Second Breeding Attempt

[Scooter1685]

I wasn't doubting that he knew his stuff. I thought that he and I were each failing to understand exactly what the other person meant. For that reason I continued to repeat myself in new and exciting ways. By exciting I mean mortifying... really I didn't mean to come off as offensive as I did. Again I apologize, soooo much. I would never have been that offensive intentionally. Really I didn't mean it to sound that way.

 

[Scooter1685]

JCCS, this page has turned over. I want to make sure you get my full explanation and apology, which is on page 6 (post 60). This is just to make sure that you see post 60, because I really sounded completely offensive and I honestly did not mean to. I need to get better at speaking with actual people rather than other people in my field. I find myself sticking my foot in my mouth a lot. Really I'm sorry...

 

[JCCS]

Tyrel, what I believe I am trying to get out here is that I know all your "jargon". It's not confusing, I can use it just as well as you can, but I don't use it because it is tedious and pretentious and honestly is mostly unnecessary with our practical applications. I have some biology under my belt, graduated cum laude in psych and am about half way through a master's. Good for you that you have some education, stop trying to prove it to everyone. Much like many people from the scientific community, you came in here sounding really arrogant but doing dumb stuff. You refer to yourself as a "boa researcher", yet you're running around with a boa on your neck handing out candy.

As much as this pains me to say it, I think Tommy had it pretty well figured out. Chill out, put some snakes together, get some babies, get wet behind the ears, and then come talking like you have been. There are some serious scientific minds in the boa community, Warren Booth for example, and they don't try to talk themselves up like this. I think that Albert Einstein once said that if a person cannot explain a concept in a simple manner, then they do not fully understand it.

Again, I'm not trying to break on you, but I think you're trying too hard for whatever reason. Sit back, enjoy life, have fun.


Chris

 

[Scooter1685]

I would have apologized sooner, but I just got home from a meeting at work, which lasted 2 and a half hours.

Here is what I read about pastels that provided the basis of information for what I was saying:
1. http://www.sareptiles.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=24070
"As far as I know there's a difference between pastels and salmon boas which I think you are refering to here Tony. The pastel is supposed to be a line bred trait and the salmon, which is most commonly used to make sunglows, is a proven co dom trait as when a salmon is bred to a normal, only half the resulting offspring will display the salmon trait but when a super salmon is bred to a normal, all the resulting offspring will display the salmon trait and when 2 salmons are bred together you will get normals, salmon and super salmons in the clutch thus proving it a co dominant trait.

A pastel on the other hand is like the super hypo leopard geckos, it's a linebred (polygenetic) trait and you need to breed 2 together to get pretty babies. Breeding a pastel to a normal will reverse the effect and the normal gene will dominate it.

I heard a while back that Brian at BHB might have bred a super pinstripe ball python. Apparantly the animal looks exactly like a normal pinstripe but when bred to a normal it only produces pinstripe offspring and he has bred this snake a few times now and the results are the same everytime.

Also, an interesting thing that Jay Brewer said at the THA meeting was that his oppinion on most of the co dom ball python mutations (and he just used ball pythons as an example, this applies to most snake species with co dom morphs) is that a lot of them are actually just visual hets of recessive morphs like fire, cinnamon, mojave, yellow belly etc because when you look at their super forms it's just insanely different from the snake that it came from. Look at a yellow belly for example, would anyone ever have thought when you breed 2 together that you would hatch a white snake with a yellow line running down its back? True co dom morphs are ones like pastel, enchi, sunfire retics, etc. This was of course his oppinion on the subject and everyone will have a different oppinion. Makes sense to me though.

Genetics will always have us guessing. Maybe one day we'll figure it all out."

2. http://www.selectivebred.com/collectiondt.asp?ID=4
"Pastel Boas are a polygenetic morph that have been carefully developed using selective breeding techniques to produce Boas with reduced black pigment & a pink or orange pastel coloured wash. Pastel boas generally tend to show ‘washed out’ side markings due to the reduction in black pigment.

I have a few unrelated lines of pastel boas all of which exhibit soft colourful hues. Most of these lines have also been produced by adults of relatively small maximum adult size."

3. http://www.boasandballs.com/CollectionBoa.html
"Coral Albino Bci

Genetics: Color and pattern mutation - Simple recessive.
The coral albino boas originated from one of Pete Kahl's original hetero bloodlines. It was first produced in 1990 or 1991. When he bred hetero's from this bloodline I noticed several of the babies were much more colorful and had a lavender coral color to them. He kept them back, and as they grew there color intensified to almost a coral/lavender body color all over the animal."

4. http://www.kingsnake.com/boamorphs/pastel.htm
I won't post an excerpt from this one because of how long it is.

5. http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/162595-pastel-boa.html
There is more to this one in the post, but it also is rather long and I've only posted the first bit.

"Which is what you should say (IMO) when looking at a pastel and is what defines a good pastel. One mans pastel is another mans pretty common so in my mind you should leave no doubt. Pick pastels form good strong coloured very clean parents, this is one of those morphs that's quite simple. Bright parents = bright babies.

The people with reallly truly nice pastels will be laughing, with so many albino boas being produced he wioth the brightest pastel will (eventually) produce the brightest albinos and the cleanest/lightest ivorys (pastel anery). those with the crappy "are they aren't they" pastels won't find them quite so useful."

This is the information I read regarding inheritance of the pastel coloration. If the information I have is incorrect or misleading, I would be grateful for your input on the matter. Again, I apologize for sounding like a perfect I totally didn't mean to sound that way. My bad.

 

[Scooter1685]

It's not confusing, I can use it just as well as you can, but I don't use it because it is tedious and pretentious and honestly is mostly unnecessary with our practical applications. There are some serious scientific minds in the boa community, Warren Booth for example, and they don't try to talk themselves up like this. I think that Albert Einstein once said that if a person cannot explain a concept in a simple manner, then they do not fully understand it.

I'm not trying to sound pretentious. These are the words we use in my laboratory on campus, and in my classes. It's simply how I speak. I use these words because I believe they most accurately portray my meaning. Again I apologize if it sounds that way, but this is simply how I speak. I speak this way to my wife, to my professors, to my colleagues, in my papers, and I even speak this way when typing up my plans. This is simply how I speak...

 

[JCCS]

I really don't know what the first quote is getting at, other than the ramblings of a fairly confused individual. The second quote is directly from Jeff Ronne, as is the Kingsnake article, those are good resources. Coral is simple enough, honestly. And the guy in the last quote seems to have decent ideas.

Chris

 

[Scooter1685]

I offered food to all my reptiles Saturday. Again everyone ate aside from Ambrosius, who refused for the second consecutive incident. As a result, I have begun lowering his temperature and photoperiod as described in my plan on page 1. I also contacted my friend (who owns the 2 females I will attempt to breed Ambrosius with this year) to inform him that Ambrosius has not eaten in a few weeks and has begun cycling. He has now begun cycling the females ahead of schedule. I should be introducing them in a couple of weeks. Hopefully I will be able to report observed courtship by the end of this month.

I also came to a few realizations and subsequent decisions unrelated to my breeding of boids, but unfortunately related to this thread thus far. I am, apparently, a somewhat abrasive individual. Perhaps, as I asserted before, immersing myself in an academic and/or laboratory environment has impacted my ability to communicate effectively. Perhaps, as others have insinuated, I'm simply a condescending or presumptuous . In any case, the result is the same and frankly I'm sick of discussing the matter. I am me, and you are you. C'est la vie.

The decisions I've made are as follows: I will stop posting lengthy stories and explanations of the proceedings. I'm sure most of you prefer short posts and longer posts just show how much of a wind-bag I can be. I'll still continue to post updates and I will use words I am most comfortable using, which will generate posts very similar to the first paragraph of this one. Just because I learned the term "cloaca" at 9 and didn't hear the term "vent" until I was 20 doesn't make me pompous. I will speak in a manner I am comfortable with. If you don't like it, don't read it.

My posts, following this one, will contain information regarding my boids that is specific to this breeding attempt. I don't need to tell past stories, and most of you don't want to read them anyway. I don't need to explain myself, and doing so mostly serves to present myself as whiny. I don't like doing it, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic intended for this particular section of Fauna. I'll stick to the boas, pythons and anacondas and ignore posts that discuss other things.

These changes will serve to reduce my stress, keep this thread more focused on the appropriate subject matter, and hopefully resolve some conflict. I shouldn't have allowed myself to focus on other issues anyhow. This is a boa forum, and on it I will discuss boas. This is my last long-winded, off-topic rambling post.

 

[Scooter1685]

Ambrosius deposited urates today, though it appears to have been significantly more fluid than usual. He also seems to be spending more time on the cool side of his enclosure at present. Combined with his refusal to eat for the past few weeks, that may well be indication that he is preparing for breeding. I'll take this as an encouraging sign, since the females are now scheduled to be introduced on Wednesday the 14th of November (8 days from now). This date of introduction would correspond to them being separated on Friday, February 15th 2013.

According to reports from my friend who owns the females, they seem to have become slightly restless. They are spending more time exploring their enclosure, and have both begun to go into shed. He placed them in the same enclosure together in order for them to acclimate to each other. Hopefully this will result in less stress when both are placed with Ambrosius. We shall see if his endeavors are fruitful.

 

[AbsoluteApril]

you're going to place the two females in with the male at the same time? interesting, never heard that before, I'll be interested to hear how it goes...

 

[Scooter1685]

I'm a bit skeptical about the practice as a rule. It seems to me that it would cause more stress to all the animals involved. However, this particular breeding attempt is mostly to gain experience on my part. Ambrosius will be fasting for the same period of time regardless, though it will likely consume more of his energy reserves to have two females at once. That seems to be the greatest risk for me and Ambrosius.

The greater risk, at least to the best of my knowledge, is to the two females. With two females, Ambrosius' affections will need to be spread between them. This means possibly fewer ova fertilized and potentially more slugs. From what I have learned slugs tend to be more difficult to pass, increasing risk of the females becoming egg-bound.

I have discussed this with Skyler, the owner of the two females. He understands and accepts the risks involved. For my part, I will be observing the boas to see what happens. If I see courtship and copulation from Ambrosius, preferably lots of the latter, I will consider the breeding attempt a success and likely use the plans from this year as a basis for future breeding. Barring the multiple females of course, unless that yields unexpectedly great results. I expect better results from pairing single couples (1 male to 1 female).

 

[Metachrosis]

NEVER intro females into an establish male encloser,one is just asking for a negative incident.



I could say,"I would like to see pics or video myself"
But honestly I feel really bad for the animals in his care.

you're going to place the two females in with the male at the same time? interesting, never heard that before, I'll be interested to hear how it goes...

 

[ShadowAceD]

NEVER intro females into an establish male encloser,one is just asking for a negative incident.



I could say,"I would like to see pics or video myself"
But honestly I feel really bad for the animals in his care.

^ That.

 

[Metachrosis]

Not sure why Ronne and Vin left this vid out of their books but

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TK27aknWVI4#!

 

[Metachrosis]

If that link doesnt work try this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Fm8FJ8la2VU#!

 

[Scooter1685]

Some breeders introduce the male into the female enclosure, and some prefer to introduce the female into the male enclosure. I've read accounts from and spoken to breeders who espouse both methods. Every time I introduced multiple boas into the same enclosure it has been the female into the male's enclosure. So far I have no negative experiences with this.

Regardless I recognize the undertone of care for the animals. Thanks for your concern. We shall watch and observe.

 

[Durante]

Additionally, in the process I may receive tips from several individuals who have bred successfully, and those tips may just be valuable and help me avoid making mistakes. I'm not simply breeding stock here. Ambrosius is my favorite boa, and I care a great deal for his well-being. I've cared for him and raised him since he was as big around as my finger. If I were to make a stupid mistake that resulted in some injury to him, I'd never forgive myself. Better to post here and have at least some chance that someone will catch on if I am making such a mistake.

I think it's pretty clear a few are trying to provide you some insight. I mentioned before your the one responsible for your success or failure based on your own decisions but I remember a few things, just of the top of my head that were mentioned...

-you were running late into the season
-it was wasn't common practice to introduce 2 females to an established male
-you & your wife were both very busy & stressed students on top of being parents
-you were unemployed for the last 3 years & babies could be expensive to care for

Maybe it would be best to step back & rethink your plans & possibly pushing them back. Keep in mind the reason why you want to breed in the first place, your choices will display this more then words to most. Best of luck in your decisions.

 

[Metachrosis]

Its pretty clear your boa's are nothing more then another academic
performance quest,red flags went up on your first post that suggested your
approach was purely mechanical and you'll continue regardless of who says or proves what.
Im done with it . . . .

 

[Scooter1685]

I find it difficult, reading this page of posts, to refrain from posting a response of my own. It will be lengthy despite my previous decision to avoid lengthy posts. Take this explanation for what it's worth, or don't. That is your decision and you are welcome to it.

Its pretty clear your boa's are nothing more then another academic performance quest,

In this forum, I have admitted literally since day 1 that I am an academic, meaning that I read, study and learn from as many sources as possible. I firmly believe that everyone has something to teach, even if the lesson is what not to do. However, confusing that for lack of concern regarding my animals is a mistake. They are a part of my daily life, and will continue to be so. I love them as I do members of my own human family, and your opinion on the matter does not change that. They receive regular veterinary care, and according to that reptile-specialist veterinarian they are very healthy aside from the new female, who is underweight and has a visible spine nearly the length of her body. That is unhealthy in humans, dogs, and most other animals, and will be remedied with time and a regular feeding regimen.

However, when confronted with such a wide array of practices leading to success I became confused as to how I should best proceed. It was then that I decided to post on Fauna, to seek advice from those with more experience. My efforts on that front have met with mixed results.

Some of you seem content to offer tidbits of advice from your personal experience, but otherwise sit back and see how my attempts progress. I thank those individuals, and I believe they know who they are. Others among you have decided instead to ridicule and condemn any perspectives or practices that may run contrary to your own practices and experience. I find that significantly less helpful, and I do not thank those individuals. However, I will attempt to glean what information I can from posts made by those individuals. I have been methodically copying and pasting posts made by myself and others for future reference. Regardless of your approach, your input has been noted and will be considered.

red flags went up on your first post that suggested your approach was purely mechanical and you'll continue regardless of who says or proves what. Im done with it . . . .

I will continue regardless of who says what. That was always the plan and I apologize if I gave any other impression. My attempt was not to decide whether to proceed, but rather how to proceed. In the presence of so much conflicting information, nearly all from sources who are respected either in the science or in the hobby related to boas (or both), I decided the best approach may simply be to stop asking for continued conflicting reports and choose a method that fits my own parameters and limitations. It is unorthodox in some respects, and I will remedy some of that in future attempts. Some other parameters that may seem unorthodox to some and familiar to others, I may well keep. That depends on what observations and results I am able to obtain from this breeding attempt.

With a lack of decisive consensus I have definitely taken a more methodical approach, as that is what I have learned in my education and is what I am personally most comfortable with. I will try a few things and see what works well for me and what does not. The results will be posted in this forum for those who wish to see them and learn from my attempt, whether that be to learn that other methods can indeed result in success or to learn what not to do, as mentioned before. It's entirely possible, and even probable, that some of the decisions I have made in this breeding attempt will prove to be ill-advised. It is also possible, and probable, that some of the decisions I've made will yield positive results. Some of it will work, and some of it will not work, but regardless my efforts will continue and will improve with time.

One thing my experience on Fauna has already taught me is that nobody gets it right the first time. Patience and retrospect are important learning tools. To an extent, all the success stories here are the result of repeated attempts with varying levels of success. There is always a risk involved with placing boas together regardless of the precautions taken and parameters set. Those risks are accepted by everyone who decides to attempt to breed their boas, though the risks may be slightly different based on the chosen parameters.

I do thank you for your assertion that you are finished concerning yourself with my breeding attempt. You're certainly welcome to either wait and see what happens, or ignore this thread altogether.

 

[Durante]

Its pretty clear your boa's are nothing more then another academic
performance quest,red flags went up on your first post that suggested your
approach was purely mechanical and you'll continue regardless of who says or proves what.
Im done with it . . . .

 

[JCCS]

Whenever you happen to remove your head that contains that "academic" brain of yours from whichever orifice it currently resides in, let us know

On a side note, congratulations, you have performed a function with this conversation. This thread may mark the first time where Tommy and I agree wholeheartedly.

Chris