Second Breeding Attempt

[Scooter1685]

So I'm a fairly new face around here. I'll spare the long story and describe this particular issue. I'll make a second post detailing my horribly failed first breeding attempt afterwards, heh.

Anyhow, suffice to say that I am a university student studying biology. I've been keeping and researching reptiles for over 19 years, though I only began with boids 8 years ago. My first breeding attempt was in 2009, and was less than successful.

This year, my Ambrosius is rather large and should make a wonderful father (if he agrees, of course!). He was born in 2006 and bred from Bob Clark lines. He's a type2 anery Colombian, and he's the most docile reptile I've ever owned. Although he is not the most stunning boa, and his progeny won't sell for high prices, he has always been and will always be my favorite boa. I bought him from a man named Chris (who ostensibly purchased him from bobclark.com), an employee of Tropical Encounters. Unfortunately the store has since closed in my area, and he now works with Inked Reptiles, or Inked Up Reptiles or some such thing. Ambrosius is currently 7'6" in length, and very heavy. I'm unsure of his weight, but he is very muscular and eats one 1.5-2 pound f/t rat every 7-9 days.

A friend of mine asked if he could breed his 2009 female motley purchased from Jeremy Stone, and his 2008 unproven double het snow possible het stripe female from Baker's Boas to him. I was a bit unsure about adding 2 females for Ambrosius to breed with, but eventually I agreed. The greater risk is to my friend's females if they produce mainly slugs, and if he's willing to breed them I suppose I am as well. I agreed to take 30-40% of the total viable offspring with the understanding that I get first pick from both clutches. I'm excited for my second breeding attempt and hope it goes a bit better this time around. I've been researching more, and from a wider base of sources, and hopefully I won't make the same mistakes I made in 2009.

During the breeding process I'll probably keep this thread updated, as sort of a chronicle. I'll add pictures as I am able, starting with a couple of Ambrosius with this message. Any advice or comments are appreciated, so long as they are constructive or humorous. Please no intentional offense, this is my second time and I am still learning about this new and exciting aspect to my herpetocultural hobby.

Thank you all for your time and consideration, and I look forward to hearing from you over the coming several months

 

[Scooter1685]

My first breeding attempt was a pairing between Kalypso and Ambrosius. Kalypso was a 6'4" female Colombian boa I purchased from an acquaintance in the military. He was leaving and couldn't take care of her in his absense. She was absolutely stunning for a normal Colombian, with an incredibly melanistic tail and very intense pinks in her face and along her ventral surface. At the time, my Ambrosius was only about 3 1/2 years old, but already about 6 feet in length and very active. I decided I wanted to try making boa babies.

I read a book entitled "Captive Husbandry and Propagation of the Boa Constrictors and Related Boas" by David Fogel, and followed it as closely as I knew how. I dropped ambient temperatures to 70 at night and 78 during the day. I cycled the lights with 8 hours on and 16 off. I stopped feeding. The brumating period was 4 weeks, followed by introducing Kalypso into Ambrosius' cage. However, I somehow managed to gain the impressino that I should only leave them together for 3-4 weeks.

After 4 weeks, I separated the pair of them. Then an unexpected heat-wave hit and summer temperatures rose to 103-109 on average. The house we lived in at the time had no air conditioning. Approximately 2 weeks before I was expecting babies, a huge storm hit and lasted 3 days. On the final day of the storm, Kalypso gave birth. In the clutch were 28 slugs and 4 baby boas. All of the babies had yolk-sacks still outside their body, connected by an umbilicus. 2 of them ruptured their yolk sacks while breaking free of the soft, membranous egg.

I placed the other two in a carefully-tended box lined in moist paper towels, and sprayed the towels with warm water to keep them moist. I knew they would likely not make it, but I wanted to at least try to care for them as well as I knew how. Of course, they only lived about another 2 hours.

This was my first and only breeding attempt thus far.

 

[Scooter1685]

Oh, forgot to post those pictures of Ambrosius. Here they are!

 

[Scooter1685]

I made a mistake, Ambrosius was born in 2005. My apologies.

 

[Scooter1685]

Still plenty of time before the breeding commences. He shed 2 days ago and deposited today. I tried to feed him today and he refused, which is a bit unusual for him. I haven't started changing temps or photoperiod at present.

I intend to offer food again tomorrow, then again on the 2nd, 9th, and 16th of November. On the 26th of November I'll begin lowering his temps just slightly. At present he has a 91 F warm end and a 82F cool end. I'll be dropping it to a 76 cool at night and 80 during the day on the cool end, with the basking down to 88. All this is based off of things I've read from other breeders, but of course many of you guys have more experience than I do with this stuff. If you have some advice, or something that works well for you, please don't hesitate to mention it.

On Dec. 21st I will introduce both females into the male's enclosure. There they will remain for a period of 13 weeks, with temperatures restored to my usual. Humidity will stay at 61% throughout all of this, since I find that level of humidity works well for shedding ease but doesn't encourage RI to develop.

That's the plan at least. I'll be separating them after 7 weeks and I'm sure by then Ambrosius will be one hungry guy. Hopefully it all works out great!

 

[Scooter1685]

Did I seriously say after 7 weeks... I meant after 13 weeks.

 

[Durante]

Just curious what made you decide to us two females?

 

[Scooter1685]

Fair question. My friend, who owns them, mentioned that Ambrosius is a bit larger than they. He has bred once, and I clearly didn't leave them together long enough. His hypothesis is that, given Ambrosius' size and lack of breeding activity, he may be a bit less than delicate with his females.

Of particular concern for him was the idea that one of the two females he wishes to breed has never been bred before. While I fail to understand the full implications, he seemed of the opinion that it would be better to have two females for Ambrosius to divide his attentions between. Since this is only my second breeding attempt, and he has produced successful litters in the past, I deferred to his judgement.

Is this a common practice among breeders? Based on your question I would assume not. Could it potentially be a bad idea if all the boas involved are healthy and mature?

 

[Durante]

Honestly, I've never breed my boa's so you actually have more breeding experience then I do. I have heard of a few breeders placing males with multiple females & heard others claim they experienced better outcomes using a single female. I'm sure you'll get some great tips, there are a lot of knowledgeable people here. Keep me posted & good luck.

 

[AbsoluteApril]

beautiful anery for such a big boy! Good luck on your pairings!

My first year trying to breed boas, I was successful with a large het albino male that was placed with a large normal and then also an albino female. I did not place the two girls together with him at the same time, I switched him between the two ladies. They ended up giving birth about 1 week apart in 2003. The 1st litter with the normal was 34 and the 2nd litter with the albino was 18 (although that litter WAS premature and only 4 of the little ones survived - I suspect it had more to do with the female than the male).

Since then, I had only done 1 pairing per season simply because I found that first time to be quite overwhelming. Oh and I don't drop temps, I leave them at their normal temps year round.

 

[Scooter1685]

I've heard Jeff Ronne mention that, maintaining at constant temps rather than dropping for a cyclic approach. I've never really had a successful breeding, as I said. I'm just curious, if temps are maintained year round how do you attempt to trigger seasonal breeding responses?

Most of the breeders I've read about that don't cycle seem to prefer a "let's see when they're ready" type of approach, by watching for specific behaviors. One spoke of breeding only when they refuse food (which would be NEVER for some of mine). Another spoke of breeding only when he noticed a pre-ovulation swell. Another mentioned just housing pairs together year-round and having great success nearly every year, without altering anything including feeding schedule. It seems highly variable.

Since this is my second attempt, and my first went so poorly, I'm kind of using a combination approach. I'm combining Jeff Ronne's advice in "The Boa Constrictor Manual" with my friend's advice. My reasons for this are simple; clearly Jeff knows what he's talking about with regard to breeding, and my friend has produced a couple of successful clutches.

As I mentioned earlier, any and all advice is welcome. Thanks guys, for your support and for your advice. I'm totally new at breeding, and the hands-on experience you guys have is more valuable than the biological analyses my professors provide. At least, as regards actual breeding, lol.

 

[Scooter1685]

Ambrosius is still refusing his food. I suppose I could stop offering and start his cycling early... I'd really rather he ate just a few more times though. He's my baby and I don't want to risk stressing his body any more than I have to. Perhaps I'm paranoid.... He is huge and probably fine, but I worry about him going without food for 4 months or so...

 

[Metachrosis]

You need to clear your head, there appears to
be nothing you understand"completely".
There is no magic to breeding BCI,
one boy snake and one girl snake added to one box then detained.
Snakes will do, what snakes do if given the time.

When you over load and over lap public forum fodder
the info never gels,you need to dig in and pursue a viable plan.
Try something different the next go etc.
Crawl,Walk,Run.......

 

[Scooter1685]

You need to clear your head, there appears to
be nothing you understand"completely".
There is no magic to breeding BCI,
one boy snake and one girl snake added to one box then detained.
Snakes will do, what snakes do if given the time.

With so many different approaches all leading to success stories, should there be anything else I understand completely? Even some of the best known breeders like Jeff Ronne & Brian Gundy admit that there is a large element of luck to breeding boas. But I fail to see why that means I shouldn't chronicle my attempts to keep a track record and help me point out exactly what did and what did not work out for me. Additionally, in the process I may receive tips from several individuals who have bred successfully, and those tips may just be valuable and help me avoid making mistakes. I'm not simply breeding stock here. Ambrosius is my favorite boa, and I care a great deal for his well-being. I've cared for him and raised him since he was as big around as my finger. If I were to make a stupid mistake that resulted in some injury to him, I'd never forgive myself. Better to post here and have at least some chance that someone will catch on if I am making such a mistake.

When you over load and over lap public forum fodder
the info never gels,you need to dig in and pursue a viable plan.
Try something different the next go etc.
Crawl,Walk,Run.......

This post is intended as something of a blog. I type exactly what my plans are and what I'm doing step-by-step. I can and do write very similar things in my personal notes (defecation, shedding, feeding, etc.), only here others can see what I'm posting. That means that I may potentially receive feedback that helps my understanding and possibly my success. It also means that other individuals in a similar position can read this, and possibly avoid some of the mistakes I made.

Perhaps I'm a bit odd in this fashion, but I actually learn from things like this often. I search for and read first-hand accounts of exactly what people did, how they did it, why they did it, and what the results were. This helps me to analyze reactions and attempt to apply the underlying concepts to my particular situation. It's similar to watching a documentary, or reading an article in a scientific journal. It describes the end goal, the means to get there, and then chronicles the process and results.

I suppose at this point my post is of considerable length and possibly repetitive. I do apologize, I'm simply confused about your purpose in posting that particular response.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

 

[Durante]

I'm not simply breeding stock here. Ambrosius is my favorite boa, and I care a great deal for his well-being. I've cared for him and raised him since he was as big around as my finger. If I were to make a stupid mistake that resulted in some injury to him, I'd never forgive myself. Better to post here and have at least some chance that someone will catch on if I am making such a mistake.

I suppose at this point my post is of considerable length and possibly repetitive. I do apologize, I'm simply confused about your purpose in posting that particular response.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

I cant speak for his comment on his behalf but I assume what he is trying to say is your jumping around with the advice from good references when you need to decide how you want to do it. Here are my thoughts... Hopefully your successful but the bottom line I think is no matter what you do you cant force nature. It's going to come down to the boas.

The names & resources are familiar & the knowledge you can gain from the personal experience of others is extremely valuable & respected by many including myself, yet you seem to be very hesitant in your own decisions. It almost seems like your looking for approval more then your looking for advice because you kind of skipped around a few topics. No one is telling you what to do or whats right & wrong, it's your choice. The things mentioned were only said to help give you things to think about so you can make the decision best for yourself.

I asked why you decided on 2 females rather just 1. I only asked because being a male myself I know that more females equals more stress. Sorry ladies that was a joke, but on a serious note, I think you knew it already because you mentioned his current feeding habits & the "risk stressing his body". It was also mention by someone boas have bred successfully without dropped temperatures & again it seems like you know the risk involved with taking them actions. Your gonna be responsible alone if you fail, not anyone's advice or a book but your also going to be the person responsible if your successful too. I wish you the best of luck in what you do, but you need to decide 100% what your doing first.

 

[Metachrosis]

Ask Jeff what he means by "luck" as you quote it
in breeding boa's. successful reproduction and hitting morph percentages etc
are entirely different

 

[Durante]

I cant speak for his comment on his behalf but I assume what he is trying to say is your jumping around with the advice from good references when you need to decide how you what to it. Here are my thoughts...

Ask Jeff what he means by "luck" as you quote it
in breeding boa's. successful reproduction and hitting morph percentages etc
are entirely different

Sorry Tommy didn't mean to cut right in a few minutes earlier & speak for you, I should have waited a little bit or just posted my opinion.

 

[Scooter1685]

@ Durante - I see what you mean, lol. My mistake. I did post exactly what my plan is, though as you mentioned it is scattered rather than coherent or cohesive. I should have organized my thoughts better before creating this thread. My mistake.

Also, I suppose to some extent I am looking for approval. My first attempt was a complete flop, and although I did learn from it I also felt terrible. My Kalypso must have had a hard time passing that many slugs, and poor Ambrosius probably didn't like being yanked away while he was still breeding. The worst part though was the babies. They were so tiny and adorable and helpless, and there was nothing I could do to save them once they were born. All the stuff I should have done takes place before birth. In all honesty, I suppose that by "approval" what I mean is that I'm looking to make certain I'm not screwing anything up as badly as I did last time. I do have a definite plan, though it is a compilation of tidbits from different sources. I will be going partially by trial-and-error and partially by the advice of peers. I simply want to make sure those errors aren't going to risk the lives of my boas.

@ Metachrosis - Look here at what I'm saying; these are direct quotes from the book. (Page 64)"I recommend having at least one male available per female." (Also from page 64) "When breeding boas, some breeders use multiple males, but I have found that this is unnecessary and less effective than using a single male." These two statements are somewhat contradictory, no? Yet they were found on the same page together.

Another example on page 65; "....in an effort to follow and find the female, which (hopefully) is producing pheromones to attract a mate.... If the male is not courting the female after this period, remove it, feed the female a small meal or two, and keep them separated for approximately three weeks. After three weeks, reintroduce the male following the same instructions as before." Certainly seems to indicate that this doesn't always work well. Hence the luck thing.

And more examples, "This reintroduction procedure can be repeated three or four times in a single season... Often when the male is introduced to the female, he shows no interest in courtship."
An excerpt from page 71, "....boas born during the early part of the possible gestation period are more likely to still be inside the tough sack, usually with huge bellies full of yolk or a yolk sack still attached to them. Offspring born at the tail end of the possible gestation period are more likely to have absorbed all of their yolk, and emerge already out of the sack." Sure sounds like luck would be a significant factor in having healthy baby boas.
Page 72, "Different females seem to have different ways of accomplishing this." Oh look, more of that variability I was talking about, where different things can all lead to the same result.
Page 74, "Often one or two babies, or sometimes the entire litter, is slightly premature." Look! Another place where luck seems to play a role in successful procreation of boas.

Sometimes things go wrong. It may be because your snakes simply don't like each other. It may be that the female happens to give premature birth, resulting in reduced viability. It may be the fault of the keeper, not leaving them together long enough or having inappropriate temps or humidity. YOU feel free to ask around; sometimes things just happen. This is what I meant by luck. As you can see from my examples, when luck is mentioned it IS sometimes referencing the actual breeding rather than finding new genetics.

You don't need to read these ya know. I would certainly appreciate help, but the type of things you're posting seem to contain little helpful information and lots of criticism. If there is something specific you see that I could change about what I'm doing, please feel free to let me know. If you're just trying to say that what I'm doing is odd, or not what you would do, point made. Thanks for your time.

 

[Scooter1685]

It occurs to me that I may be reacting more severely than circumstances warrant I apologize for that. Today my pain medications aren't doing their job very well, and that can sometimes increase my grouch-factor. Add to that the fact that midterms begin tomorrow for me, and it's safe to assume I'm likely reacting more poorly than I ordinarily might.

However, I would like to point out a few specific things about those messages that sort of lend to them sounding less helpful and more critical. Take this for what it's worth, I'm not trying to give a lecture on etiquette or anything. Just pointing a few things out.

~Durante, when he posts, demonstrates in his writing that he has read and understood my posts. He does this by referencing the things I have mentioned, and responding to specific parts of my posts. In this way it is quite clear what specific things he is speaking about, and he also makes clear and specific recommendations. He is always careful to mention that others may have better advice, which is prudent and cautious, though I suspect he's read enough on these forums to be able to reproduce some of the successes

~Metachrosis, in his posts, begins with things like "you need to clear your head" which seems to imply that my thinking is somehow impaired. He also says things like, "Ask Jeff what he means by "luck" as you quote it in breeding boas. successful reproduction and hitting morph percentages etc are entirely different" seeming to imply that I am incapable of understanding plain text written clearly in front of me.

Instead of things like this, which do not point out specific things items that could be altered to yield greater success nor specifically how to alter them, perhaps point out exactly what part of my thread indicates that my thinking has become clouded. Or, in the case of the discussion about luck, perhaps less critical phrasing might be more like this (purely as an example), "That may not be the only meaning of the word 'luck' as applied to breeding boas. It could also be referring to stumbling upon a new genetic trait." This phrasing also implies that I have not taken the full meaning, but does so in a far less critical fashion that is less likely to offend.

Again, I apologize for that. Today has not been a great day for me, for several reasons, and I reacted more harshly than I ordinarily would. My bad.

 

[Metachrosis]

Ive read thru this a few times and still cant figure a way to respond without you remaining over critical of what is said.
Its now clear by your words that you are in need of chill pill.
You have your brain so over loaded with variable breeding data,compounded by a failed first attempt at breeding,
pain,pain meds and school.

Pretty well confirms the need to "clear your head",there is a thread of anxiety,paranoia running thru every one of your post.
Human emotions are well proven to be the most detrimental to captive
instinct driven animals,proper grounding in the basics is never expounded
upon for humans to actually "GET IT"

Reptiles are very simple creatures

It occurs to me that I may be reacting more severely than circumstances warrant I apologize for that. Today my pain medications aren't doing their job very well, and that can sometimes increase my grouch-factor. Add to that the fact that midterms begin tomorrow for me, and it's safe to assume I'm likely reacting more poorly than I ordinarily might.

Again, I apologize for that. Today has not been a great day for me, for several reasons, and I reacted more harshly than I ordinarily would. My bad.