Bad Guy My experience with Underground Reptiles

[chollowell]

January 3rd I received an Aru green tree python from them. When I opened the package I saw mites crawling all over the animal and the bag it was in. I immediately began soaking and treatment with zoo med mite off. I also disinfected the bag and set up a quarantine temporary cage. I also informed underground of the problem. Ryan B was very nice apologizing for the problem and said he would send me a bottle of their mite killer. Of course I have other reptiles so I kept the green trees cage cleaned daily so the mites couldn't spread and had him far from my other reptiles. I continued to keep in touch with underground thinking the snake would make it and everything would be fine. I wiped mites full of blood off the snake daily. I had him on paper towel since much easier to clean and see mites on. I misted the snake 2-3 times a day. I fed him a meal. Figured all would be good once the mites were gone. But they never seemed to leave. I kept finding them on him. On top of the bottle of mite killer I was offered a discount on my next purchase. I tried giving the benefit of the doubt with them thinking this would be solved. January 10th arrived and still no mite killer even though I was treating the snake with the mite killer I had. I contacted Ryan B and he apologized said to resend my address and would send a bottle of mite killer. I was nice and thought they were sincere about it being a mistake sending me a mite covered snake. The snake went down hill very fast with the mites. I fed him and his color was beautiful and I really kept hoping he would make it. January 17th the mite killer arrived from underground so I treated him with it. I disinfected his cage yet again. Put him back in it and humidity never ever got below 50% you could actually see the condensation in his cage. And his temps at night were never below 76 and during the day was 88. He perished the evening of the 17th and I immediately packed him up and took his cage apart to disinfect and since it was late I emailed underground. January 18th I was in contact with them and over the phone was told mites couldn't have caused the snakes death or problems and blame was turned on me. Then the only thing I was offered was a discount on another reptile that they couldn't replace it. To me a mite covered snake is not a healthy animal and they should stick to their "healthy" guarantee. My husband called and I emailed requesting to speak with the owner and nothing ever came of it. I emailed them the 19th and still nothing. I'm very upset by the loss of this animal and the fact he didn't make it. After the fact of a refusal to replace the animal or at least a refund. All my benefit of the doubt went out the window. So I posted on Facebook where obviously some very ignorant people feel the need to immaturely defend underground. I find those people pathetic. Everyone's experiences are different. I thought maybe a mite infested snake was a mistake and would be fixed and felt like well maybe the rest of their reptiles are healthy. But I'm very unhappy that this isn't resolved with my reptile which was 325 that I didn't have to throw in the trash. Sincerely Chelsea. Btw I have 13 years of experience with reptiles.

 

[NIGRO51]

Do you have any pictures or emails ?

 

[chollowell]

Most of my contact was over the phone. I have one email saying the were sorry about the snake having mites and would send mite killer. They said to call so most contact was calling. I have one picture of the dead snake. Nothing of the mites bc it's not easy getting pics of mites. How do I post a pic on here.

 

[SquamataMississauga]

Post the e-mail.
What "mite killer" did they send you?
It's possible like the Zoomed brand that they'll only kill the mites and not kill any eggs/prevent further infestation.

 

[Pasodama]

Could you describe how you treated this snake for mites?
How often you treated, if there was soaking directly after treatment, overall general & exact method plus timeline, etc.?

 

[chollowell]

The mite killer they sent me was in a bottle with a piece of paper taped to it that had "mite killer" written on it. I treated for 3 days upon getting him. Then gave him a break for a couple of days. I was following the instructions on the zoomed bottle. I only soaked him once and that was when I first got him to remove some of the initial mites. I didn't receive their mite killer until the 17th and I sprayed the snake with it and that night the snake perished.

 

[GMTIRRILL]

Chollowell,
i am sorry for what has happened but this is the norm for chondros boughten from stores like this if you want a chondro private breeders are the way to go. if you still have the mite killer they sent you might want to send in to be tested.

 

[chadharper]

Chollowell,
i am sorry for what has happened but this is the norm for chondros boughten from stores like this if you want a chondro private breeders are the way to go. if you still have the mite killer they sent you might want to send in to be tested.

Ive driven from north florida(Jacksonville) to both BSR and Underground before to make larger purchases, I have been in their store and seen their stock, at that time they had healthy GTPs, as well as the other store. For you to go off and say buy from a private breeder is a little harsh.

Im not defending Underground, but their prices are lower and they buy at a lower price so you get what you get. Id like to see proof of this transaction, also think you should inform them of this thread. Thanks and good luck with a reasonable outcome to this situation.

 

[GMTIRRILL]

Ive driven from north florida(Jacksonville) to both BSR and Underground before to make larger purchases, I have been in their store and seen their stock, at that time they had healthy GTPs, as well as the other store. For you to go off and say buy from a private breeder is a little harsh.

Im not defending Underground, but their prices are lower and they buy at a lower price so you get what you get. Id like to see proof of this transaction, also think you should inform them of this thread. Thanks and good luck with a reasonable outcome to this situation.

It may have been harsh, but sometimes the truth is harsh. i also would like to see proof of the transaction but i would like to see what is in they're house made mite killer, the lineage paper work for the animal, the feed and defication paperwork and the care sheet they sent with the GTP and since they blamed the buyer for animals death that tells me they do not care about the animals they are selling

 

[NIGRO51]

since they blamed the buyer for animals death that tells me they do not care about the animals they are selling

I disagree. The snake was with the buyer for 15 days and it is possible that the buyer is at fault (I am not saying it is definitely the case but its possible).

"I only soaked him once and that was when I first got him to remove some of the initial mites." --That isnt much of a treatment.



"I didn't receive their mite killer until the 17th and I sprayed the snake with it and that night the snake perished." --Was the whole snake sprayed? Just the tail? The head and face????

 

[Pasodama]

I disagree. The snake was with the buyer for 15 days and it is possible that the buyer is at fault (I am not saying it is definitely the case but its possible).

"I only soaked him once and that was when I first got him to remove some of the initial mites." --That isnt much of a treatment.

"I didn't receive their mite killer until the 17th and I sprayed the snake with it and that night the snake perished." --Was the whole snake sprayed? Just the tail? The head and face????

That is what I am, or was, trying to figure out. Did the GTP have a preexisting condition or if it is possible that it perished due to toxicity.

From what I read, in the initial post, it seems that, other than the mites, the GTP appeared fine. It ate and OP said he was beautiful.
Also, from what I read in the initial post, there was treatment, prior to receiving what Underground sent, as well. Although Zoo Med Mite Off isn't a very effective product (from what I understand since I have never used that particular product myself).
Then, it isn't known what Underground sent as "mite killer". The same directions do not apply to all mite treatment products. So, it is very important to know what you are using and how to use it.
Some products cannot be applied directly onto the snake and with some others, that are directly applied onto the snake, it is necessary to rinse it off after "x" amount of time after application. The snake would also do well to have a soak afterward.
So, as of this moment and without further info/facts, I haven't been able to draw a conclusion just yet.

 

[Serenescales]

I've already given my opinion on all of this, since I've been involved in the Facebook post you made on their page.

Seeing your post here, having already read your FB post, is adding to my overall confusion about what exactly happened.
Here's a screengrab of the facebook post for everyone here (relevant bits only, you can go and see it all for yourself):

You say you got it about 12 days ago, on a Monday, but here you're saying it arrived on the 3rd which was a Thursday.
Your story also changed a few times, you originally said you sprayed with water and then changed it to spraying with mite killer.

At this point I'm just pretty confused.

I mean, no one knows what exactly went down until we see proof of it all.

This is also why filming unboxings are important, it shows that the animal was infected from the moment it arrived and that it was, in no way, your fault.

 

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Okay..... we haven't heard UG's side of the story... but since no one seems to be disputing the fact that the snake had mites...

that ALONE is not okay!!! And then to claim that mites cannot cause direct death of an animal?? I am appalled... of course mites can kill a snake. UG sent a mite infested snake. That alone is enough to put this on them. UG is trying to make it seem as if they are not responsible because mites are no big deal.... well they are a big deal. And then to send an unlabeled bottle... what are they thinking? It's pretty obvious that they are attempting to wash their hands of the situation by downplaying the dangers of mites.

Having said that I don't really have time to stay and elaborate on all of the little things... yes the OP is obviously a noob and has no idea how to treat for mites. But they were also being "guided" by someone they thought they could trust.... and lead to believe this would fix the problem.

 

[Pasodama]

Absolutely correct in that it is Not okay to send a mite infested snake.
Also correct is that mites alone have the potential to cause death (via fatal anemia from a prolonged heavy infestation).

I had also given thought to the "mite killer" not having been identified on the label. UR should have labeled the bottle with the actual name of the product. Not just "mite killer".
However, while thinking about the unidentified "mite killer", that came without directions (I am assuming), I know that I, myself, would not use it without asking the sender what it was (and for directions if I did not know what they were).
So, while the mite infested snake falls squarely on UR, both parties share some fault/blame when it comes to the unidentified "mite killer".

As for the actual cause of death, it is still unknown at this time.

 

[tommyhil4_6]

Mite-off is a topical treatment used to kill "born" mites, but does not kill their eggs. Using mite-off or similar type products will ONLY KILL the present born mites. Although the present born mites are killed, the eggs will re-hatch and re infest.

There are NUMEROUS correct methods to ERADICATE mites.

Provent-A-Mit (permethrin base products, apparently differs from nix via a cis/trans alteration vs the below when I called to inquire "why it's better". Apparently makes it more effective long term, hence the treat every TWO weeks excerpt)

Nix Lice Treatment (permethrin based as well). Believe the box comes with 2 bottles 6 mL each. 1 bottle : 1 gallon water. This can typically be used DIRECTLY on the snake and enclosure etc. (This is MY preferred method).

Sevin Dust: Mite/Flea killer. You can spread granules around the EXTERIOR of the cage (NEVER NEVER NEVER PLACE INSIDE WITH YOUR HERP(s)). This will kill any "Traveling" mites hopefully before they reach additional enclosures.

"No Pest Strip": This has been used FOR years, BUT has been proven if used in HIGH concentrations for extended periods of time to cause neurological damage to animals. NEVER use in rooms with gravid females. I steer clear from this particular treatment method as I believe if you use a little more "elbow" grease and put the work in, you can achieve even better results using some methods stated above.

Mites and their eggs: Mites have a 5 stage life cycle. STAGE 5 IS THE ONLY VISIBLE STAGE to the human eye. This is ALSO the stage where these mites change from "blood suckers" to "egg layers". Mites can also travel the distance of your house in a single night. Spreading infestation is EASILY DANGEROUS.

Also another word of advice for anyone with mites. THEIR EGGS CAN AND WILL CLING TO YOU AND YOUR CLOTHING. BE SPREAD BY AIR FLOW AND LAND ANYWHERE AND EVERYWHERE. You MUST MUST MUST change clothing, disinfect and shower IMO if you are dealing with mites, before you DO ANYTHING ELSE IN YOUR HERP ROOM(S).

Another good reason to QT animals, as mites manifest quickly. Their life cycle is approx. 2 weeks (hence the 2 week PAM treatments etc).

OP: Sorry you got a snake with mite, I wish you had come to fauna sooner for help and guidance. Chondros are notoriously difficult, especially after stressful shipping, mites, potential issues and mite treatments of a high chemical content.

I will wait for UG to come in to pass any other judgement then this. NO ANIMAL SHOULD BE SHIPPED WITH MITES. PERIOD. I myself just received one, within 2 days treatment of my own revised methods, I have eradicated at least 60-80 visible mites from a neonate boa.

I offer my help to anyone dealing with this issue. PM or Email me. I'll do whatever I can to spread my success and knowledge with these evil critters. Hopefully this offer isn't against the rules, but I feel to many people are not educated enough to truly handle the situation.

Good luck.

 

[tommyhil4_6]

Absolutely correct in that it is Not okay to send a mite infested snake.
Also correct is that mites alone have the potential to cause death (via fatal anemia from a prolonged heavy infestation).

I had also given thought to the "mite killer" not having been identified on the label. UR should have labeled the bottle with the actual name of the product. Not just "mite killer".
However, while thinking about the unidentified "mite killer", that came without directions (I am assuming), I know that I, myself, would not use it without asking the sender what it was (and for directions if I did not know what they were).
So, while the mite infested snake falls squarely on UR, both parties share some fault/blame when it comes to the unidentified "mite killer".

As for the actual cause of death, it is still unknown at this time.

My gut suspicion would be a NIX base solution. Cheap and can be made in huge quantities. Especially if UG expected her to spray directly onto the animal.

We will have to wait and see. Without a labeling of the "Active ingredients", such as permethrin and directions... i'd NEVER have sprayed an unknown liquid on my animal.

Definitely some general lessons to be learned here from anyone reading this.

 

[Serenescales]

Rereading this I have a few more thoughts/questions.

I'd like to see the emails and such sent between the two, even if most contact was done over the phone.

I have one email saying the were sorry about the snake having mites and would send mite killer.

Did you call when you received the snake or did you email them about it? Personally, I call every time I get a shipment, as soon as it is unboxed, so I can get a response immediately if there is any problems. I, personally, would not have emailed them saying that the animal arrived covered in mites.
Did you ask for help treating the mites or did you ask for a replacement and they instead offered mite spray? What exactly happened there?

 

[FAZE31]

Snake should never had been sold with mites!!! That is the bottom line!!!!! Answer this question if you received a snake covered in mites how would you feel/react? Jmo but the customer has ever right to a full refund!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[UndergroundReptiles]

Sorry to leave everyone in the dark but I do not work on Saturday and Sunday the store is closed. Mrs. Hollowell ordered this particular snake 2 weeks ago. This particular snake had been in our care just over 3 weeks. Each week had fed for us and by all accounts appeared to be in perfect health(including mite free). I believe it was about a day after she received it Mrs. Hollowell informed me that though she was very happy with the snake, and it appeared healthy, she did believe it may have few mites on it. She told us she was treating it with mite off by zoo med. As is standard practice at our store we immediately offered to send out a free bottle of mite kill and discount her next order with us. We do not ask for pictures because most will lack a camera strong enough to picture the animals and quite frankly even if the person was mistaken, I'd rather give away a free bottle of mite kill and a discount than lose a customer. For whatever reason the first bottle was lost in the mail, so we sent a second bottle. Mrs. Hollowell informed me that the snake was doing well and eating for her and that she was going to use the mite kill solution to get rid of the mites. The next message I heard from her is that the snake was dead and that could not possibly be her fault because she had been working with reptiles for 13 years. As is standard practice we asked for pictures of the snake and of the setup she kept in. We received a picture of a snake, which appeared to be mite free(although the camera was not close enough to confirm). We then received a picture of what appears to be a 10 gallon glass aquarium with an infrared light, heating pad and pine shavings for the substrate. She also informed me that the chondro was also kept at about 45% humidity but sprayed twice daily. I also pointed out in her picture that cage appears near a window, another big "no,no" when housing animals in glass aquariums. I then informed Mrs. Hollowell via a phone conversation that this was not standard or proper procedure for housing Green Tree Pythons. She once again reiterated her many years of experience at which time I explained that Chondros can give even the most expereinced reptile enthusiast trouble especially given the need for very specific husbandry requirements. I again apologized to Mrs. Hollowell and informed her that we could not replace the animal free of charge, do to the improper setup and the fact that under no circumstances can we guarantee an animal after two weeks of being in her care, which by her own testimony said that the snake was doing well. So as a gesture to help Mrs. Hollowell we are offered to give her another snake below wholesale pricing if she made the necessary changes to her enclosure. It should also be noted, not as a point to add any validity to either her side or ours, but as a character reference, that since speaking to Mrs. Hollowell on Friday, at which time I made this offer, and at which time she showed no displeasure, that her and her Facebook friends have gone out of their way to speak ill and slander our company. This can be seen simply by viewing our page and reading the comments and searching how the people are tied together. As always we are open to suggestions and thoughts. I attached a picture of the cage setup she sent us.

 

[GMTIRRILL]

Sorry to leave everyone in the dark but I do not work on Saturday and Sunday the store is closed. Mrs. Hollowell ordered this particular snake 2 weeks ago. This particular snake had been in our care just over 3 weeks. Each week had fed for us and by all accounts appeared to be in perfect health(including mite free). I believe it was about a day after she received it Mrs. Hollowell informed me that though she was very happy with the snake, and it appeared healthy, she did believe it may have few mites on it. She told us she was treating it with mite off by zoo med. As is standard practice at our store we immediately offered to send out a free bottle of mite kill and discount her next order with us. We do not ask for pictures because most will lack a camera strong enough to picture the animals and quite frankly even if the person was mistaken, I'd rather give away a free bottle of mite kill and a discount than lose a customer. For whatever reason the first bottle was lost in the mail, so we sent a second bottle. Mrs. Hollowell informed me that the snake was doing well and eating for her and that she was going to use the mite kill solution to get rid of the mites. The next message I heard from her is that the snake was dead and that could not possibly be her fault because she had been working with reptiles for 13 years. As is standard practice we asked for pictures of the snake and of the setup she kept in. We received a picture of a snake, which appeared to be mite free(although the camera was not close enough to confirm). We then received a picture of what appears to be a 10 gallon glass aquarium with an infrared light, heating pad and pine shavings for the substrate. She also informed me that the chondro was also kept at about 45% humidity but sprayed twice daily. I also pointed out in her picture that cage appears near a window, another big "no,no" when housing animals in glass aquariums. I then informed Mrs. Hollowell via a phone conversation that this was not standard or proper procedure for housing Green Tree Pythons. She once again reiterated her many years of experience at which time I explained that Chondros can give even the most expereinced reptile enthusiast trouble especially given the need for very specific husbandry requirements. I again apologized to Mrs. Hollowell and informed her that we could not replace the animal free of charge, do to the improper setup and the fact that under no circumstances can we guarantee an animal after two weeks of being in her care, which by her own testimony said that the snake was doing well. So as a gesture to help Mrs. Hollowell we are offered to give her another snake below wholesale pricing if she made the necessary changes to her enclosure. It should also be noted, not as a point to add any validity to either her side or ours, but as a character reference, that since speaking to Mrs. Hollowell on Friday, at which time I made this offer, and at which time she showed no displeasure, that her and her Facebook friends have gone out of their way to speak ill and slander our company. This can be seen simply by viewing our page and reading the comments and searching how the people are tied together. As always we are open to suggestions and thoughts. I attached a picture of the cage setup she sent us.

OK so there was a big problem with husbandry. the set up was not correct for a chondro i can see that from your photo. Did you send a care sheet with the animal?? Did you explain what was needed as a cage set up before she bought it? since this animal seems Tobe ether a farmed bred or wild caught animal did you guys quarantine the animal before putting the GTP on sell? What was the mite killer and why did you hand write the label on the bottle? I am not trying to bash your name but i would like you to answer these question