Bad Guy STOLEN DRAGONS!! (tim or amanda miller)

[SPJ]

2.) I posted this because I wanted people on here to be aware that they were actually reported as stolen property.

Were they actually stolen or did you file that report out of malice?
You should be aware that filing a false police report is a crime and you can/will be prosecuted for it.

 

[AndreaH]

Tina this was a domestic issue that you brought to this website and it should not have been put as a Bad Guy thread. Instead you should have reported this all on Informative Thread, but you didnt do that. I believe that in my opinion you are angry (which is understandable), but you are also trying to discredit them by calling your ex boyfriend a thief and his daughter was also included in accusation. In MO I think you brought this here to ruin any future business adventures they may have in the future. I also believe that you are not angry that the dragons are gone, but the extra income from these dragons produced. Not trying to get into ANY of your personal business, but since you two were not married and Amanda states that Tim is the one who paid for these dragon breeders how does that become stolen property of yours? Just a heads up with your stolen report with the police...they will ask you to provide proof that you are the rightful owner and since dragons dont come with serial numbers they will be asking you for payment receipts and detailed information from the original breeder, so I hope you can produce it. Another thing is this is actually considered more of a custody issue because they are living breathing property, so if it does go to small claims court and your really wanting to go that far then they will ask for more proof of ownership. As I said before this is all my own opinion of this thread right now.

 

[JColt]

However, since threads aren't removed for any reason other than rule violations, and Admin/Moderation staff don't play judge and jury when it comes to determining whether a statement is true or not, the thread's here to stay.

I know the thread stays and I have always agreed that they do. Since she's not responding I'm leaning towards her lying. If I was the one named in the thread I would be letting cops know she filed a false report and I would keep hammering away at it. If some one said I was a person who would break into a home and steal I'd be out for blood.

 

[AndreaH]

Before I would go to the police about her filing a false report I would go see a lawyer first to nail Tina for a false police report that was filed, slander, harassment, and etc. And Tim could actually be doing this now, but once again that is more of getting into their personal discrepancy. I agree though that I also wouldnt take these accusations very lightly and I too would go for blood, but thats just me and what I would do. From what I am gathering is this wasnt a break in, but a couple separating from each other and Tim didnt want conflict and moved out with his daughter and dragons while Tina was at work. No break in, but more of a moving out type deal. I could be wrong, but thats what Im gathering from all of the posts made from Amanda.

 

[sschind]

I cannot say too much at this point, however, I will try to clarify with the following:
1.) I reported the dragons stolen on July 11, 2012 when I arrived home from work and found them gone. This included 25 breeders (approx. 6 were HB's) and 80+ babies.
2.) I posted this because I wanted people on here to be aware that they were actually reported as stolen property.
3.) The names have to be on the title according to the rules.
4.) We were not married nor did we have kids together (not sure why that matters)

So this was initiated to inform everyone that these were reported stolen.
I hope this helps you have a better understanding of my post.
Thank you.

They may have been reported as stolen but there seems to be an issue as to whether or not they were really stolen. That is the point that most people here are making. You need to provide proof that they were your dragons in order for them to have been stolen. Unfortunately,because of your post, Tim is left in the position that he may have to prove that they were in fact his property and therefore not stolen. It all comes down to were they his, yours or did they belong to both of you. You say they were stolen so that means you are claiming they were your property. Amanda says they belonged to her father and that they were not stolen. Only one of you can be right. You are going to have to provide proof if you want the people here to believe you.

 

[Plethora Of Pythons LLC]

As to number 4) you didn't say if you were or were not in a relationship or living together. And, yes it matters as it would show whether this is a real post about theft or a domestic property dispute brought into the public forum. This would not be he first time a domestic squabble ended up in a thread here.

 

[saharazdragonz]

I don't think some people are REALLY judging this situation fairly.

Tina this was a domestic issue that you brought to this website and it should not have been put as a Bad Guy thread. Instead you should have reported this all on Informative Thread, but you didnt do that. I believe that in my opinion you are angry (which is understandable), but you are also trying to discredit them by calling your ex boyfriend a thief and his daughter was also included in accusation. In MO I think you brought this here to ruin any future business adventures they may have in the future. I also believe that you are not angry that the dragons are gone, but the extra income from these dragons produced. Not trying to get into ANY of your personal business, but since you two were not married and Amanda states that Tim is the one who paid for these dragon breeders how does that become stolen property of yours? Just a heads up with your stolen report with the police...they will ask you to provide proof that you are the rightful owner and since dragons dont come with serial numbers they will be asking you for payment receipts and detailed information from the original breeder, so I hope you can produce it. Another thing is this is actually considered more of a custody issue because they are living breathing property, so if it does go to small claims court and your really wanting to go that far then they will ask for more proof of ownership. As I said before this is all my own opinion of this thread right now.

Greathouse I agree that their personal dispute needs to be resolved outside of this website and out of this thread. I personally do not care what separated them, but the question that I do care about is "WHO is the rightful owner of the dragons?" "WHO do we contact in the future to purchase a dragon from these breeders?" "WHO is responsible for making sure all orders have been taken care of since this seems to be a termination of a business?". As stated in the title of this thread "STOLEN DRAGONS!!(tim and amanda miller)" was posted and started by Tina Noll, so when you say this has nothing to do with business Im very sorry to inform you but it does. Does it have to go into their personal problems...NO, but as already stated by me and a mod. this thread is here to stay. Tina now has accused Tim or Amanda Miller of theft here on this website and could have harmed any potential business for either of them in the future and it needs to be cleared up ASAP.

I was online with JoHo. I understood in a split second of reading Tina's post what could have happened. Having been witness to several domestic disputes in my life, I do know that there are two sides to every story. How can one or the other say the dragons were theirs when they both worked outside the house and brought money into the house, shared expenses etc... If she worked the business it seems to me then, that Tim and Tina had a partnership in the business. Also statements have been made about the house being hers and the dragons being his, but not by either of the parties themselves only by a daughter who will naturally side with her dad (That is understandable). The Fact that Tina posted what she did in regard to the dragons being taken does not seem questionable to me. Maybe she should have used better judgement but I am sure she was shocked when she found the dragons gone in the first place. She most likelydid the first thing on her mind which was to report them stolen. However the fact that the dragons were taken while Tina was at work is questionable at best. If she was holding the animals that did not belong to her then Tim could have had authorities go into the home, with her present, and take possession of them. I could be completely wrong but it's HIS subterfuge that causes me to question him, not her. Everyone is jumping on her like she is a low life (without actually coming out and saying it) and I don't think that is fair without all the facts. That's all I have to say. Except that I have always done business with Tina personally so IDK it feels like maybe she was owed more than some dragons that were already supposed to have been sold (why didn't he see to it that they got to the purchaser if he was the "OWNER"?) and a few thrown in for payment of electric.

 

[Lucille]

Everyone is jumping on her like she is a low life (without actually coming out and saying it) and I don't think that is fair without all the facts.

It is she who posted. If there are facts missing, it was she who chose not to post them.

 

[Mistyck]

It is she who posted. If there are facts missing, it was she who chose not to post them.

I agree. She didn't post that it was a domestic dispute, she posted like someone had stolen her property. It's a domestic problem, not a breaking and entering like she had led people to believe.

 

[rosebud945]

If she was holding the animals that did not belong to her then Tim could have had authorities go into the home, with her present, and take possession of them

You make some interesting and valid points in your post, but this is not one of them. Only in animal abuse cases do you want to engage authorities to remove animals from a facility or home or in cases in which the animals are no longer wanted. What would likely happen is that the authorities would take possession of the animals until authorities determine who has rightful ownership, and only if they deem the ownership fit. As a rescue/rehabber, I have seen cases like this and they usually do not turn out well for the animals.

 

[Fangthane]

I was online with JoHo. I understood in a split second of reading Tina's post what could have happened...Except that I have always done business with Tina personally....

Try not to pull anything while patting yourself on the back. Unless people happened to be watching the BOI very closely, and caught one of her previous failed attempts at posting a thread that would stick, they would be pretty likely to have missed her subtle hints such as where she said "someone stole 'MiDragons'". You clearly have some degree of an association with her, so it seems fairly likely that you were privy to the fact that Tim and Amanda Miller had lived in her house.

Having been witness to several domestic disputes in my life, I do know that there are two sides to every story. How can one or the other say the dragons were theirs when they both worked outside the house and brought money into the house, shared expenses etc... it feels like maybe she was owed more than some dragons that were already supposed to have been sold...

There are indeed at least two sides to this story and you only seem to want to see Tina's side. As far as I can tell, they weren't married. Unless there's a 'common law marriage' setup in Michigan, and they happen to fall under whatever guidelines are necessary to be included in that category, I don't believe this becomes an issue of Community Property. IF the dragons truly were Tim's property, why should he feel compelled to leave them with someone he no longer wishes to be in a relationship with? Do YOU know for a fact that their business wasn't based on the premise that the dragons were his deal, while the chameleons were hers? Is there something that the rest of us aren't seeing?

Everyone is jumping on her like she is a low life (without actually coming out and saying it) and I don't think that is fair without all the facts

Maybe it's just me..but I gotta say that you don't come off as the most objective third party. There are precious few facts that are apparent so far in this thread. One of them is that the OP has gone out of her way to leave out crucial information. It seems pretty likely to me that this was done for purely self-serving reasons in order to skew our perceptions of the situation and capture the sympathy vote. She gleefully portrayed this as something that the masses would instantly see as a breaking and entering scenario where some low-life stranger violated the sanctity of her home and made away with her property. I suspect that the fact that she was in a relationship with the people she claims are responsible for this didn't just happen to slip her mind.

 

[AndreaH]

Sarahzdragonz you wanted to quote me and thats fine, but if you really took the time to read them they also state MY own personal feelings towards this thread and what has been done. I do not make up the minds of this whole community because they have minds of their own and they can make their own opinions from this thread. If you had actually done any research on me such as view my personal profile then you know that 2 years ago I was put in almost the same situation as this, but when my husband left for a short time (a week) he knew exactly where he stood with MY dragons. Only one dragon out of 15 (and I also had hatchlings) was his to take if he chose to take any of his animals because that dragon was a gift to him in our marriage. I had also been quoted the law here in Indiana that he could come into MY (titled in my maiden name) house and take what he wished within 30 days of him leaving and I could not stop him. That is because we have been together for 14 years and married now for 9 years, so as the law sees it he was entitled to half of what I owned. And if you read one of my quotes very closely I also stated that she is angry (which is understandable) have you ever thought to ask how I would know that feeling? Of course not because you went straight to judging me assuming I am judging her. I am not judging anyone, but I can tell you how it feels to be dumped and how angry and hurt I was and I personally can say I wanted to destroy my husband at that time because the anger and hurt got the better of me. Now with this all said can you understand that I do understand the situation very well and honestly I still stick by what I have said. This was a domestic dispute and should NOT have been started here. I do NOT know the laws in Michigan, however I can tell you how this could go down in Indiana and I already stated it in earlier posts. In my own personal situation I could provide that ALL of my dragons were purchased by me from my joint account with my husbands name on it because as people would say I was the bread winner in this house and ALL the breeders at time of purchase had only spoken to me unless I asked my husband to please reply while Im feeding or cleaning my little monsters. I also NEVER used a signature such as Tim and Tina Miller at the end of any of my business dealings with these breeders. It was only my name at the end of EVERY communication. With all of that said whom is judging whom now? These are My own opinions of the situation and the information that has been given or lack of information given. I do NOT want to get into their personal information or any of their domestic dispute. Just like I shouldnt have had to explain mine to you, but I did so because you are wanting to assume I dont understand what is going on. Like I said before this IS MY own opinion of the situation and this thread and I firmly believe it was started as a Bad Guy thread for a reason that is wrong.

 

[saharazdragonz]

If you read her post just before mine

It is she who posted. If there are facts missing, it was she who chose not to post them.

Tina Stated that the police report was filed when she got home and found out that the dragons were missing. At that point she MIGHT have suspected that Tim had taken them or not. But people are questioning her and claiming she was maliciously filing a false report. Also something was mentioned about white trash, maybe not about her directly but for heaven sake let's keep the thread to professionalism.

 

[saharazdragonz]

I quoted you because

Your post stated that you believed that Tina brought the others names in to destroy their future business ventures. I am sorry if I wrongly interpreted it this way, but it really,seemed that it was meant to be slanderous toward Tina. I thought Fauna's BOI was to expose people for bad business dealings. If Tim took animals that she was supposed to have sold, that could be bad for her not him. If they were already sold, and he left them with her, then why didn't he simply fulfill the transaction since the animals were his? I read my post several times and while ApexPredatorBoids; rudely (IMO) pointed out the he didn't think I was being objective, I personally felt that I was simply posting MY opinion based on verifiable facts that I DO have because of transactions that I have had with Tina in the past. I did not intimately know this couple beyond that they have been listed as TimTinaMiller on fauna. I have spoken with Tina several times on the phone while arranging to purchase dragons. I was judging the situation on what I do know. And I will repeat that I have exclusively dealt with Tina over the past approximately 15 months. During which time I have purchased 6 dragons and all paypal payments went to Tina Noll. The last name being different did not cause me to question anything because I still use my name from a previous marriage on my paypal account due to the fact that was the name the account was established under. I thought nothing of her listing herself on fauna as TimTinaMiller or on Facebook as MillerTimTina because I innocently, assumed (albeit Incorrectly) that they were now a married couple.

My stake in this is that I now own animals from the breeders, MIDragons. I am looking to the future when someone asks me about the genetics of my animals and when MIDragons name is in the mud, the excellent quality of my animals won't be judged, that will have been tarnished by peoples opinions about the breeder. So should I say they came from Tina Noll, MIDragons or Tim Miller?

I don't think that as someone stated, Tina "gleefully (I added the italics) portrayed this as something that the masses would instantly see as a breaking and entering scenario where some low-life stranger violated the sanctity of her home and made away with her property." Another fact in this is that she named Tim up front, and based on the fact that I have never dealt with Tim and all payments have gone to her, I feel inclined to believe that he took something that he should not have. I know that there should be proof on both sides of this situation. So in closing I must reiterate that, I AGREE with Andrea's second quote, which posed the question, who do we deal with on questions in the future in regard to dragons purchased from MIDragons. Tina's phone number is the only number in my contact list.

 

[AndreaH]

In all honesty if you go to sell a clutch and you tell the purchaser the parents genetics and also give credit to Midragons on where you purchased the breeder its an honest answer. Midragons did not have horrible dragons by any means at all and that business should get the credit, but Midragons as of now is a terminated business. At the time the dragon was bought by you it was still Tim and Tina Miller and there is no shame in that and most people only put the business they dealt with not personal names of who they talked to.
Example, I just bought a female hypo trans from BloodBank, but I didnt talk to Steven because I actually dealt with Barry even though its actually Steven Barnes who owns BloodBank. I would give credit to BloodBank, but I would thank Barry for his great communication through out the transaction.
Any questions about the dragons that you have bought can either go to Tim or Tina for the fact you bought the dragon when they were still business partners. I believe it probably went to Tina dealing with the financial end of the business and Tim was more of the care giver of the adults and the hatchlings. That is probably also why he didnt send out the dragons himself. My guess is Tina dealt with all the incoming information while Tim dealt with all of the dragon related needs and even stated by Amanda in one of her posts "he doesnt deal with the computer". Right there with that one statement I understood pretty much what he took care of in the business and that was all of the dragons care which included feedings, incubators, building cages, cleaning, and my guess is he was also the one who prepared them for shipping as far as the boxes go. Tina I assumed took care of the information, emails, PayPal, website, and shipping labels.
Now with that said that is how I believe it went, but I could be wrong. And since this is a very good question you can always ask them both for the information your looking for if a dragon may get sick. All because they are no longer together doesnt mean they wont both help you to the best of their knowledge. That is what I would do if I need there help with one of their dragons.

 

[Lucille]

Tina Stated that the police report was filed when she got home and found out that the dragons were missing. At that point she MIGHT have suspected that Tim had taken them or not. But people are questioning her and claiming she was maliciously filing a false report. Also something was mentioned about white trash, maybe not about her directly but for heaven sake let's keep the thread to professionalism.

First of all, I am questioning why you seem to be speaking for Tina and what she may or may not have suspected. Can she not speak for herself?
Secondly, I did not mention white trash. Posting that in a post responding to mine is more than unprofessional.

If you come onto the BOI and simply start spouting off, talking for others, people will likely have an extremely poor opinion of the value of what you say.

 

[saharazdragonz]

Not trying to spout off.

I stand by my previous statements. Andrea, I have issue with three things in your replies to my postings. First I am not speaking for Tina. But others did, more or less speak against her inferring that she had was maliciously trying to destroy business for Tim and that he should seek legal council. (Please note that I said others, plural so I'm not pointing the finger at one person) I am only concerned for the reputation of MIDragons, whoever the owners are because I own some of what I will be using as my foundation breeders from them. You seemed as well to assume, guessed I think was the wording you used, from his what daughter said in regard to him not dealing with the computer, that he did all the grunt work. Tina has mentioned to me coming home from work, to feed babies and cleaning cages as well in our past conversations. I was trying bring to light, facts and state them as evidence, not guessing or accusing. I have not brought any accusations against Tim. If the situation was the other way around, I would still say the same thing. YOU stated that this is business related and that was why you were not deleting the the thread. I agreed with that. You also say, in answer to my concerns, basically Tim and Tina's reputation should not discolor people's opinions of my dragons purchased from them, as a business. In addition, as way of clarifying your point, you mentioned your dealings with individuals within a well known company, as evidence that people will not have any ill will, questioning or feelings of unethical practices toward MIDragons, because of this BOI. That is not always the case. Myself, I judge the dragon's quality but I know of people who have heard the rumors or read information in a BOI (Not saying it was on Fauna) of the company you mentioned and have chosen not to purchase from them because of that reason. Therein lies the basis for my concern.

Second I referred specifically which parts of your posts I was replying to and even stated that I agreed with the second quote that you posted. I also quoted another person's rant in my post. It was not quoted with the standard quotes because I was unable to bring their quote into my reply. I did not know I could only respond to one thread at a time. I also never said you were calling people white trash and if you read through the thread you will see that someone else did offhandedly refer to the issue of this situation contributing to the the view of world outside of reptile breeding as that we are all white trash. I apologize for any insult that you may have felt that I intended when I mentioned that information. I had no such intention. I will clarify that I was replying to several things stated through out the entire seven pages of thread

Third, in those seven pages, it seemed that some people were looking for some facts in the situation, and (IMO) I replied with facts that have. I wasn't aware that I was "spouting off". I thought that this was a forum to contribute information in regard to postings and I was simply stating the information that I have, without questioning motives or name calling. If people have a poor opinion of me for my honest statements, then it's because they don't agree with the facts.

As I said in my previous post, My stake in this is that I now own animals from the breeders, MIDragons. I am looking to the future when someone asks me about the genetics of my animals and when MIDragons name is in the mud, the excellent quality of my animals may not be what they are judged according to. I am concerned that their value and quality will have been tarnished by what others perceive as a scandal surrounding the ethics and intentions of the breeder. So should I say they came from Tina Noll, MIDragons or Tim Miller? Who do I contact in regard to these animal should a need arise? And how do I contact them? Those are professional questions that have been asked and have not been answered, by either Tim or Tina.

I apologize in advance if anyone takes this as spouting off or dragging this matter out. AT this point, I am only answering statements and or question which appear to be addressed to me. I understand now why Tina and Tim have chosen to stay mum on this subject.

 

[saharazdragonz]

Thank you

You make some interesting and valid points in your post, but this is not one of them. Only in animal abuse cases do you want to engage authorities to remove animals from a facility or home or in cases in which the animals are no longer wanted. What would likely happen is that the authorities would take possession of the animals until authorities determine who has rightful ownership, and only if they deem the ownership fit. As a rescue/rehabber, I have seen cases like this and they usually do not turn out well for the animals.

I'm sorry, I haven't had much experience in regard to family disputes over animals, only personal property items. I simply thought if Tim produced information that showed definitively that the dragons were his, it would be an open and shut case. He would have been able to go in and point out what belonged to him and take possession of the animal(s). I wasn't aware that the authorities could take possession of an animal. Thank you for the info.

 

[saharazdragonz]

Again I apologize, I used the name Andrea and I meant Lucille. So again I have mixed up posts, the people who posted and what was said in various post. Please excuse me I am a wreck over this situation. I have been a bundle of nerves about it and if I wrote something that did not apply to you or Andrea I beg your forgiveness.

 

[AndreaH]

As I said in my previous post, My stake in this is that I now own animals from the breeders, MIDragons. I am looking to the future when someone asks me about the genetics of my animals and when MIDragons name is in the mud, the excellent quality of my animals may not be what they are judged according to. I am concerned that their value and quality will have been tarnished by what others perceive as a scandal surrounding the ethics and intentions of the breeder. So should I say they came from Tina Noll, MIDragons or Tim Miller? Who do I contact in regard to these animal should a need arise? And how do I contact them? Those are professional questions that have been asked and have not been answered, by either Tim or Tina.

I gave you a truthful response to that matter and yet you still seem to not understand it, but ONCE AGAIN that is only what I would do IF I was in this situation.


I did not know I could only respond to one thread at a time. I also never said you were calling people white trash and if you read through the thread you will see that someone else did offhandedly refer to the issue of this situation contributing to the the view of world outside of reptile breeding as that we are all white trash.

If you are referring to me as the you part then you are mistaken. I at NO time called anything white trash. I do however understand why that post was written and that is because this was a domestic issue that should NOT have been brought here to this website and should have been dealt with behind closed doors. You say you are afraid for the future because of how some people view this thread then try to understand the basis for that statement. This was a domestic issue and it was in poor taste to have been posted as a Bad Guy thread that named Tim Miller or Amanda Miller as thiefs.

If Tina was just truly trying to Inform the reptile community then why did she not go for an INFORMATIVE heading? I still do stand behind what is my opinion and that was because she was angry and did want to destroy any future in the breeding world for Tim and Amanda Miller, but once AGAIN that is only my opinion out of thousands in this community.

YOU stated that this is business related and that was why you were not deleting the the thread.

I am NOT a mod. on this website, so just to make you aware.... I do NOT have the power to delete a thread. Once again you are making an assumption about me that in FACT is not true. I however AM a member and have been here on this website for 3 years, so I do know the rules that they have put in place.


Right now if you want to keep quoting PLEASE make very sure that it is my quotes only because I can not answer for others opions.


I'm sorry, I haven't had much experience in regard to family disputes over animals, only personal property items. I simply thought if Tim produced information that showed definitively that the dragons were his, it would be an open and shut case. He would have been able to go in and point out what belonged to him and take possession of the animal(s). I wasn't aware that the authorities could take possession of an animal.

The law should not have been contacted over this because even here in Indiana they can confiscate any animals if they see fit. If your animals are not registered with the town and/or county... then oh yes, they can take them and you might never see them again. That was a very poor judgement call on Tina's part especially if she knew it might be Tim that took them. I personally would have contacted Tim before I would have contacted the law just to make sure he had them and that they were safe.




At this moment Saharaz YOU are the one that seems to be tarnashing your OWN future in breeding with your posts. You are not thinking objectively and you are also not quoting correctly. I have read every post to this thread and I have reread, but yet YOU are still only using MY name and answering someone elses concerns. In the future I would appreciate if you ONLY use my name to answer MY posts and not someone elses posts or concerns.