Good Guy Underground Reptiles

[turtleguy]

My order of flying geckos were delivered to the wrong address which i guess is a Fedex problem but underground reptiles never replied to even say sorry.However they were still alive when the homeowners brought them to me.NICE!

 

[reticguy76]

If there is any contact with you and the monitor, just disinfect yourself and/or handle animals already in your collection first then check in and handle the monitor last.

My post wasnt necessarily directed at you persay, it was more along the lines of a general statement

 

[mikeyv1230]

Water Monitor

Do you think there would be any concern if i were to have my blood in my lap while I watched t.v. with the water monitor's terrarium in the same room? I guess what I am asking is a respiratory infection an airborne illness? I've been told it is relatively easy to transmit, but i've been wrong wrong before

 

[ronritzer]

I got three great frogs from them that are all doing well and four baby Crested Geckos that are awesome. One of the hatchlings is a little smaller and seem to be having trouble with sheds and doesnt seem to eat. I'm trying my best to bring it around, but it just seems like the little guy got a bad lot in life, no fault of underground. The other three are great.
I plan on ordering several Leopard Geckos from them when I get everything set up.

 

[ronritzer]

Well, the baby Crested Gecko passed away. It was looking pretty dehyrdrated depsite keeping up with misting, providing a water dish and offering food regularly. It failed to thrive for whatever reason. The animal was a very small hatchling when I received it about a month ago, and never grew at all.
At this point I dont know what to think at all. One thought I have was that perhaps they should have let the gecko get a bit more established before selling and shipping it.
Between this and the crushed frog incident, I'm not going to buy from them any more.

 

[UndergroundReptiles]

This is the email I received from Ron up on receiving the crested geckos.

From: Ronald Ritzer [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 2:12 AM
To: Underground Reptiles
Subject: awesome

The Crested Geckos are awesome. The local pet stores sell these guys for around $60 and they don't look nearly this amazing!
Also, my brown pacman, ornate horned and african bullfrog are all doing amazingly well and have more than doubled in size since I got them. The Ornate is also awesome.
I plan on ordering a secodn Ornate when you get some in and I'm hoping for an individual that is possibly a darker green or perhaps one with more red. My heated rack system also has a few empty slots ion it so I've been considering some Leopard Geckos to complete my herp collection. Looking at the Blizzard and the Pinstripe varieties.
Anyway, thanks guys!
Ron.

This is the first email I received from Ron stating any problem with the gecko and I responded promptly.



I keep them in small 6qt plastic boxes with screen tops, with paper towel, a hide, fake plant vine and food and water. I spray at night and in the morning. I keep Repashy CGD in all the time and change it every 36 hours as recommended and also feed dubia roach nymphs.
All three of the other ones I received are growing and healthy in appearance and also eat.
The smaller one that was having problems passed away sometime in the night unfortunatly.
When my girlfriend gets home I will have her take a picture of the enclosures
________________________________________
From: Underground Reptiles <[email protected]>
To: 'Ronald Ritzer' <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 10:38 AM
Subject: RE: crested geckos/ sick gecko

How are you keeping them? Send me some pictures? What are you offering in the way of food?

--
Ryan B.
Underground Reptiles
Phone: 954-428-8005
Web: http://undergroundreptiles.com


From: Ronald Ritzer [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:58 AM
To: Underground Reptiles
Subject: Re: crested geckos/ sick gecko


Ryan,
While three of the Geckos you sent me are doing great, one of them has not eaten since being received and has been on a steady decline since. The other three eat readily and have grown, but this one is the same size as the day I got him. In the last day I noticed that he is appearing thin and spends most of his time laying on the floor of his critter keeper looking "downed." Is their anything I can do for this gecko? He seems weaker and weaker every time I look at the poor little guy and I'm just not sure what I can do, if anything.
Any imput would help, thanks.!
Ronald Ritzer

He showed me one 6 quart tub which I suspect all the animals were kept in although he did say he kept them all seperate. I assumed this because he did not send me pictures of the other habitats. Also judging by the picture of the animal that was sent it was severely dehydrated and stuck in dry shed. Mr. Ritzer waited for over a month to voice any concern or seek help with the animal. All of our rhacodactylus are bred in house and kept for at least three weeks before they are offered up for sale. Mr. Ritzer's claim that the animal was too young or that this is somehow our fault is just silly.

 

[UndergroundReptiles]

Sorry I forgot the signature.

Ryan Borkan

 

[ronritzer]

The notion that the animals were too young when sent out was a thought, or a concern of mine. Im glad you clarified otherwise, but it was a question on my mind due to the overall small size of the animal when I received. It was considerably smaller then all the others.
Your suspicions that Im keeping all of the Geckos in a single 6 quart container are unfounded. I sent you a picture of what you asked for, the enclosure that the animal in question was kept in. You are the one that assumed I was keeping them as a group. I would not keep juvenile Crested Geckos in a group. It should have been pretty clear that the enclosure I showed DIDNT have any other geckos in it, since it had its top off and the food and water containers had already been removed.

The animal was rather small when I received it. It never ate from the day I received it. It had trouble shedding from the very first time it shed, which was within the first week I got it. My immediate response was to adjust the humidity in the enclosure and to add a moist hide for the gecko. The gecko still had trouble shedding and began to show signs of dehydration when my girlfriend and I had photographed them. I continued with the misting and attempted to entice the gecko into eating by adding a very small drop of honey to the CGD and adding a bit of banana. About a week ago I had purchased a bottle of pedialyte and added it to the water dish and to the misting bottle in an attempt to rehydrate the gecko and give it a boost in hopes it would begin eating.
In no way was the gecko ever exposed to excessive heat, temperatures were kept in the mid to high 70's at all times. The humidity was maintained with regular misting, water in a dish, and a deli cup with moistened paper towels in it. Considering this, I think there was an underlying health problem that had been going on before I received the Gecko.
Am I saying this is your fault? Not really. What Iam saying is that the Gecko had a health problem of some sort before I received it. It was smaller than the other geckos, considerably so, and the other Geckos have been doing well under the same conditions.

I do not think you would have knowingly sent me a sick Gecko Ryan. Perhaps it was already sick and the stress of shipping being placed in a new environment put it off of eating and its health quickly declined whereas a more healthy Gecko wouldnt have had a problem.
I'm not saying you are at fault here, or that you did anything wrong. What I'am saying is that my experience with buying animals from your company has been less than favorable to me, and I won't be buying from you again just based on my experiences.

To address why I waited so long to contact you, my reasons are several;
-I attributed the shedding problem to a humidity issue and added a moist hide and made sure to keep the humidity levels up.
-When I noticed the Gecko was looking thin, i consulted books and resources for information on getting a gecko to eat.
-I had read and been informed that newly shipped and rehoused Crest Geckos can go off of feeding for up to three weeks while adjusting.

After adding pedialyte to the water didnt help, and the gecko became even more emaciated and sick looking, I contacted you asking for advice. I wasn't blaming you, or asking for a refund or anything like that. I was asking for help as the person who bred the Gecko, and I knew you would get back to me quickly. Unfortunately, the Gecko died some time in the night between the time I sent you that first email and the before I woke up.

 

[ronritzer]

*help from the person that bred the gecko.

 

[ronritzer]

I also stated that the problem was the gecko was having shedding issues and not eating. It shouldnt have been a suprise when a photo of the Gecko confirmed this.

 

[ronritzer]

This is the response I got from Ryan after informing him that my gecko died, and sent pictures of the enclosure, the gecko while it was alive as well as the corpse.

"The pictures came through. This little guy certainly looked dehydrated, and from you what you said about his shedding issue the only thing I can figure is that it might have been getting too warm in his enclosure or the humidity levels stayed too low. Generally crested geckos are very resilient and its hard to lose them but on occasion some stay smaller, need more attention, or just don’t thrive as well as most. Very unusual though. I would definitely go back and evaluate the temps and humidty level. Also electrolytes in the form of pedialite can aid with shedding issues and dehydration. If using pedialite it can be mixed with water used in spraying or in the CGD. I also would keep a small dish of water in with the geckos at all times. Thank you."


Thank you he says.

 

[djfishygillz]

This is the response I got from Ryan after informing him that my gecko died, and sent pictures of the enclosure, the gecko while it was alive as well as the corpse.

"The pictures came through. This little guy certainly looked dehydrated, and from you what you said about his shedding issue the only thing I can figure is that it might have been getting too warm in his enclosure or the humidity levels stayed too low. Generally crested geckos are very resilient and its hard to lose them but on occasion some stay smaller, need more attention, or just don’t thrive as well as most. Very unusual though. I would definitely go back and evaluate the temps and humidty level. Also electrolytes in the form of pedialite can aid with shedding issues and dehydration. If using pedialite it can be mixed with water used in spraying or in the CGD. I also would keep a small dish of water in with the geckos at all times. Thank you."


Thank you he says.

If you did have the crested for over a month I think that is long enough that it is out of their hands and into yours. Did he give you a one month health guarantee? Also you didn't answer the question of whether or not you have separate habitats.

In my experience with cresties, I saw two at petco that weren't doing good and were very cheap. ( I know it is dumb to support petco sucking at care for reptiles). But they were much cheaper than people trying to sell them as high end morphs for 300 dollars. So I purchased them, and just gave them good humidity, crested gecko diet, gut loaded crickets and attention. They were housed separately and are now both super healthy and just about ready to breed.

By the time it was a month into having the gecko it is on you. If you don't like the looks of a gecko ask for a refund immediately, not keep the gecko and hope it gets better when you have it in a cage with bigger cresties that could be eating its food and stressing it out.

 

[ronritzer]

I never in a minute held any responsibility toward Underground Reptiles. I simply stated that its my impression that the animal had something wrong with it before I received it OR didnt recover from the stress of shipping and that, due to my experiences getting animals from Underground. In one month I've ordered 8 animals from them and currently have six. Even though they made good on the crushed frog incident, it doesnt change the fact that it happened, and it sucked. I guess my own common sense logic tells me not to buy from them again. Does that make sense?
I dont see how this could be anything I have done wrong, as the other three are thriving, each in their own enclosures. Ryan answered to my concern that sufficient time wasnt given to establish the animals before they were sold. I dont know how much growth they generally see after three weeks, but this animal was small.

I wasn't aware that the fact that I house them all separately was even a question. Here, I'll quote the email that Ryan posted. "I keep them in small 6qt plastic boxes with screen tops, with paper towel, a hide, fake plant vine and food and water....
When my girlfriend gets home I will have her take a picture of the enclosures." boxes, screen tops, enclosures, note that these are all plural forms. Ryan asked me for a picture of the enclosure the animal was kept in, and that is what I sent him. That he could conclude or suspect that I housed them all in that small enclosure simply because I didnt send photos of all four identical enclosures is not only silly, its offensive and it makes me feel angry. After reading that, I sent him a photo of the other three enclosures.

Im glad that you had a good experience with rehabilitating less than healthy geckos. It was Ryans response and advice in the above quoted email that angered me and brought me to state here that I would not buy from them again. See, his response does not approach the possibility that a health issue not could cause problems with shed despite proper temps and humidity. He also insinuates that, after telling him that I provided proper temps, standing water in a dish and misted two to three times daily, keeping the humidity up, that I neglected to provide adequate hydration for my animal. His last sentence tells me to keep a dish of water in the enclosure, and then he says thank you. No "im sorry you lost you animal" only advice that any beginner could wax from a handbook or care sheet. He didnt even mention the possibility that illness could be a sign of a health problem. That made me feel rather angry and it was insulting.

Im aware that after a month its really in my hands, but that doesnt change that there was a problem that I could not have forseen in the first place. Nor did I have it in a cage with bigger cresties that could be eating its food and stressing it out" as you say. I think I made that clear.
When I received the Gecko, I only noticed that it was small, I had no other indication that it cold be unhealthy. So I didnt contact them. When it had problems shedding, I upped the humidity and provided a small container with moistened paper towles hoping it would help with the shed. So I didnt contact them. After photographing several of my animals, I noticed in the photos that the little guy was looking thin, I attributed this to the stress of moving and that I had read this may caus them to go off eating. I researched tricks to get them to eat, adding a drop of honey and a bit of banana to the CGD to entice the little guy into eating, so I didnt contact them. When I started to get really concerned, I purchased some pedialyte and added it to the water to help rehydrate the animal. A few days later, the little guy looked worse, so at that point, I contacted Ryan, the gecko breeder at Underground asking for help. I didnt ask for a refund, I didnt accuse him of anything, I didnt complain about anything, I simply asked for help. Before he had gotten back to me, the animal had passed. I gave him the information he asked for. The only thing I learned was that pedialyte will also aid in shedding. He did not even approach the possibility that a pre existing health problem caused the shedding problem.
After giving him the info he asked for, he gave me the above quoted response, with all its insinuations.

SO what has me confused is why the other Geckos are doing well, and this one has failed to thrive. Im not accusing them of anything or asking them to do anything or holding them responsible, but between receiving a crushed frog and a runt gecko that failed to thrive under what I understand to be optimal conditions, all in one month, I simply do not wish to buy from them any more. Thats just the unfortunate experience I had with that company, Im sure alot of other people are quite satisfied with them and the animals they have received from them. Im still impressed by their store, their videos and the way they care for their animals. I just dont think that common sense based on my experiences would lead me to continue to buy from them.

 

[ronritzer]

*that illness could be the cause of a shed problem

 

[ronritzer]

 

[ronritzer]

Since Im not going to stand for all this nonsense about me housing them all in one container, there you go, there are the three starter containers I house the remaining three in. There used to be a fourth. So theres the proof. I hope that puts an end to Ryan's or anyone else's suspicion that this Gecko was housed with other Geckos.

How many other Geckos did you house it with Ryan?

There is a picture of the little guy that died. This was taken on the 1st. He does not appear this dehydrated due to any lack of water. He appears thin because he was sick or stressed and not eating. I had seen him lick droplets several times after misting, though I never saw him drink any standing water.
Given that Gecko was three weeks old at LEAST before he sold it to me, and that picture was taken two weeks after I got it, it had to have been at least five weeks old. I had never owned or cared for such young hatchling Crested Gecko's, so I don't know how much they grow in the first five weeks. Despite being dehydrated and starving in this picture, whats their average size at five weeks? How about at five weeks?

 

[ronritzer]

*three weeks

 

[djfishygillz]

*three weeks

That thing is pretty dang small. It did suck that you didn't have the eye yet pointing out a small and possible sick crestie. I apologize I didn't think they were that small.

Seeing how small that is does make me wonder why not wait a few more weeks to ship them out. When I have a runt in the group I do my best to house them alone, raise them until a bigger size, and then tell the buyer that one is a runt. But maybe I just have more time than UndergroundReptiles because I am a small breeder not dealing with numerous orders daily.

Also providing the pictures of the cages helps with your side in my opinion just so there are no questions and it puts more on him instead of you.

 

[ronritzer]

Like I said at the point photo was taken, it had to have been a minimum of five weeks old if Ryan is being honest about the age they offer them for sale at.

Im not trying to put anything in particular on them. Especially since I didnt report any problems to them right away (because I didnt think anything was going on that would result in death of the animal). But there is no denying that the animal was very small when I received, considerably smaller than the other three. They were deli cupped in pairs, and the one deli cupped with it was only slightly smaller.

I'm, upset that the animal died. I honestly did everything in my knowledge about Crested Geckos that I could have. I certainly did not neglect the animals in any way, or negelct to offer them proper care. That's why the insinuations in Ryan's email to me (and later, his response here) added enough insult to injury for me to come here and state that I would not buy from their company again.

The possibilities that my mind is entertaining are not silly, as Ryan said. WHat Iam thinking is the animal was a poorly established runt that shouldnt have been sent out. ANother possibility is that the stress of shipping and a new environment were too much for the little guy to recover from, whether due to health problems or not, it just didnt recover and adapt. The first possibility would certainly be at the fault of Underground Reptiles, the second could go either way depending on how well established the animal was before being sent out.
I am certainly curious to know if the animal waqs ever observed eating at all, or if it was housed individually or not. Ryan's assuming I kept them as a "group" makes me suspect he houses them in either groups or pairs. Ultimately I just don't know.
Why this Gecko faded slowly and died after a month while the other ones are doing well is something I just can't place the blame anywhere except the simple facts of nature. Certainly the notion that perhaps this animal should not have been sent out quite yet is not "silly."

 

[ronritzer]

sorry, meant to say the one deli cupped with it was only slightly larger.