Bad Guy Andrew Hermes of Arizona Tortoise Compound

[KenS]

IMO: As a tortoise breeder myself, if I EVER did any type of deal with ANYONE and the animal I sent arrived dead, IT WOULD BE MY LOSS!!! I would make good on it!! I am sorry, but that is just the way I have always stuck by! I just can NOT see how ANYONE can NOT make good on this!! Its just SOOOO clear to me! It arrived DEAD!! I do NOT know either party involved, but this it so sad!! Lets just do the RIGHT THING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ken Siffert

 

[KenS]

Also, I will say this about Andrew ATC, I have NEVER done any transactions with him, but have MANY friends who knows him well and ALL have ONLY told me good things!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[laterob]

2 dead torts. What happens to the $1000? I suppose if adequate proof is supplied on both ends, it should stay where it is?

 

[predators]

You're operating under the extremely false assumption that any given person's TOS are universally legally binding. A buyer agreeing to a seller's arbitrary terms, does not instantly take the seller out of a legally actionable position. Terms have to be "lawful" to be binding. There are general consumer protection laws (UCC), and there may also be jurisdictional factors that could come into play.

If the buyer actually has the means and inclination to pursue legal action, I believe that the court would have to deem the seller's terms to be fully in compliance with any applicable laws, for them to be upheld. Is it lawful for a seller to not provide a buyer's item, in the condition which it was described, based on unforeseen circumstances that were out of the buyer's control? While I don't pretend to know a hell of a lot about the legalities, I don't think it'd be nearly as cut-and-dry as some of you would like to make it seem.

On a personal note, whenever I read terms that stipulate that a buyer is SOL in the event of carrier errors, it just comes across as an extremely slimy way of doing business.

I Have got to say I have been in the hobby, business for 25 plus years. I have always as a buyer and seller operated under the pretense of shipper is not responsible for carrier delays. I have lived and died by this motto. This post above absolutely changes my mind. I have done a 180 and I am stubborn so that is hard to make me do. Your right a universal statement under Terms of service does not absolve responsibility of the shipper or seller of an item . Due care at a minimum has to be involved here. Even in a perfect shipping and packing scenario the Shipper contracted the freight company (UPS in this case) so how is any of that the buyers responsibility that they do not offer insurance on perishables. I hate to see anything go to court but, in this situation I would love to hear what a judge says on this matter. Also, Delta Dash is no better than UPS or FED EX et. Just google, Delta lost my cat, dog et and see how many issues they have. In conclusion This has happened to me 3 times. Twice with UPS and once with the old Airborne express (now DHL) where they have tied up the box in a plastic bag. In the case of Airborne express they actually put it in a steel drum and sealed it at the top. The drum was marked hazardous. It took a crow bar and wire cutters to get it open. The cause each time was something leaking from the box. I would bet that in this case, the tortoise peed and it was leaking from the box. Especially if the shipper used stryo which was the put together kind. The kind that comes from Superior enterprises et.. Not the full fish cooler kind. The edges don't form a tight fit and liquid can easily leak out. UPS is not going to take the time and energy to investigate an unknown liquid coming out. Also, the seller is bringing up the fact that its a 3rd party trade-transaction and is using that to say " I made nothing on the deal" don't fault me.. but, it doesn't matter. The seller for better or worse decided not to make a dime but still has the responsibility. In conclusion the box was not packed completely appropriately for shipping, UPS took action to correct the issue (they are not in the business of caring for animals, so they did what they did to contain the leakage). Also, I bet you the box was delayed because of the drainage.

 

[Timathy]

First and foremost, what a horrible event and how awful for the tortoise! I know Andrew and have had animals shipped from him on multiple occasions. There is NO WAY he put a live animal in a plastic bag. He knows what he is doing and does it well!!! Unfortunately there is always risk in shipping live animals. It is the responsiblilty of BOTH parties to agree on how best to minimize these risks.

To my knowledge, no shipper will insure live animals. Ship Your Reptiles is the only company that offers such insurance. Delta does not unconditionally guarantee live animal shipments either.

One other thing that needs to be mentioned here for all to learn is that it is against UPS policy to ship endangered species. Here is a like to their website, http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/re...ered+species#Endangered+or+Threatened+Species.
It clearly states "In addition to the Prohibited Live Animals list provided here, any live animal that is an Endangered Species is prohibited by UPS and will not be accepted for transportation".

 

[RichsBallPythons]

Call local lawyer and get papers served asap. This is a court matter now and shipper is liable. The TOS will not hold up in court one bit due to being anyone can start up a business and type out a TOS. Courts reject online terms of service that reserve the right to change at any time. And the buyer must agree to the TOS, just sending payment dont mean they agree to it, just means they didnt see it usually. When TOS change, buyers and or users of the site must re-agree to them in order for it to stand in court.

So regardless you will win in court for this case.

 

[Fangthane]

And the buyer must agree to the TOS, just sending payment dont mean they agree to it, just means they didnt see it usually.

Good point. I didn't want to further muddy the waters by getting into that aspect, but I did find an interesting article on the subject. Since it'd seem that many online reptile dealers use something akin to the "Browsewrap" method of implied agreement, i.e. "By sending payment, you're agreeing to my terms", the question of what exactly constitutes a tacit "agreement" becomes a bit more hazy. It'd seem that the "passive" agreements tend to be at least somewhat less binding. Since you brought it up, just thought I'd throw that out there. Wouldn't want people reading the following quote and thinking that it tells anywhere near the whole story.

In regards to a lawsuit and court, as you stated Andrew - the case won't stand due to terms being posted in plain English on the sellers site.

 

[NIGRO51]

UPS would only bag a leaking package.

Just like Anthony said above... they only bag and tag dead bodies!

If you were referring to me as the Anthony above please read again.
leaking present participle of leak (Verb)





Verb




1.(of a container or covering) Accidentally lose or admit contents, esp. liquid or gas, through a hole or crack.

 

[Warren_Booth]

This is a difficult situation, however when you advertise an animal for sale, whether it is yours or belongs to someone else, in my eyes you are responsible. It is your responsibility to get the animal to its destination alive and unless you get the buyer to put in writing that they accept that if the carrier is delayed and the animal dies, then you should cover that loss. I can understand that you cannot simply fork out $3200, however if that were I, I would be offering the buyer $3200 credit with my business. At least that way the buyer can hopefully recoup their money through either the sale of those animals or goods purchased on credit with you, or be happy with those animals.

Shipping through UPS is illegal regardless as they do not accept live animals. This was made abundantly clear a few years back when shipyourreptiles stopped shipping temporarily. Anyone with any knowledge of the reptile industry would be aware of that.

As I say, this is a difficult situation. I had something similar happen to me 10 years ago. In one of the shipments I had arranged from the US to the UK, when I lived there, the seller in the US screwed up. I had ordered three Boelens pythons for a customer who asked if I could get some. I was simply bringing in some boas and balls, but the seller (a large dealer in Florida) said it was not a problem. The buyer wired the money to me, and me to Florida. Well, lets just say the Boelen's never arrived. I was out around $10,000 and the dealer said he did not have it to return. What did he do, he reluctantly sent me a ball morph that was worth that value. Of course, the market in the UK was not interested in a 10 grand ball at the time and I had to take out a loan and pay it off to repay the buyer. Even thought the seller in Florida screwed me, because I was brokering the deal, I was the one that had to make it right. Thankfully Karma caught up to the dealer in Florida in a big way. Long story short, if you broker a deal, you are responsible. No matter what your ridiculous terms are on your website, unless the buyer said I agree, and unless you have no conscience to realize that your shipping method was wrong, and plain illegal, I believe that the Tortoise compound should make this right to the full extent of the value ($3200). The story of the tortoise dying several weeks later is irrelevant. It was alive when it arrived and the buyer/trader made no issue relating to its health.

Just my two cents as someone with experience in brokering a sale that went wrong.

ATC, make it right. (I was actually looking at your site last week considering buying some red foots from you).

Warren

 

[RichsBallPythons]

This is a difficult situation, however when you advertise an animal for sale, whether it is yours or belongs to someone else, in my eyes you are responsible. It is your responsibility to get the animal to its destination alive and unless you get the buyer to put in writing that they accept that if the carrier is delayed and the animal dies, then you should cover that loss. I can understand that you cannot simply fork out $3200, however if that were I, I would be offering the buyer $3200 credit with my business. At least that way the buyer can hopefully recoup their money through either the sale of those animals or goods purchased on credit with you, or be happy with those animals.

Shipping through UPS is illegal regardless as they do not accept live animals. This was made abundantly clear a few years back when shipyourreptiles stopped shipping temporarily. Anyone with any knowledge of the reptile industry would be aware of that.

As I say, this is a difficult situation. I had something similar happen to me 10 years ago. In one of the shipments I had arranged from the US to the UK, when I lived there, the seller in the US screwed up. I had ordered three Boelens pythons for a customer who asked if I could get some. I was simply bringing in some boas and balls, but the seller (a large dealer in Florida) said it was not a problem. The buyer wired the money to me, and me to Florida. Well, lets just say the Boelen's never arrived. I was out around $10,000 and the dealer said he did not have it to return. What did he do, he reluctantly sent me a ball morph that was worth that value. Of course, the market in the UK was not interested in a 10 grand ball at the time and I had to take out a loan and pay it off to repay the buyer. Even thought the seller in Florida screwed me, because I was brokering the deal, I was the one that had to make it right. Thankfully Karma caught up to the dealer in Florida in a big way. Long story short, if you broker a deal, you are responsible. No matter what your ridiculous terms are on your website, unless the buyer said I agree, and unless you have no conscience to realize that your shipping method was wrong, and plain illegal, I believe that the Tortoise compound should make this right to the full extent of the value ($3200). The story of the tortoise dying several weeks later is irrelevant. It was alive when it arrived and the buyer/trader made no issue relating to its health.

Just my two cents as someone with experience in brokering a sale that went wrong.

ATC, make it right. (I was actually looking at your site last week considering buying some red foots from you).

Warren

False, They accept many species for shipping, but not snakes

Amphibians (All): Examples: frogs, salamanders, toads
Crustaceans (All): Examples: crabs, crawfish, lobsters, shrimp
Fish (All)
Insects (Limited to beneficial insects only): Examples: bees, butterflies, crickets, lady bugs
Mollusks (All): Examples: clams, mussels, snails
Reptiles (Limited to the following):
- Lizards: Examples: chameleons, geckos, iguanas, monitors, flying dragons
- Turtles: freshwater turtles (except: snapping turtles), land tortoises, sea turtles
Worms (All)

 

[Brandy Pecanic]

If you were referring to me as the Anthony above please read again.
leaking present participle of leak (Verb)





Verb




1.(of a container or covering) Accidentally lose or admit contents, esp. liquid or gas, through a hole or crack.

Did you learn something just now Tony... and you're so proud of yourself you wanted to show us? I'm confused a little.

Now, check us in with the states of death and decomp? Thanks a whole lot! (NOT!)

 

[kytuan]

it's both fault , the buyer is not picking up on time , the seller is not responding on live animal guarantee arrive, don't talk about TOS , i think noone will worry about TOS and read hundred thousand words before they place an order . They worry about their live animal arrive only .The buyer shppied live animal plus $1000 cash,the seller received everything . The seller shipped too ,the buyer received death animal , it doesn't matter UPS or seller fault , but the seller needs to respond at least 50% value of the animal that he packed and shipped.

 

[Brandy Pecanic]

If they are packed properly for AZ... Tom and I have had them delayed for 4 days and arrive mint. Just saying.

 

[Drew R]

The one thing being left out of the entire conversation is the fact that Radiata is on the U.S. endangered species list. This requires a federal permit on both sides shipper and receiver. Do both parties involved have C.B.W permits? Second even if Andrew has a permit for himself he just admitted a federal crime by shipping an endangered species third party. This is a very sad situation all the way around but ultimately the responsibility lies with Andrew. I am sorry but third party or not Eric's deal was with Andrew.
Respectfully,
Drew Rheinhardt
Co-director Turtle and Tortoise Preservation Group

 

[Warren_Booth]

False, They accept many species for shipping, but not snakes

Indeed you are correct. That is new to me. I had assumed that they classed all reptiles as prohibited.

Regardless, if UPS consider live animals as perishables and they do not cover the lost even if it was insured, then the shipper should be using a different company to ship their animals. Shipyourreptiles allows you to insure your shipment, therefore if packed correctly and it arrives dead if due to the courier, then the cost is covered. The shipper might decide not to offer live arrival guarantee, however they can say that they can be insured for a little extra and thus easing the worries of the buyer. Always choose a company that works with the buyer/seller to insure that the product will be delivered alive and on time, or otherwise it is compensated fully.

Warren

 

[Drew R]

I should add that if neither of the parties involved have C.B.W then both are openly admitting to Federal wildlife violations on a public forum.
Respectfully,
Drew Rheinhardt
Co-director Turtle and Tortoise Preservation Group

 

[Warren_Booth]

The one thing being left out of the entire conversation is the fact that Radiata is on the U.S. endangered species list. This requires a federal permit on both sides shipper and receiver. Do both parties involved have C.B.W permits? Second even if Andrew has a permit for himself he just admitted a federal crime by shipping an endangered species third party. This is a very sad situation all the way around but ultimately the responsibility lies with Andrew. I am sorry but third party or not Eric's deal was with Andrew.
Respectfully,
Drew Rheinhardt
Co-director Turtle and Tortoise Preservation Group

Excellent point that was overlooked by most. Given the range of tortoises that the broker breeds and sells, I would imagine they have this paperwork. Thank you for your contribution.
Warren

 

[Drew R]

Warren
Even if the seller/broker has the paper work it is illegal to ship Radiata for a third party. The recipient also must have a valid C.B.W. So either way the seller/broker has broken atleast one federal regulation
Respectfully,
Drew Rheinhardt
Co-director Turtle and Tortoise preservation Group

 

[Arizona Tortoise Compound]

Here is a list of other companies with the same terms and conditions as Arizona Tortoise Compound..... Turtle and Tortoises.com, Florida Iguana.com, Turtle Source, Exotic Pets, Bill Zovickian, Underground reptiles, Bay Area Reptiles, Tortoise Shack, Garden State Tortoises, Cold Blooded Novelties, Carolina Pet Supply, Blue Water Reptiles, Snicker Snakes just to name a few. A few of these companies actually sponser the "Board of Inquiry".

I only found three companies that cover shipper/carrier errors. They list that info on there terms and conditions page also. Most other sites dont have terms an conditions listed. For those companies , they should since everyone likes to sue.

"Tom and I WILL NEVER let somebody purchase from you! You should refund in full! And we are die hard Tort fans. If you had an ice pack in there, the Tort would have been fine. Just like Anthony said above... they only bag and tag dead bodies! "

As to you Brandy, your confused and comment when you shouldnt, the weather was perfect, nothing to do with cold packs at all. UPS placed the box inside of a plastic sack then in another box. That is how the tortoise died. UPS mis picked the package and it was delivered a day late. UPS said they bagged it in the morning of day two.

Of coarse a tortoise will pee in the shipping box. After 2 days the bottom of the box doesnt hold and will leak. UPS will bag a leaking box. The package was shipped Priority over night.That is what happened.

Erik did alot of things wrong. He wanted a Radiated shipped to his from gate. He asked me to write on the package 'leave at gate' . He didnt want to go to the airport. He didnt make me aware of the late shipping untill 7 hours later.Tracking numbers were provided and he didnt track. He made me aware of the late shipment after UPS closed, the first day.He didnt want to go to UPS and pick up the package on day two after the delay, instead he wanted it placed on the truck for another 15 hour lag and placed at his gate. My package was not air tight and the tortoise could breath fine untill it was placed in a sack by UPS. I ship out, on an avaerage of 10-12 different orders every week. This is the first shipment that didnt arrives safe and sound. I can not control what the shipping company does with the packages once its out of my hands. I also can not control the weather. If a customer wants a tortoise shipped in the middle of December it is of coarse their risk. You want a Radiated shipped to your front gate with no signature required ,its at your own risk. You want the tortoise left on a truck for another day its your risk.


First and foremost, what a horrible event and how awful for the tortoise! I know Andrew and have had animals shipped from him on multiple occasions. There is NO WAY he put a live animal in a plastic bag. He knows what he is doing and does it well!!! Unfortunately there is always risk in shipping live animals. It is the responsiblilty of BOTH parties to agree on how best to minimize these risks.

To my knowledge, no shipper will insure live animals. Ship Your Reptiles is the only company that offers such insurance. Delta does not unconditionally guarantee live animal shipments either.

Yes Tim your 100% right. Placing animals in a box and sending them nationwide is a huge risk and the carrier doesnt cover it.

As to everyone that is telling me to make it right. I offered Erik money and tortoises for life at cost!!! At cost means if I hatch them then it would be free. Erik doesnt want that and only wanted 3k not the 472.56 and store credits for life. I didnt have to offer anything but did. As to him posting the thumbs down posts, the offers of things at cost or free is over now. I made that clear to him as well. Erik will need to provide me with his shipping info within 7 days from today's date to receive the 472.56 refund. After 7 days if Erik doesnt provide me with the shipping info for the cash then that offer is over as well . Also if Erik would share the emails, everyone would see I tried to make it right. I also will not fold because of him posting this. I feel good about the way I conduct myself and company. ATC was created to have the tortoise world feel safe about puchasing a tortoise from a reputable breeder and receive healthy tortoises without someone just stealing the money and not shipping. I can guarntee almost everything except shipper delays,weather and acts of God.

Andrew Hermes
Arizona Tortoise Compound

 

[NIGRO51]

Did you learn something just now Tony... and you're so proud of yourself you wanted to show us? I'm confused a little.

Now, check us in with the states of death and decomp? Thanks a whole lot! (NOT!)

That might be the stupidest thing I read all day. You clearly quoted me wrong and when I politely correct you that is what you had to say?! Next time you address me I will eat the infraction to voice what I think of you.