Bad Guy RodentPro- Zoonotic disease warning

[allreptiles1966]

I interviewed Kristen last night about her experience. You can listen here: http://www.herpnation.com/audio/breaking-news-kristen-wiley/?simple_nav_category=audio

We also made contact with Rodent Pro, and we're hoping to air their response, and get their side of the story.

Thanks,

Dan Krull
Herp Nation Media

Nice Dan.Thanks for the thread.

Sorry Harold.

 

[Lynn]

How sad for the employees to have to kill all those rodents for "nothing." What a huge financial loss. I wonder if insurance covers them at all. Hmm, I was picking up frozen mice elsewhere last week and was told they needed a little notice to get adults together due to the shortage. I wonder if they were referring to this. It will affect all of us, even those who weren't RP customers.

It has affected the breeder we get them from in Texas..They are getting slammed with new customers.

 

[KORBIN5895]

Like anything else on the BOI, people are free to read information here and form their own opinions. There is no 'we', it is not necessary that all of us have the same opinion about either business issues or health issues.
There are two separate issues here: How Rodent Pro handled this issue, and the level of risk people face on exposure to lymphocytic choriomeningitis in general.

The problem is people are just jumping to conclusions. No one but the op has actually fingered rp in this. Even the article me that's been linked doesn't name names. Also there is more than one commercial rodent breeder in southern Indiana. American rodent is from there also

Here is what I have dug up. Sorry if it has been posted all ready.

http://www.farmworldonline.com/news/NewsArticle.asp?newsid=14991

this reads as follows.

By MEGGIE. I. FOSTER
Assistant Editor

INDIANAPOLIS, Ind. — Busy and nerve-racking could only be the words to describe the month of June for the foreign animal disease (FAD) diagnostic team with the Indiana Board of Animal Health.
Dr. Jodi Lovejoy, district 8 field veterinarian with BOAH, can attest since she heads up the FAD division for the agency and has been on the road for three different, quite serious cases, investigating, collecting tissue samples, consulting with livestock producers and protecting public and animal health.

Just another day on the job for Dr. Lovejoy.

The most interesting case and the one that had the Board of Animal Health in a bout of both shock and awe and the occasional burst of uncomfortable laughter was a Lymphocytic Choriomeningitis outbreak in southern Indiana.

Lymphocytic Choriomeningitis known as LCM or LCMV is a rodent-born viral disease that affects nearly five percent of the mice population. Humans exposed to fresh mice or rat urine, dropping and saliva can become quite ill, Lovejoy explained. While some humans do not show clinical symptoms, others show biphasic symptoms meaning that there are two phases of symptoms - the first is flu-like including chest pain and testicular pain. The second phase of symptoms includes meningitis, fever and severe headache. Lovejoy also added that pregnant women with LCM can spontaneously abort the fetus or the child will have birth defects and if the affected patient transplants an organ, the transplant recipient may become pass away, instantly.

The tip to an LCM case rang into BOAH’s office on May 2, when the agency was contacted by the Center for Disease Control (CDC).
“A very astute doctor noticed the symptoms for LCM, so he tested for it and sure enough … so he contacted the CDC right away,” she said.

After BOAH received the call, Dr. Lovejoy was on the road to southern Indiana the very same day the call came into the office. She found that the person affected with LCM worked at a commercial rodent production facility. The facility, which employed 52 works, was made up of four different buildings, housing a grand total of 156,000 adult mice and 13,500 adult rats, not including babies. The business produces, processes and packages live product and frozen product, much of which is contracted to exotic animal farms and zoos.

Dr. Lovejoy found that 13 of the facility’s employees were positive for LCM, nine reported that there were ill and six sought medical care.

She sampled a total of 1,820 mice and rats - 399 rats tested all of which were negative and 1,491 mice, 296 of which tested positive. There was an infection rate in the mice of 21 percent, determined Lovejoy.
She quickly wrote a quarantine for each building, putting a halt on sales, production and packaging.
Lovejoy, who worked closely with the owner of the facility, said that 20,000 to 30,000 mice and rat products were shipped per day, five days a week.

“This isn’t a common disease, so we weren’t sure how to proceed,” said Dr. Lovejoy, adding that six state and federal agencies were involved in the quarantine including Occupational Safety and Health Administration, Indiana Department of Health, Indiana Department of Environmental Management, the county health department, the CDC and BOAH. “The agencies quickly worked together to develop a game plan.”

Lovejoy said that if all mice and rats be were to be depopulated in all four barns, the buildings would be cleared and disinfected, then BOAH would lift the quarantine on the facility.

“Luckily, they did all their own depopulating and disinfecting, it worked out well, they were the experts,” she said, adding that OSHA required the employees to wear coveralls, foot wear, a mask and hoodie. “It was a huge nightmare they had to go through. We’re talking about thousands of rats, and aisle after aisle of boxes of mice. They ended up handling the trays (that housed the mice) three to four times during disinfection and depopulation for thousands of rats and mice.”

Lovejoy added that all the mice and rats were buried and they burned the litter.

“When we went back for an inspection, we found 12 mice running loose,” she said. “I remember the manager telling me that they couldn’t get every mouse. I said you have no other choice. The feces, the litter, they are contaminating the facility. We advised them to poison the water and that seemed to remedy the situation. We lifted the quarantine on July 11.”

In addition to the BOAH investigation, Lovejoy mentioned that the local county health department is requesting the shipping records from the facility.

“So we’ll continue to examine how this infection started,” she said.
Lovejoy, who worked in close contact with the facility’s owner, said that he estimated $750,000 worth of losses due to the quarantine and that it would cost $400,000 to repopulate.

“We can’t dream this stuff up,” said State Veterinarian Bret Marsh. “We’re just so fortunate to have such a great team here standing ready to deal with these kind of issues. And this is certainly a unique case – we’ve never seen anything like this.”
7/19/2012

Ted Adams @ RR

There are two thing I want to point out about this article. First the bold helps explain how it is lmv is contracted.

Next the underlined italics would jus suck.

 

[Granite]

I don't post here very often, so when I do I really like to let you know that I am doing so because I see a trend that isn't very fair, and ussually take up for the guy who is getting kicked. I know this is all very shocking, but truthfully, we should all be very surprised that this doesn't happen all the time with alot more producers, and with the press that is going to be generated, you can bet that alot of other producers of Feeder animals will be under much closer scrutiny.

Basically what I am saying is, my only problem here with how they have handled it was the lack of any sort of a notification to their customers about the "posibilities" of an issue with using their feeders. Couple that with what seems to be a very quick response of their euthanizing and sterilizing their facilities, and I'd wager that the worst is past. You don't just GET an outbreak like this in the short terms. Their feeders have probably had them for months, maybe longer, and except for their workers, noone seems to have gotten ill, at least knowingly, so I'd be really, really careful about making this a bigger issue than it is. Anyone who breeds animals in the millions will at some point have disease outbreaks. It's normal, and part of doing business. IMHO Rodent Pro is good in my book. They could have been a little more forthcoming with information, but in the face of already over a million in restarting costs, I'd say they are trying to keep from losing more customers in some sort of unreasonalbe panic, which this thread is helping to start. Just calm down ya'll....the problems already been handled, and I'd rather have Rodent pro back, competing, and keeping feeders costs down for all of us, than a bunch of internet keyboard jockey's making it worse for us all because the are ringing a bell that doesn't need to be rung over and over again.

Peace!

Shawn

 

[rosebud945]

Basically what I am saying is, my only problem here with how they have handled it was the lack of any sort of a notification to their customers about the "posibilities" of an issue with using their feeders.

I agree with this and I also believe that immune compromised people should also take responsibility for their own health if they are going to keep and be around pets, and people! I say this as a person who has had to do this. This disease is only one potentially dangerous zoonic disease that is carried by animals that are common in the wild and in the pet trade. Anyone who keeps reptiles, birds or mammals should exercise caution when they clean, meaning wear gloves and minimize dust that might contain fecal matter.

 

[laurarfl]

As far as ordering in the future, RP will probably have the cleanest facilities around after this! It's the nature of the industry to get contaminants. Any agricultural endeavor has its issues. And another thing to point out is that while RP did not notify all of its customers (because of the potential panic perhaps), they were quite busy dealing with the clean up and quarantine. I'm sure we can all imagine how devastating it would be to lose a major portion of our livelihoods. I wouldn't count RP as a "bad guy", I wouldn't panic, but since I have a health concern, I am also going to keep myself involved in this situation.

 

[laurarfl]

Donna,

I have been so complacent with my own protection which is probably why I feel concern. This thread definitely has me thinking about my own precautions. I was remembering all those mice I defrosted from the April shipment and handled casually. That is my job to take personal responsibility. But since we have about 70 herps on site right now, I have been careless and trying to work quickly. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[Inret]

Ugh, yikes. I got an April shipment for the year. I almost put it off for another month. Boy am I glad I didn't. I agree that RP will probably have the cleanest facilities around after this, but I still don't know how comfortable I am now. I might end up using MD instead.

 

[aldebono]

I haven't read through the whole thread as it blew up overnight or if frozen rodents are still a concern but,

The frozen rodents sold in Petco come from a facility that is supplied by Rodent Pro.

 

[Tekpc007]

I called RP this morning and they confirmed it was them , i spoke to Casey who works there. He would not go into detail and took my number for someone to call me back . I suggest you call them youself to confirm.

 

[Erin]

I called RP this morning and they confirmed it was them , i spoke to Casey who works there. He would not go into detail and took my number for someone to call me back . I suggest you call them youself to confirm.

I took your advice, and I'm glad I did. I read this entire thread, perused others on other forums for more info, networked on Facebook, and was completely unsatisfied due to unanswered questions.

I spoke with Pete this morning. I told him we purchased in late June and received our box on July 11th, the very day the Farm World article said the quarantine was lifted. Pete told me that after initial testing, the quarantine on rats was lifted. No rats were found to be infected. Only mice were found to have the virus. He said the rats and mice are kept in separate facilities and assured me that even the packaging was safe (I asked if mice and rats were packaged and shipped together). As we ONLY ordered rats from them, I think we're in the clear.

All I can do is take him at his word and move forward with a little more peace of mind. Even if it's a little, I'll take it.

 

[scaledverts]

Just got my shipment this morning. The rodents are all fresh with no freezer burn on them. However, reading one of the earlier articles that quoted a July 11th quarantine lift date is somewhat concerning. There has not been enough time for them to be generating large adult mice and selling them (which I alone got 200 of them). This tells me they are certainly outsourcing some of their orders.

Everyone keeps saying that RP has done a good job considering the loss of their stock. I COULD NOT disagree more! As a customer, my concern is not the potential financial hardships the business is experiencing. If it is that hard, don't sell rodents. If you do choose to sell rodents, you have a responsibility, in my opinion, to tell your customers about the problem. Not doing so and then it coming out later (as it is know) actually probably reflects WORSE on RP than just being open from the start. All it would take is a simple notice posted on their website detailing the problems they are/were experiencing. Even when they did not have L adult mice their website said it was because of high demands for that size...no mention of the fact that they didn't exist because of the entire facility being compromised.

Finally, one of the quotes out of the article is concerning to me.

“When we went back for an inspection, we found 12 mice running loose,” she said. “I remember the manager telling me that they couldn’t get every mouse. I said you have no other choice. The feces, the litter, they are contaminating the facility. We advised them to poison the water and that seemed to remedy the situation. We lifted the quarantine on July 11.”

...We know you said ALL rodents but it's REALLY hard...

They HAVE to have seen this thread by now. The cat is out of the bag RP, time to come forward and start releasing information. I for one am VERY unhappy that I ordered rodents from you and you made no mention of the issues you were experiencing!

 

[Wraith]

This virus (a type of aseptic meningitis) is spread by direct contact or inhaling aerosolized particles of the virus from FRESH rodent urine, feces, saliva or by eating food contaminated with the virus or by exposing open cuts/wounds to the virus. The cross-contam seems to only be from infected carrier mice/hamsters to humans. Rats do not seem to be able to be carriers and according to the article posted earlier - only a small percentage of the mice tested positive and none of the rats tested positive.

It would seem that those contacted by health dept/CDC folks are those who purchased live mice - not frozen mice ???

So I would think from the standpoint of those who are RP customers - most hobbyists are buying frozen feeders from them rather than live. Therefore the average customer is not being exposed to fresh contaminants. The only people that seemed to have become sick are some of the staff at RP who obviously are in direct hyper-contact with fresh contaminants on a daily basis. So unless you, the average hobbyist, is sniffing the fur for lingering bedding dust of your frozen mice, licking your frozen mice, eating your frozen mice, rubbing your frozen mice all over any open wounds, or attempting to taste/eat any possible bedding material that might have made it into the bags with the frozen mice, then the chance for you to become infected is not very likely. Unless you are experiencing or beginning to experience symptoms of meningitis, then you should be fine.

This is not a common disease despite the fact that at 5% of the mouse population are carriers. If this illness was so "easy" to catch, then thousands would catch it every year simply because wild mice do get into people's houses, garages, sheds, etc. and people to keep pet mice/hamsters as pets. The quarantine was likely done as a precaution until the health officials got their ducks in a row as they boned up on the illness and figure out how to go about proceeding in light of this "outbreak" occurring at a rodent breeding facility. The fact that very little public info is out there about the "outbreak" and that the CDC has not issued any obvious public warnings means that the chance of this being an actual "issue" is probably non-existent. It is likely they determined that those who purchased mice did not get sick or are not at risk of getting sick and that the quarantine/clean up procedures initiated satisfied all that needed to be done to deal with the issue.

And if the statement made by it is true

As for the time frame, Rodent Pro and Mouse House both were placed under quarantine, they did so in reaction to this event not proactivly on a scheduld. There may never be a solid start time to this event.

Why is it only RP being slammed - why not the other facility mentioned above? Why not just slam all rodent breeders across the country and be done with it. It is known that 5% of the mouse population in this country are potential carriers. Whose to say that any rodent breeding facility is "clean"?

 

[WebSlave]

Seriously, does anyone here think that working with ANY live animals in any way shape or form does NOT expose you to zoonotic organisms?

http://www.petdoc.ws/zoonotic_diseases.htm

http://www.doh.state.fl.us/environment/medicine/arboviral/Zoonoses/Rodent_Zoonoses.html

http://www.exoticpetvet.net/reptile/zoonoses.html

Unless the rodent breeders have absolutely sterile laboratory quality environments hermetically sealed to the outside and they started with absolutely pathogen free stock (which would be pretty nearly impossible to do), and YOU wear protective gear while coming in contact with not only the feeder rodents but the animals you are feeding them to, then I'm sorry to say that you are deluding yourself about not being at risk of contacting zoonotic organisms.

Heck, I used to wash my hands CONSTANTLY when working with my animals, but I still had to breath the air. But heck I lived through it, so I guess I did OK, but who the heck knows if I may have contracted latent virus or bacterial organisms? What about parasites? Yes, humans can become part of that cycle if you aren't VERY careful. I had often seen the people working for me think nothing of cleaning snake cages for hours, and then not wash their hands before they picked up their sandwich for lunch and started eating it. After constantly bringing this to their attention, to no avail, I finally just wrote up a contract disclaimer concerning immunity against any health issues they may suffer as a result of being on my property and as a condition of their working for me. You just can't fight stupid sometimes.

I'm not trying to belittle this circumstance with Rodent Pro, but I think at the very least that everyone needs to take a long hard look at their own hygiene habits when working with their animals. You ARE at risk with every exposure. It is up to YOU to take whatever steps you feel are prudent and logical to try to limit YOUR own risk in that kind of an environment.

So please don't be under the assumption that by getting rodents from any other supplier is going to make you any less potentially exposed to pathogens carried by those rodents. Seriously, if you have someone in your family in your home that has a compromised immune system or other serious health issues, and you have animals in that environment as well, then I think you really aren't looking at the big picture here. What exactly IS more important to you?

 

[Inret]

Most of the people that post here know all about being exposed to zoonotics, the problem is that they didn't tell anyone for months and this is a pretty serious one. It's a trust issue and if you can't trust your rodent producers to tell you that something is up then why deal with them?

I'm pretty sure immune deficient people are allowed to have whatever pets they want too. If they know the risks and they want to keep them, that's their business. It's Rodentpro's business to tell all of us about an encephalitic virus in the stock customers ordered and they failed miserably.

 

[rjjp]

seems to me that in this day and age that any buisness would err on the side of caution than not.. it is way to easy to hire James Solcolove(sp) and get a class action siut going.. kinda disappointed in the handling of it.. that would be the only reason I wouldnt order from them again.

 

[Lucille]

You ARE at risk with every exposure. It is up to YOU to take whatever steps you feel are prudent and logical to try to limit YOUR own risk in that kind of an environment.

There is no question but that a buyer needs to be careful and take precautions to protect against risk. That does not cancel, in my opinion, the responsibility of the seller to disclose information about an incident of this nature.

 

[WebSlave]

Seriously, if any of you selling animals or animal products to the public do not have a disclaimer of immunity for liability for pathogens being inadvertently transmitted via those animals or materials, you really should think about doing that. No matter how conscientious you are and no matter what steps you take to try to reduce that likelihood, there will ALWAYS be a possibility. You can either recognize it and deal with it as best you can up front, or just hope that you dodge that bullet all throughout your business life dealing with this stuff.

Pick up a book on zoonotic organisms some day and see how far you get through it before you break into a cold sweat.

 

[Snake-Queen]

Seriously, if any of you selling animals or animal products to the public do not have a disclaimer of immunity for liability for pathogens being inadvertently transmitted via those animals or materials, you really should think about doing that. No matter how conscientious you are and no matter what steps you take to try to reduce that likelihood, there will ALWAYS be a possibility. You can either recognize it and deal with it as best you can up front, or just hope that you dodge that bullet all throughout your business life dealing with this stuff.

Pick up a book on zoonotic organisms some day and see how far you get through it before you break into a cold sweat.

Reading the list from one of the links you provided was scary enough.

I am not concerned about this issue, as my rats are frozen ... I wash my hands after handling the rodents & use sanitizer ... the live mice I have to use for my ETBs I breed.

I've never had an issue with RP, so I am comfortable with continuing my business with them.

 

[WebSlave]

There is no question but that a buyer needs to be careful and take precautions to protect against risk. That does not cancel, in my opinion, the responsibility of the seller to disclose information about an incident of this nature.

Oh, I agree in cases where a known SERIOUS pathogen has been identified, it would be ethical and consistent of good business practices to contact any customers who could possibly be affected.

My concern is that it appears that some people here seem to not realize that EVERY animal is going to have pathogens associated with it, some rather serious depending on a number of factors concerning the persons themselves exposed to such pathogens. If you practice practical and prudent safeguards concerning your own health and safety and the prevention of the spread of such pathogens, then you already doing all you feasibly can about this issue. If you feel the level of safeguards necessary for complete isolation and prevention of pathogens from animals and animal products you choose to bring into your local environment are more than you are realistically willing to bear, well, the possibility does exist that having live animals around you is really not your cup of tea.