Bad Guy Kammerflage Kreations- Inbreeding/line breeding

[sschind]

Any of the chameleon breeders that Ive talked to were completely against inbreeding or line breeding. I don't know how it is with other herps on here but no one i know deliberately inbreeds panthers or sees a need to. No one that ive talked to has openly said they would prefer an inbred or line bred animals. Nor does anyone i know ever purchase and brother and sister with the intent of breeding the 2. There is plenty of chams you can breed and still achieve desired traits. It not like hes producing anything out of the ordinary such as bigger or better chams, simply line breeding for aesthetics. Fact is that I want other cham owners and breeders or future pet owners that share the same views as me to be aware of his practices. IF you like line breeding then go right ahead and purchase from him.

Of course none of them would openly admit it, if they did you would run to this site and make a bad guy post about them. Some people will tell you what you want to hear and since a lot people have a tendency to over react, as you have, so when the subject of inbreeding/line breeding or what have you some people will go with the safe answer. That answer is usually something along the lines of "I don't believe in it and I don't do it. I think it is wrong and I think it is bad business." Now I am not calling anyone in particular a liar but I would be willing to bet a good portion of people who say they don't do it are just saying that because they figure it is what you want to hear. I'd be willing to bet that the number of breeders who have not done any inbreeding/line breeding are in the minority. It is possible that the ones you spoke to are of that ilk but its is also possible that they are being a tad less than truthful.

 

[rcarichter]

Any of the chameleon breeders that Ive talked to were completely against inbreeding or line breeding

Can you please tell us who the breeders are that you've spoken with? Thanks.

Noelle

 

[Wilomn]

Can you please tell us who the breeders are that you've spoken with? Thanks.

Noelle

Yes, I'd like to know as well. You seem to talk to a lot of anonymous people. That doesn't fly here. Name some names or quit trying to convince us you've had these conversations. Telling us you can't because of privacy issues won't work either. You've said you talked to them, if you want ONE shred of belief, then you need to name them.

 

[KevinOpp]

I will step up and say that I am one of the breeders that had a brief discussion with Marcin re: this issue. I am including my (honest) reply to him in it's entirety. this has no bearing on whether its a "good guy" or "bad guy" thread, just some additional facts. and I need to expand a little here for those they may not be as familiar with chameleons vs. other reptiles. many people do not realize how incredibly long most commonly-bred cham species eggs incubate for; they're typically laid after 45 days or so, but take anywhere from 9-12 months to hatch, with some species going even well past 18 months. then add another year or so before those youngsters can breed themselves, and yet another year before those babies hatch and several months more before their phenotypic traits can even be seen. this is very different biology than let's say a ball python with a common 2 month incubation period. what therefore happens is that due to the more extreme amount of time between generations and the difficulty and variations in chameleon husbandry (which can become quite complex), it is very difficult, if not impossible to pinpoint 1-3 years down the road what may have caused issues with a clutch or even just a few hatchlings that went bad. was it the inbreeding/linebreeding, or something completely unrelated? these kind of questions are much, much easier to determine with species that can breed multiple generations within a much shorter period of time as well as having simpler husbandry. anecdotally, I have found that many cham owners feel that chameleons have much more difficulty with close breeding and undesirable recessive traits coming forth when compared to many other popular reptiles. but that isn't scientific, something I point out in my reply below. I work exclusively in herp medicine now and there are many species out there that do just fine with close breeding and the efforts are typically better documented IME. but we cannot make a blanket statement about the 9000 or so reptile species out there and say that they all do just fine with close breeding issues.

anyway, below is my response regarding the FB thread, and it just exemplifies different strokes for different folks. Ed and Liddy have been breeding for over 30 years, who am I to question the couple that have been probably the most successful cham breeders in history? however, it also doesn't mean that every other breeder needs to follow directly in their footsteps either.



i have always had a decent respect for the Kammers and what they do, but am a bit surprised by some of ed's responses. i definitely disagree with one of ed’s first statements that selling them younger is a new owners best option as it’s the absolute opposite of what i do. i basically have zero interest at all in letting any of mine go until at least the 5-6 month mark as i feel that it’s to their tremendous benefit to be raised under my wing, outdoors in FL where they have thrived and built an excellent foundation of health for the rest of their lives. and i also feel it puts them well past any danger zone of developing any negative health issues as opposed to what still faces them in the next few months when they are only 2-3 months old. but that’s my technique, and it’s fairly unique among breeders at this time.

re: the in/linebreeding; i wouldn’t do it based on what i know at this time. perhaps that position may change over time but in the past i have agreed with posts of the position that chams just don’t seem to do as well with close family breeding as compared with something like ball pythons. they are completely different critters and chams always seem to love to find a way for something to go wrong….the offspring may retain some of the excellent phenotypic traits of the parents, but i just can’t see how there would be no decrease in genetic strength/viability/diversity in the majority of cases (mutations that advance a species are extremely rare compared to those that harm a species), and for someone who wanted to breed said animal it should be more likely to have difficulty producing viable offspring. but not always...

the main issue is that there is no real research being done, just case examples here and there. and if breeders are doing it often with apparent overall success, they aren’t being vocal about it (which is their right). if they have been doing it successfully for a long time and were open about their results it would benefit the entire chameleon community. so until that day comes my position is what i’ve stated. and no matter what, since there are many unanswered questions about so many things regarding chameleon breeding, lineages and locales i find my best option is to put out all of the info i have regarding the lines of what i may be selling, and let the buyer ultimately decide. i personally couldn’t do something that i looked on as questionable by the majority of cham owners and keep it somewhat obscured.

but again that’s me, and i don’t think i have every answer. just the way i choose to do my thing. but thank you again for the interesting link!

 

[deadliesthatch]

Ed Kammer is a good guy and this individuals thread proves it. 1) He told you the animal you were interested in was line bred. 2) this is called honesty. His animals are as attractive as they are, in part, because he line breeds. 3) I own attractive reptiles, all captive bred, because someone, in part, line bred them. 4) As you stated, there are enough panther.......... which indicates that no valid species survival plan applies, so who cares if some are line bred for attractive attributes? I have had many business dealings with Mr. Kammer in the past and he always was honest, straight forward, informative and truly excited about his animals. Seems like you have a problem with the mechanics of captive breeding programs and not Ed Kammer.

 

[LateNightGeckos]

Sibling breeding is inbreeding. Line breeding is not inbreeding.Line breeding is done with partial sisters or brothers and grandparents. Mom back to son is inbreeding and not line breeding.Too much inbreeding and you will get some issues to deal with. A lot more then with line breeding.
At least with dogs.

LoL, to be clear line breeding is inbreeding, it's just that line breeding refers to putting extra consideration into what that mating will produce. The breeder is not breeding just random related animals, but pairing the two together to increase the chances of desired traits. Whether it be grandparent to grand"child" or even siblings, it doesn't really matter as that is not what determines whether that pairing is line bred or not.

 

[deadliesthatch]

Exactly. My only point is that inbreeding for desirable traits is one of several options a breeder might use. Deleterious traits arise but can usually be "selected out" of the group. If someone breeds that way and is honest about it than I do not see a problem. I was far more opposed to inbreeding before I learned that some animals like elephant seals, are all virtual clones. There may or may not be serious long term consequences for the species. No one knows.

 

[meowmeowkazoo]

For the sake of posterity....

(continued in another post)

 

[meowmeowkazoo]

(and here's the rest)

 

[LauraB]

re: the in/linebreeding; i wouldn’t do it based on what i know at this time. perhaps that position may change over time but in the past i have agreed with posts of the position that chams just don’t seem to do as well with close family breeding as compared with something like ball pythons. they are completely different critters and chams always seem to love to find a way for something to go wrong….the offspring may retain some of the excellent phenotypic traits of the parents, but i just can’t see how there would be no decrease in genetic strength/viability/diversity in the majority of cases (mutations that advance a species are extremely rare compared to those that harm a species), and for someone who wanted to breed said animal it should be more likely to have difficulty producing viable offspring. but not always...

Well stated. I wholeheartedly agree.

That said, I have purchased from the Kammers, paired that male with the same locale female from another breeder and produced georgeous, healthy offspring.

 

[deadliesthatch]

Well this thread just convinced me of one thing. When or if I ever purchase another panther chameleon, I will gladly get mine from Kammerflage Creations. Ed Kammer does not disappoint and I trust the man.

 

[RichsBallPythons]

Does the OP not understand, that most if not all CBB reptiles somewhere down the line was the results of Line breeding and or Inbreeding!

If you want pure unrelated to others, import your own stock.

 

[august quion]

All I can think of when I read this is (True Blue Nosy Be) for the most part the true blues have been line bred for years to get as blue as they are!!! That said from what I understand reputable breeders will out cross these true blue to WC male nosy be showing blue traits every few generations to keep the gene pools strong!!
I just bought a group of true blue Nosy Be, grand sire (Sinatra) and grand dam Sire (Nihlus) were from kammers, in simple words the parents of the hatchlings i bought were from Kammers, I will tell you this they are the most beautiful already blue very large and robust hatchlings, I bought these at 5 weeks old and they are now 2.5 months old now and already hitting 5" male is already showing full body blue, healthy in every way. I myself am not going to line or inbreed, I bought another group of true blues from grand sire Blue Dream grand dam from amazing blue, but in reaility I bet alot of the great true blue be's are related many generations ago.
So in my book Kammers has some of the best colored panthers, has been around for many years and know what they are doing, they would be out of business if they were sending out unhealthy chameleons




chameleons.

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

You know, we as people USED to be able of a thing called critical thought process. Seems now we have been programmed to buy into anything we read on the internet, instead of actually researching it.

So lets assume the OP is still capable of that critical thought process, and hasn't lost that ability due to generations of being programmed by media and those around him. Here is a common sense approach to the issue...

Don't these Chams come from an island? An island that has been separated from the mainland for IDK, ½ million years maybe? And seeing as they come from an island, just how far "unrelated" can any of them possibly be? Did our club and spear wielding ancestors understand genetics so well that they traveled to all corners of the world, collecting "unrelated" specimens, and bring them back to this island so that the gene pool would be diverse enough to support the current market? And even if we could assume that our distant ancestors DID indeed bring in fresh unrelated genes to this island, do you think these unrelated genes stayed that way after all this time of isolation? Or did "mother nature" make an exception to the rule, and allow these creatures to flourish all this time, producing perfectly healthy specimens generation after generation, even though they are isolated and therefor forced to reproduce with relatives, or become extinct?

There is some seriously flawed train of thoughts going on here. And now that flawed train of thought puts an otherwise reputable Cham breeder in a negative light. Me thinks this thread is unfounded, and sheds more negative light on the OP then his intended victim.

 

[djfishygillz]

All I can think of when I read this is (True Blue Nosy Be) for the most part the true blues have been line bred for years to get as blue as they are!!! That said from what I understand reputable breeders will out cross these true blue to WC male nosy be showing blue traits every few generations to keep the gene pools strong!!
I just bought a group of true blue Nosy Be, grand sire (Sinatra) and grand dam Sire (Nihlus) were from kammers, in simple words the parents of the hatchlings i bought were from Kammers, I will tell you this they are the most beautiful already blue very large and robust hatchlings, I bought these at 5 weeks old and they are now 2.5 months old now and already hitting 5" male is already showing full body blue, healthy in every way. I myself am not going to line or inbreed, I bought another group of true blues from grand sire Blue Dream grand dam from amazing blue, but in reaility I bet alot of the great true blue be's are related many generations ago.
So in my book Kammers has some of the best colored panthers, has been around for many years and know what they are doing, they would be out of business if they were sending out unhealthy chameleons




chameleons.

Great point about the true blues Augi.

Like I said on the facebook post Kammers obviously is sending out great chameleons. If they were unhealthy chameleons the reptile community would of heard about it by now.

 

[Fishbone]

And to the OP, I don't really think this should qualify as a "bad guy" thread. When asked, he openly stated the lineage, so if you didn't want something from a related pair, you could, and did, choose not to buy it. From a business perspective, he seems completely on the up & up. You should, as a buyer, ask questions. That is your responsibility, and you did. He should, as a seller, answer them honestly, and he did. That's his responsibility.

The fact that you don't agree with his breeding philosophy and pairings by no means makes him a bad guy. If anything, this should've been an info thread, and really, IMHO, shouldn't have been posted on the BOI at all. There are plenty of places to debate line breeding and outcrossing, both here and on other forums. You never even seemed to have completed an agreement, much less a transaction, so this has very little to do with Kammerflage Kreations business practices. That's my couple of pennies anyways.

 

[djfishygillz]

And to the OP, I don't really think this should qualify as a "bad guy" thread. When asked, he openly stated the lineage, so if you didn't want something from a related pair, you could, and did, choose not to buy it. From a business perspective, he seems completely on the up & up. You should, as a buyer, ask questions. That is your responsibility, and you did. He should, as a seller, answer them honestly, and he did. That's his responsibility.

The fact that you don't agree with his breeding philosophy and pairings by no means makes him a bad guy. If anything, this should've been an info thread, and really, IMHO, shouldn't have been posted on the BOI at all. There are plenty of places to debate line breeding and outcrossing, both here and on other forums. You never even seemed to have completed an agreement, much less a transaction, so this has very little to do with Kammerflage Kreations business practices. That's my couple of pennies anyways.

The OP's argument has changed multiple times, but the one he seems to be sticking to is that Kammer's only told him about the line-breeding when he asked. He is trying to say they don't tell the buyers unless they ask if they are line-breed. Even though the pictures of the parents are posted. Overall the OP is foolish and just digging a hole for himself.

 

[Mafia89]

Yes, I'd like to know as well. You seem to talk to a lot of anonymous people. That doesn't fly here. Name some names or quit trying to convince us you've had these conversations. Telling us you can't because of privacy issues won't work either. You've said you talked to them, if you want ONE shred of belief, then you need to name them.

It is not my place to name any other companies or breeders that stand behind me. I leave it up to them to speak out if they choose to. For you to believe that 100% of people are for in/line breeding is asinine.

 

[rcarichter]

It is not my place to name any other companies or breeders that stand behind me. I leave it up to them to speak out if they choose to. For you to believe that 100% of people are for in/line breeding is asinine.

Sorry, but if you post on the BOI, the rules dictate that anyone mentioned must be named. You can't be anonymous here.

Noelle

 

[Wilomn]

It is not my place to name any other companies or breeders that stand behind me. I leave it up to them to speak out if they choose to. For you to believe that 100% of people are for in/line breeding is asinine.

For you to make this statement is just plain stupid. I have never stated that I believe 100% are for anything.

Either name them or run away crying, either way your name is pretty much mud around here.