeing things?
nickyp0
New member
if you look at it, its almost like there was 2 different morphs fighting each other from the heads it looks like normal and as you go down to the 3rd kink it changes color to a cinnamon color.
FireStorm
New member
I'm inclined to agree with Helen, it results in instant total destruction of the brain, so while it sounds unpleasant it isn't inhumane. The drugs used for euthanasia don't necessarily work well on reptiles because of the way they metabolize the drugs....I have even seen it go badly with mammals...so going to the vet may not be the most humane thing, especially if it isn't a reptile vet.
R. Eventide
So say we all!
I, too, don't wish to turn this into another euthanasia methods thread, but I also feel the need to educate people....
Uhhh.... If it's that much, methinks you need another vet. I had a vet put down a leopard gecko for less than $20. I realize not every vet will be that cheap, but $200 is beyond excessive.
Actually, no. What a proper reptile vet does is administer an overdose of anesthetic. This basically makes the animal "go to sleep" and then pass away. The only pain the animal feels is the stick of the needle.
The chemical argument is also flawed. Anesthetic used to euthanize reptiles has an extremely short half-life: two days. I have yet to see documented evidence of reptiles euthanized by anesthetic causing deaths of animals that ate them. (I recall reading an article that said an animal that ate another euthanized by anesthetic cannot die from said anesthetic, but I don't have a reference at the moment.) Burying the reptile almost removes the chance of an animal finding it and eating it. If you're really worried, dig deep. You could also burn the animal yourself if you're really, really worried.
If you're seriously that concerned about animals dying because of the amount of anesthetic administered to a tiny reptile, methinks you should be more worried about the larger mammals that are euthanized in the same manner....
I do agree with the rest of your comments, though, especially about the CO2.
Uh, actually, the proper reptile euthanasia meds work extremely well.
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Most of the information put forth here by me is from my reptile vet, who has decades of experience. Not saying he can't be wrong; I'm simply showing I'm not entirely talking out of my butt.
Uhhh.... If it's that much, methinks you need another vet. I had a vet put down a leopard gecko for less than $20. I realize not every vet will be that cheap, but $200 is beyond excessive.
Actually, no. What a proper reptile vet does is administer an overdose of anesthetic. This basically makes the animal "go to sleep" and then pass away. The only pain the animal feels is the stick of the needle.
The chemical argument is also flawed. Anesthetic used to euthanize reptiles has an extremely short half-life: two days. I have yet to see documented evidence of reptiles euthanized by anesthetic causing deaths of animals that ate them. (I recall reading an article that said an animal that ate another euthanized by anesthetic cannot die from said anesthetic, but I don't have a reference at the moment.) Burying the reptile almost removes the chance of an animal finding it and eating it. If you're really worried, dig deep. You could also burn the animal yourself if you're really, really worried.
If you're seriously that concerned about animals dying because of the amount of anesthetic administered to a tiny reptile, methinks you should be more worried about the larger mammals that are euthanized in the same manner....
I do agree with the rest of your comments, though, especially about the CO2.
Uh, actually, the proper reptile euthanasia meds work extremely well.
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Most of the information put forth here by me is from my reptile vet, who has decades of experience. Not saying he can't be wrong; I'm simply showing I'm not entirely talking out of my butt.
R. Eventide
So say we all!
And here I didn't even respond to the actual topic.
I'm glad you didn't have to make a decision on euthanasia. I'm sad for the little guy, though. But yeah, if he's that kinked, there isn't much ya can do for him. I'm sorry he didn't make it.
I'm glad you didn't have to make a decision on euthanasia. I'm sad for the little guy, though. But yeah, if he's that kinked, there isn't much ya can do for him. I'm sorry he didn't make it.
R. Eventide
So say we all!
I stand corrected.
Sorry about the three posts in a row.
The AMVA euthanasia methods report from 2007 (http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/downloads/reports_out/euthanasia.pdf) does actually say that animals that eat others euthanized by anesthetics can indeed be affected by the anesthetic. And despite the half-life, it can persist in carcasses. So I was wrong there. (As a side note, this part of my previous argument was not put forth by my vet; it is what I recalled from previous searches on this topic, though apparently, I was really smoking something last time.)
However, it does not give any details on how much an animal would have to ingest to cause problems. I highly doubt the amount used in small reptiles is enough to cause issues with anything that eats them. Again, burying the animal deep enough or destroying the body yourself negates the problem of something eating it. (There are actually laws for burying bodies of anesthetized animals, though they appear to vary by state.) In addition, the AMVA article says that the benefits of using anesthetic outweigh the problems, which I do agree with, especially considering the low incidences of wildlife poisoning from improperly-disposed animals.
If you don't feel comfortable disposing of an anesthetically-euthanized animal's body yourself or paying the vet to incinerate it, then use one of the other accepted reptile euthanasia methods (listed in the same PDF, some of which have already been mentioned in this thread).
Okay, sorry about all that. I'm going to shut up now.
Sorry about the three posts in a row.
The AMVA euthanasia methods report from 2007 (http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/downloads/reports_out/euthanasia.pdf) does actually say that animals that eat others euthanized by anesthetics can indeed be affected by the anesthetic. And despite the half-life, it can persist in carcasses. So I was wrong there. (As a side note, this part of my previous argument was not put forth by my vet; it is what I recalled from previous searches on this topic, though apparently, I was really smoking something last time.
)However, it does not give any details on how much an animal would have to ingest to cause problems. I highly doubt the amount used in small reptiles is enough to cause issues with anything that eats them. Again, burying the animal deep enough or destroying the body yourself negates the problem of something eating it. (There are actually laws for burying bodies of anesthetized animals, though they appear to vary by state.) In addition, the AMVA article says that the benefits of using anesthetic outweigh the problems, which I do agree with, especially considering the low incidences of wildlife poisoning from improperly-disposed animals.
If you don't feel comfortable disposing of an anesthetically-euthanized animal's body yourself or paying the vet to incinerate it, then use one of the other accepted reptile euthanasia methods (listed in the same PDF, some of which have already been mentioned in this thread).
Okay, sorry about all that. I'm going to shut up now.
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