Bad Guy Avangel Geckos

[bmr1052]

Name the other person so he is not anonymous please.




He is answering everything put to him here.

I honestly have no clue who it was, Chaz erased all the comments that were pertinent to the topic. Of course he is answering here. Its easy to just tell one guy on youtube to go pound sand but when the issue gets exposure, its time to answer.

 

[Lucille]

I honestly have no clue who it was, Chaz erased all the comments that were pertinent to the topic. Of course he is answering here. Its easy to just tell one guy on youtube to go pound sand but when the issue gets exposure, its time to answer.

Brian, you started a bad guy thread calling this guy out for intentional misrepresentation. I'm seeing him answer every question.
I am not a gecko person so don't know gecko genetics, but I don't see scammer behavior here.
If people differ on the question of genetics, that is certainly different than a misrepresentation.

 

[Lucille]

I just sent a note to ReptilesByMack telling them that I'd be honored by their presence

 

[Paul Kent]

So you buy a hanes shirt, add your design on front, and according to your logic, it ceases to be a hanes shirt?

The point I tried to make in my email to you was similar to your example... Why not just say they are mack snows that we put our pride and effort into to make the highest quality leo we could, and they are superior in quality to others on the market.

I think thats my point also. What you accomplished in creating your snows (as awesome as it is) doesnt really eliminate the fact that the snow part of the equation is still Mack snow.

And then when you refer (directly or indirectly) to them as "line-bred" snows it just confuses people even more.

 

[bmr1052]

Brian, you started a bad guy thread calling this guy out for intentional misrepresentation. I'm seeing him answer every question.
I am not a gecko person so don't know gecko genetics, but I don't see scammer behavior here.
If people differ on the question of genetics, that is certainly different than a misrepresentation.

Well I never said he was a scammer, however , gecko person or not It is not hard to read the comments here from everyone and see that there may be an issue with this. I have no clue what type of animals you keep. Do you think If you went to an expo or online and purchased an animal that was labeled to have the genetic of XYZ and you thought it would be good to add to your collection and you purchase the animal, then 2 years or so later breed it and find out that it isnt XYZ but it is in fact 123. how would you feel about that?

 

[Paul Kent]

Brian, you started a bad guy thread calling this guy out for intentional misrepresentation. I'm seeing him answer every question.
I am not a gecko person so don't know gecko genetics, but I don't see scammer behavior here.
If people differ on the question of genetics, that is certainly different than a misrepresentation.

I dont think its intentional misrepresentation more than a difference in opinion on what is or isnt worthy of be called someone personal line

 

[bmr1052]

Before I came across his video, if a friend of mine said to me " look at what I bought at the pomona expo, it an Avangel snow " I would honestly have no clue what it was. Can it create supers? is it line bred? who knows. The customer would certainly be misinformed because chaz himself seems to not give a clear description of what its genetics are.

 

[Pasodama]

No matter the line breeding for choice colors or features, at the end of the day the genetics are what I started with.

This is true.
Although, in the Leo community, there are geckos that were/are selectively bred to look one way or another. Once that look is, or has been, achieved (whatever the breeder's goal is/was), it is not unknown for those Leo's to be known as that breeder's line of ______ (morph).
For now, It does appear that Chaz is working on his own selectively bred line. Although, initially, he did not seem to explain it very well.

 

[Lucille]

Before I came across his video, if a friend of mine said to me " look at what I bought at the pomona expo, it an Avangel snow " I would honestly have no clue what it was. Can it create supers? is it line bred? who knows. The customer would certainly be misinformed because chaz himself seems to not give a clear description of what its genetics are.

Brian, are you saying there was or was not a sale? If there was no sale to you or your friends then you are reaching here. This person IS ANSWERING EVERY QUESTION.
If the critter is still under development and not being sold exactly what is your beef?

Running around claiming the sky is falling isn't going to get it.

 

[bmr1052]

This is true.
Although, in the Leo community, there are geckos that were/are selectively bred to look one way or another. Once that look is, or has been, achieved (whatever the breeder's goal is/was), it is not unknown for those Leo's to be known as that breeder's line of ______ (morph).
For now, It does appear that Chaz is working on his own selectively bred line. Although, initially, he did not seem to explain it very well.

Exactly, however, when I suggested this may be the case to chaz, he refused to discuss it any further. In business if you make claims and people ask about them, it isn't good business practice to say Im done talking about this good bye.

 

[bmr1052]

Brian, are you saying there was or was not a sale? If there was no sale to you or your friends then you are reaching here. This person IS ANSWERING EVERY QUESTION.
If the critter is still under development and not being sold exactly what is your beef?

Running around claiming the sky is falling isn't going to get it.

The animal in question was not for sale, it was a video describing his project. He says there are crosses of it available. My initial contact was to inquire if it was a new line as he states it is. Over all these years there has only been 4 types of snows ( mack, tug, gem, line bred ) and now I see a person claiming a new line. Wouldn't you be intrigued? Like I said before I deal in snow in most of my projects so of course I would be interested.

But it is clear, by Chaz himself, that he fulling intends to sell this as a new line, read his email on page one. Do we really need to wait til someone buys one, cant prove it out or something like that to make a complaint?

I get the distinct feeling you might be friends with Chaz, which is perfectly fine. All i ask is if you want to debate the issue please look at the facts and be fair.

 

[Paul Kent]

seems to not give a clear description of what its genetics are.

I think there are a LOT of people who would be suprised to find out that his line of snows started with a Mack snow. From everything Ive read (which has been a ton in the last year) the common thought is that these are just line bred snows (outside of Mack or Gem snows).

I dont believe thats intentional. But I do think that in the attempt to put his own name on his work (which in theory is completely fine BTW) he created a lot of confusion on what the genetics actually are. It would be the same as if I spent years creating a brighter albino, I think if I called it a Kent Albino the inference would be a new strain of albino.

 

[bmr1052]

Thats a good example Paul, but let me ask you this. If someone came to you and said boy those Kent albinos sure are nice, what strain are they? How would you answer? better yet, what would the appropriate answer be? I currently working with super snow albinos, no biggie there, but I am trying to produce leos that even when mature, have almost Zero contrast between the sides and spots. Has it been done before? who knows. I will probably come up with a cool name for it as well. But in the end when I am asked about its genetics, I will respond with Super Mack snow Tremper albino.

 

[Lucille]

I get the distinct feeling you might be friends with Chaz

First you try to saddle Chaz with intentional misrepresentation. I've been as fair as I know how, point out that while there may be genetics questions, if there is any question about being a new line or a refinement of an existing line, he does not seem to be intentionally misrepresenting, because he is answering every question asked of him.

I do not know Chaz at all, have no dog in this fight. I simply do not agree that his description was any kind of intentional misrepresentation and do not like to see a new breeder shot down when he might be entirely OK with changing how he describes his critter.

 

[bmr1052]

First you try to saddle Chaz with intentional misrepresentation. I've been as fair as I know how, point out that while there may be genetics questions, if there is any question about being a new line or a refinement of an existing line, he does not seem to be intentionally misrepresenting, because he is answering every question asked of him.

I do not know Chaz at all, have no dog in this fight. I simply do not agree that his description was any kind of intentional misrepresentation and do not like to see a new breeder shot down when he might be entirely OK with changing how he describes his critter.

That is fair, and all I asked was for you to be fair. I appreciate your being honest. But I need to ask you. Have you read all of the comments posted here? I understand you dont work with leos, but its pretty hard to not see his misrepresentation ( whether intentional or not ). I am by no means an expert on genes. I dont claim to be. i have been wrong about things in the past. If I was misinformed and corrected then I am a better keeper and person for it. Even though you keep bringing up that Chaz is willfully replying here, has he really made my statements to be false? has he not repeatedly said he uses mack snow? Has he not said it is genetically different from mack snow? again please reference the email. Whether intentional or not, I dont see how you can say there is no misrepresentation here.

 

[Lucille]

Whether intentional or not, I dont see how you can say there is no misrepresentation here.

My very first post in this thread was to insist that genetics are important. If he is describing his critter in a way you feel might misrepresent it, why not ask him here if he will work with you or other experienced gecko people to create an appropriate description?

If he answers all your questions and is willing to work with his peers to create an appropriate description, I just can't see him as a bad guy.

Maybe if you and some of the others with expertise start a thread in the discussion forums or invite him into chat, everyone can end up satisfied

 

[Paul Kent]

If he answers all your questions and is willing to work with his peers to create an appropriate description, I just can't see him as a bad guy.

 

[bmr1052]

My very first post in this thread was to insist that genetics are important. If he is describing his critter in a way you feel might misrepresent it, why not ask him here if he will work with you or other experienced gecko people to create an appropriate description?

If he answers all your questions and is willing to work with his peers to create an appropriate description, I just can't see him as a bad guy.

Maybe if you and some of the others with expertise start a thread in the discussion forums or invite him into chat, everyone can end up satisfied

That sounds fine and good, but I suggested that to him in a private message on Youtube, regarding maybe its mislabeled and might he actually mean mack snow he bred to his liking....To which he said flat out no

This thread should have never existed, but Chaz was unwilling to discuss it privately. As you can see on the email I posted he stated he was no longer willing to explain the issue any further.

Personally I bet chaz is a great guy. He has awesome animals that much is certain. Another main reason I even inquired to his new line is I am local to him. Its is always good to have local contacts in the business to help with issues or even purchase from in the future. It just seemed that Chaz had an issue with being questioned. He immediately shut off all communications when I pointed out his creation may in fact just be a mack snow.

Had I been rude, disrespectful or anything like that then maybe I could see his point, but when You are asked a simple question then essentially hide from answering it it doesnt look good. It looks like you are hiding something.
And the the response of he doesnt have to explain anything to anyone, idnt very valid when you portray yourself as a company and sell to the public.

 

[Pasodama]

There are breeding projects, with many reptile species, that breeders wish to keep under wraps. Along this line, I can understand if Chaz did not wish to disclose everything but he should have clearly stated this, and the reason why, in the whole beginning.

Once the project animals are available for sale, then, yes, I agree in that the genetics should be disclosed (although The "Ray Hine Leo" does have me scratching my head).

At this point in time, if they are not being sold without disclosure, I would not label Chaz as a "Bad Guy".

 

[Avangel Reptiles]

Someone asked about what the Ray Hine is. Yes Ray hine is two things. It is the person that created the morph as well as the morph itself. It is called a Ray Hine Dominant Hypo.

I'll just post the pictures.

This one comes from avangel line snow x avangel line snow/blood cross