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Bad Guy Avangel Geckos

I don't understand how someones business ethics can be questioned for an animal that wasn't even up for sale. It appears to me the only misrepresentation that occurred was the reason given for starting this thread.

Dave Bailey
 
I don't understand how someones business ethics can be questioned for an animal that wasn't even up for sale. It appears to me the only misrepresentation that occurred was the reason given for starting this thread.

Dave Bailey

Did you read all the comments? The attached email? While the exact animal that started the correspondence with chaz is not for sale, he stats sthere are offspring crosses that are, and that it is his intent to sell them.

Why is important to wait till someone actually is defrauded to make an BOI post?
I felt that his representation, coupled with his handling of the situation made the thread necessary. Read the top banner here:

Board of Inquiry® This forum is provided exclusively for the discussion of specific persons or businesses in the herp industry. YOUR FULL NAME is required for each message you post.


Im doing just that.
 
Because they don't look like Mack Snows anymnore...obviously, so why call them Mack snows? He bred the line silly. Thats how new lines start. Maybe a few years down the orad when we see these bad boys all over, you will bite your words eh?

I am unsure of where you were heading with that statement but let me give you an example.

A sunglow (hypo albino) looks completely different from a regular albino yet the albino part is still either kahl, sharp or a form of t+.

I posted a few pics on page 6. The ray hine gene is still a weird gene, but what I believe from what I have noticed about the genes is that when they combined, because they were two different co/dominant genes that instead of getting the natural cross effect like a snow enigma, they instead fused, in trying to fight for domination. I know it does not kind of make since but it is what I noticed. The combined morph is what effects other genes when the snow does not hit, versus when they are originally separate genes.

Someone asked if I had an original ray hine. I actually still have her. She has no hets at all, she is pure and original.

The reason why most do not know what the ray hine hypo is, is because they did not get their chance to shine for long. Which is why I did not disclose the ray hine gene before because most do not understand it, or what it can do
.

This logic makes no sense to me. If you feel the ray Hines gene is really boosting your projects why didn't you yell it from the roof tops? Since they are so rare you could have greatly increased the worth of your animals.

The genetics are the issue. He is still claiming that this somehow his 2 co dom genes have fused and that they are not simply mack snows. While I agree it is not only a mack snow ( as there are numerous mack snow combos out there ) I do believe that there is no new line of genetics in play here. It is very easy to say " well I have a special gecko no one else has and it is genetically different from anything out there, but how would one back up this claim.

As chaz stated, I claim there are only 4 snow morphs. What I mean by that is to date, there are 4 types of distinguished snow lines. That are genetically separated from each other.

If Chaz claims he has a new line, Then that is a very significant statement, and he can not stonewall people who are questioning as to its genes. When you put out youtube videos, facebook pictures or any other public information making such claims, you can not expect people to just take his word it is new. There will be questions and there will be inquiries. How he handled my questions was uncalled for. He made assumptions that I came " with loaded guns" and that I was " there to attack his line" when I had no clue who he was or what he was about. I dont know how after my 2 youtube comments he could come to such a conclusion of my intent.

Hey Brian. Just so you know it has happened in the boa world. Those would be called the black eyed anerys.
 
I think my only problem with the idea that the 2 genes have somehow fused is that, according to him, sometimes the snow hits (with the Hine gene) and sometimes it doesnt (producing xanthics, etc). If they had indeed fused, then you would either have both or nothing. Especially considering we're talking about a codom and a dominant.
 
Also, take the RAPTOR morph. They were a combonation of different morphs, recessive and dominant and they all fused together to make a new morph. Yet now when you breed a raptor to a normal or to another gecko with a gene that was an original part of a RAPTOR you dont/cant get all those different genes back. If that makes sense.

bmr1052, I dont think you realize all the possiblities genetics allow for, its not just black and white, sometimes weird things can happen. And attacking a person who has taken years to create what they call their own "line" of something and posting an unwarranted bad guy thread about them seems extreme. This person didnt swendle you or lie to you or sell you a defective gecko, they just didnt want to tell you everything because you werent interested in buying...just berating his work. Go to NERD or other large python or gecko breeder and tell them to tell you all the genes in some of their projects, they would laugh you out of the building. This person even stated they would release breeding/genetic information to customers who bought their geckos and I am sure they would be able to tell that person what lines of snow or other genes it would be compatable with or not.
 
Also, take the RAPTOR morph. They were a combonation of different morphs, recessive and dominant and they all fused together to make a new morph. Yet now when you breed a raptor to a normal or to another gecko with a gene that was an original part of a RAPTOR you dont/cant get all those different genes back. If that makes sense.

bmr1052, I dont think you realize all the possiblities genetics allow for, its not just black and white, sometimes weird things can happen. And attacking a person who has taken years to create what they call their own "line" of something and posting an unwarranted bad guy thread about them seems extreme. This person didnt swendle you or lie to you or sell you a defective gecko, they just didnt want to tell you everything because you werent interested in buying...just berating his work. Go to NERD or other large python or gecko breeder and tell them to tell you all the genes in some of their projects, they would laugh you out of the building. This person even stated they would release breeding/genetic information to customers who bought their geckos and I am sure they would be able to tell that person what lines of snow or other genes it would be compatable with or not.that's

That's fair. But Chaz stated I asked the genetic breakdown of his geckos, and I did not. I merely asked if it was his own line and if so how does someone create a new line? He responded that he used and existing line...... And my responce was only then doesn't it have the base gene of the original line? I can't understand how chaz knew I wasnt a buyer based off 2 YouTube comments. but I will say it again. If someone is portraying to have a new line you can't expect people to not ask about it. For all we know there may have been many people questioning about it. I know for a fact there was one other person, but as chaz has admitted here, he erased all comments he didn't feel were positive.
 
Also, take the RAPTOR morph. They were a combonation of different morphs, recessive and dominant and they all fused together to make a new morph. Yet now when you breed a raptor to a normal or to another gecko with a gene that was an original part of a RAPTOR you dont/cant get all those different genes back. If that makes sense.


Clearly thing can fuse. But Chaz has already stated that they can be expressed separately. i.e. "when the snow hits "x" happens. When it doesnt "y" happens. Meaning the snow is clearly separate from the Hine.
 
People who are interested in buying his geckos for their own purposes of breeding will ask those questions and if he answers in a way they can understand, they will buy them and they wont be mislead because they will understand the genes involved and how they react with other genes or his understanding of thier genetics is incorrect/incomplete and people will not buy from him. People who are just buying for an extra pretty pet, probably couldn't care less about those things. He wasnt required to tell everything about his genetics.
 
People who are interested in buying his geckos for their own purposes of breeding will ask those questions and if he answers in a way they can understand, they will buy them and they wont be mislead because they will undertand the genes involved and how they react with other genes or his understanding of thier genetics is incorrect/incomplete and people will not buy from him. People who are just buying for an extra pretty pet, probably couldn't care less about those things. He wasnt required to tell everything about his genetics.

I have no idea what types of animals you keep, but I'm guessing it might be boas. If you were looking for a new addition to your.collection ( as I was, on his facebook). And you came across someone claiming to have a new genetically different animal, I highly doubt you make a purchase without asking about it. If you say you would then you are not being truthful. You are right chaz would be forthcoming to people who buy the animal. However the info he would be giving would be false. Plain and simple it is not a new line of snow as he has stated. And to tell customers it is would be false.
 
Clearly thing can fuse. But Chaz has already stated that they can be expressed separately. i.e. "when the snow hits "x" happens. When it doesnt "y" happens. Meaning the snow is clearly separate from the Hine.


Very true, but there are examples of 'hets' even though not fully expressing still altering the look of an animal. I realize those are recessive morphs but his co-dominant genes could still work like that possibly. But from what he has posted, it seems he has a long way to go to fully understand everything going on with his geckos or just hasnt explained well. Maybe its just a new combo, that is just seprate parts put together or it could possibly be fused combos that has created a new line. More breeding and out crossing on his part can be done to ensure he is correctly labeling his animals.
 
Very true, but there are examples of 'hets' even though not fully expressing still altering the look of an animal. I realize those are recessive morphs but his co-dominant genes could still work like that possibly. .

As a former boa guy I know where your going with that (hypos in a boa). But that doesnt work quite the same a Mack snow. Those are HIGHLY variable and you can miss them fairly easily if its a very low expression, etc. Mack snows are pretty clearly mack snows from birth. And while slightly variable here and there you'd be hard pressed to have one and not know it. Especially if you produced it.
 
Very true, but there are examples of 'hets' even though not fully expressing still altering the look of an animal. I realize those are recessive morphs but his co-dominant genes could still work like that possibly. But from what he has posted, it seems he has a long way to go to fully understand everything going on with his geckos or just hasnt explained well. Maybe its just a new combo, that is just seprate parts put together or it could possibly be fused combos that has created a new line. More breeding and out crossing on his part can be done to ensure he is correctly labeling his animals.

It seems a lot of your points you are making are based on hypothetical situations (could still, possibly, maybe, etc..) There is cut and dry statements from chaz and there is basic biology here. I did not fabricate a single statement here, I only posted facts of the situation.
 
I think my only problem with the idea that the 2 genes have somehow fused is that, according to him, sometimes the snow hits (with the Hine gene) and sometimes it doesnt (producing xanthics, etc). If they had indeed fused, then you would either have both or nothing. Especially considering we're talking about a codom and a dominant.

This is the one thing that is bothering me now. The genes do not fuse together. They can share the same locus, they can interact with one another, there is the possibility of ~one~ gene mutating, etc., etc. but .... two genes fusing together? Big question mark there.
 
Come to think of it, unless something else turns up, I believe that, while I am sure I will follow it, I may back out of this thread now.
This thread is about Chaz's alleged "Bad Guy" status and, thus far, I do not see that he has done anything wrong (to merit that).
Clearly, there are some misunderstandings, and there is some confusion, but, since my only issue, now, is with genetics ... the discussion would belong elsewhere.
 
I would like you all to understand that I know genetics very well. I have been doing trial and error for a long time with morphs and genetics.

Someone asked about why if the Ray Hine was so awesome then why did I not shout it from the top of my lungs. There are so many people that does not know or even understand the gene itself. Like I stated awhile back, I had to ask Steve Sykes about it, which he kindly explained to me. The gene itself is still in the process of being tested. There are a few threads out there where people have done testings with the geckos. I want to fully get everything understood about that morph before I "shout" as you say.

Also someone stated about the albinos, and line breeding it to call it another name. Kind of a bad example because for the sake of "not" crossing albino together is where the problem could start. I still call my line the "snow" Just like calling a Blood Tremper Albino, just that. A line can always be created, a morph has to be discovered.

It is so hard to really explain the ray hine gene when most do not understand what is happening.

I am going to do the best to explain what I can so most could understand.

RH x Normal = RH or Normal ( normal being that of the actual numbers you see. ) In some cases, when the RH does not hit, the normal's background will become lighter.

The fact that I combined the genes and line bred them over time sort of unlocked a reaction to all other morphs, when I combine it with another morph. The RH does not do the same thing as the AS. What I have done with two genes that were never brought together was unlock something completely new. "Not a morph" just my line. It is my work, which makes it my line. I would not claim taking the mack snow "morph" and saying it is mine, but what I will do is take a morph, and specify it to become my line. So when people do ask where does my line originate from, I will gladly say "Mack Snow Morph."

I am trying to think of the best example as to what happens when the snow line does not hit. It is as if it still leaves a trace of itself behind no matter what. (Granted, when I sale a cross between my line snow and something else, I always say a cross. I would not call it a snow, but its affects does not come from a mack snow, it comes from the generations of me line breeding to create my line snow.)

If you think of the blizzard trait. When a gecko is het for blizzard, the gecko usually has speckles on it, but some do and some do not. The same goes with the blizzard hypos. Do you realized that because of all the line breeding that breeder did, whenever they do breed that gecko that is what comes of it. The sunset blizzard is reproducible. If the 3 other snows were called something else and not snows guess what. Would I be so called "misrepresenting?" No, but I am not going to say Avangel Mack Snow, I am saying Avangel Snow.

I hope that makes since.
 
A line can always be created, a morph has to be discovered.

What I have done with two genes that were never brought together was unlock something completely new. "Not a morph" just my line. It is my work, which makes it my line. I would not claim taking the mack snow "morph" and saying it is mine, but what I will do is take a morph, and specify it to become my line. So when people do ask where does my line originate from, I will gladly say "Mack Snow Morph."


That pretty much ends the thread. This was never anything more than a mis-communication and did not warrant a bad guy thread. If anything it has bolstered the credibility of the Avangel line.
 
The fact that I combined the genes and line bred them over time sort of unlocked a reaction to all other morphs, when I combine it with another morph. The RH does not do the same thing as the AS. What I have done with two genes that were never brought together was unlock something completely new. "Not a morph" just my line. It is my work, which makes it my line. I would not claim taking the mack snow "morph" and saying it is mine, but what I will do is take a morph, and specify it to become my line. So when people do ask where does my line originate from, I will gladly say "Mack Snow Morph."




I hope that makes since.


Chaz, This is a completely acceptable explanation. However, when you and I had our private conversation on youtube, I suggested to you that this might be the case to which you objected. Please refer to page one of this thread and read your own email in your own words. You stated it was not a mack snow you took and made to your liking, how is that any different from, " but what I will do is take a morph, and specify it to become my line" My whole issue was you were denying that this was mack snow genetics, you insisted that its genetics were Avangel snow. I accept your new explanation and based on the description I do not think you are a bad guy.. But I want to point out that this was not entirely about the supposed genetics mix up, it was also how you conducted yourself unprofessionally. You dont tell people who are potential customers to go pound sand just because they have questions. I state again I wasnt rude, disrespectful or whatever else might have warranted your reaction to me.
 
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