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What Morph's Can and Cannot Produce offspring?

4PawsMike

4PawsMike

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If this topic has been covered before, excuse my ignorance. I'm just now learning about BP's and their Morph's.

This all started when I saw a Auction for a BP that was priced very low a "Female Desert" no where in the ad/auction did it state that this was not a breedable female. It was stated by another member to my surprise that this type of BP has not produced any offspring as of yet.

So with that in mind, what other Morph's don't produce yet? And why? Why would a color "Morph" keep an animal from being able to produce? I just don't get it!

Are there other snakes that cannot breed for whatever reason? I'm not talking about natural Gay snakes (I'm sure there are Gay snakes around :), I mean why not, I've heard of other animals that don't produce from year to year) for what ever reason they don't ever breed.

What about snakes that consistently slug out every year? Any idea's?

How would you know if someone on Here or other places are trying to sell you a Gay snake? Is it only safe to buy proven? How do you limit the risk of buying a Morph that won't produce?
 
Just because an animal can't produce doesn't make it "gay". There are problems when we as breeders play god with these animals. Constant line breeding and inbred animals tend to develop issues. Such as the desert females. Its not the color morph that makes it not viable. There is something internal that prevents it from producing viable eggs. The end result is either death to the snake or she slugs out. As far as other reptiles I don't know. I do know there are several other ball python morphs that have deformaties but don't prevent them from being bred. Like the spider wobble, caramel kink, etc.
 
tbgnc22 said:
Just because an animal can't produce doesn't make it "gay".
Click to expand...

The term "Gay" in this post was meant to be Metaphor for humorous purposes. :)

So what you're saying is that inbreeding is a cause for these so called "Gay" snakes? Ie: line breeding/inbreeding....

What other BP's are prone to this?
 
Your attempt at humor failed, and your choice of terminology is generally considered derogatory...putting it in quotes doesn't help. I'm sure you can manage to make your point without continuing to :shootfoot
 
hhmoore said:
Your attempt at humor failed, and your choice of terminology is generally considered derogatory...putting it in quotes doesn't help. I'm sure you can manage to make your point without continuing to :shootfoot
Click to expand...

I don't consider the word "Gay" to be derogatory in any way shape or form. Maybe in your mind, my expression failed, so be it! You aren't adding anything to the discussion except your view of me using a word that maybe you don't like!

I would hope there are other individuals with a sense of humor, (obviously different from yours) that can get past the blatant obvious wording of my post and respond in-kind.

So I just say this if you don't have anything to add to the discussion of my actual post and are offended by my use of the word "GAY" Maybe you shouldn't participate in this little ole thread! It's really easy to do....just ignore it! It doesn't get much easier than that!

Or is this forum run by mod's that only let people participate, if they only use words they approve of? Am I breaking a Fauna rules? I guess if you ban me you could get your point across. But then again my original thread about "What Morph's Can and Cannot Produce offspring" would never really be answered.... I guess you could move me into the "General BS forum" or "Just For Laughs" or would I still be scrutinized for using the word "GAY" in a thread?

Humorlessness people that can't offer insight into the real topic need not respond! It's that simple!

So with that in mind, what other Morph's don't produce yet? And why? Why would a color "Morph" keep an animal from being able to produce?
 
Am I breaking a Fauna rules
Click to expand...
Let's see... 1) antagonizing a moderator
Guess I don't need to count beyond that one.

Here's your chance to show a little common sense - blow it, and you're gone for a few days.
 
tbgnc22 said:
Constant line breeding and inbred animals tend to develop issues. Such as the desert females. Its not the color morph that makes it not viable. There is something internal that prevents it from producing viable eggs. The end result is either death to the snake or she slugs out.
Click to expand...

The developmental issues in desert females has nothing to do with inbreeding or line breeding. You could have the most outcrossed, genetically strong desert female in the world yet she will still have a constricted oviduct, making it impossible for her to lay fertile eggs. Desert females DO produce viable eggs... however, they must be surgically removed. This defect is tied to the gene, just like spider/woma wobble in ball pythons or enigma circling in leopard geckos are tied to those genes.

Egg bound desert female surgery and discussion: http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=333250&highlight=desert+female+eggs

Shortly after that thread, most sellers began openly admitting that desert females were for pets only.
 
snowgyre said:
The developmental issues in desert females has nothing to do with inbreeding or line breeding. You could have the most outcrossed, genetically strong desert female in the world yet she will still have a constricted oviduct, making it impossible for her to lay fertile eggs. Desert females DO produce viable eggs... however, they must be surgically removed. This defect is tied to the gene, just like spider/woma wobble in ball pythons or enigma circling in leopard geckos are tied to those genes.

Egg bound desert female surgery and discussion: http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=333250&highlight=desert+female+eggs

Shortly after that thread, most sellers began openly admitting that desert females were for pets only.
Click to expand...

When I spoke of inbreeding and such it was merely to point out the genetic flaws that can occur because of it. I should have separated the two statements from each other. I did however point out that the desert female issues have nothing to do with a color morph. It's strictly an internal issue that plagues them and was an issue that occurred in the wild when the first one was imported here. It had nothing to do with breeding this snake. Some combos have issues that arise from this type of breeding process. I am also aware that they have covered the desert gene with multiple other genes and she still hasn't "laid" a viable clutch. Perhaps I should have stated the word "laid" instead. You could have left out the surgical removal stand point because the person that started this thread is an idiot. He comes off as the type that would risk a snakes health and well being just to do something that stupid. It's why I didn't mention anything about that and left it as it was. Some people are better off without certain pieces of knowledge.
 
BillZ said:
is it also true that any female offspring from a combo that one parent was a desert or desert combo morph will also not produce (surgically removed aside)?
Click to expand...

As far as I understand it, any desert pairing that produces a female offspring can reproduce just fine provided she doesn't carry the desert gene. So basically if you breed a desert enchi x normal and produce an enchi female then she can successfully breed. Since she obviously isn't a desert female. Hope this helps
 
BillZ said:
That was exactly what I meant and exactly what I left out of my questions. I was so concerned that I made it clear that the parents somehow had desert in them that I forgot to make it clear that I meant any female offspring That had desert in them. Sad to say I read it twice to be sure.

Thanks for the response, and for making clear what I failed to.
Click to expand...

Anytime! Glad I could help
 
The one thing that stuck out to me that the OP didnt understand (besides ignorance of the world and common sense) is they thought that a color morph "isn't" a mutation. The colors and patterns in ball pythons are mutated genes that express themselves, and sometimes (as seen in Deserts) other physiological mutations happen as well. A few other mutations also have neurological issues (spiders), physical issues (kinking Caramels, and Super Cinni duckbills), and FTT (Failure To Thrive) issues upon birth or while still in incubation. My recommendation is to fully research on your own any morph you are interested in, because IMO it is no ones responsibility to let you know certain specifics about a morph besides yourself. Hope this helps.
 
Dbz4246 said:
The one thing that stuck out to me that the OP didnt understand (besides ignorance of the world and common sense) is they thought that a color morph "isn't" a mutation.
Click to expand...

Well at the time I asked the question I guess I really didn't know.....that's why I was asking about it. I have since received very good info from people who didn't want to post in a open thread. I didn't have a starting point to go forward, that's why I posted in the first place.

As for being ignorant and lack of common sense, I'm truly sorry if my gay snake wording upset you or anyone else. I meant it to be funny, being slapped taught me differently. Or even lack of knowledge of morph mutations. Sorry!

I appreciate the people that responded and actually helped me with this.
 
Austin-12 said:
Well at the time I asked the question I guess I really didn't know.....that's why I was asking about it. I have since received very good info from people who didn't want to post in a open thread. I didn't have a starting point to go forward, that's why I posted in the first place.

As for being ignorant and lack of common sense, I'm truly sorry if my gay snake wording upset you or anyone else. I meant it to be funny, being slapped taught me differently. Or even lack of knowledge of morph mutations. Sorry!

I appreciate the people that responded and actually helped me with this.
Click to expand...

So why wouldn't people want to discuss such topics here in an open thread?

Is there something lacking in the Ball Pythons Discussion Forum (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=244) on this site that would inhibit such talk?
 
WebSlave said:
So why wouldn't people want to discuss such topics here in an open thread?

Is there something lacking in the Ball Pythons Discussion Forum (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=244) on this site that would inhibit such talk?
Click to expand...


Well I really don't know their reasons for not posting openly.

I'd suspect maybe they didn't want to come off sounding as naive as I did! Maybe not wanting to open themselves up to ridicule from others that obviously know more or as it's been told to me, "you should know these things before you ever buy anything".

I'm sure the subject matter had been brought up before. I guess I didn't dig deep enough in the pages upon pages to find it. It was a spur of the moment thing that caught me, I just ran with it at the time.

IMO, people tend to shy away from a thread that has been tainted for what ever reason. Since postings are in "Stone" some care more than others what's out for all to see. But it's all good, I was pointed to previous threads on the subject and moved on from there.
 
WebSlave said:
So why wouldn't people want to discuss such topics here in an open thread?

Is there something lacking in the Ball Pythons Discussion Forum (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=244) on this site that would inhibit such talk?
Click to expand...

Honestly no one liked the OP's starting statements using the term "Gay". Once people saw that they stayed out of it because it shows a lack of class on the OP's part. Then after someone said something about the term, he pretty much continued throwing it around. If you want help that's great, but don't use terms unbecoming of the boards. Show a little respect and people tend to show it back.
 
Austin-12 said:
Why would a color "Morph" keep an animal from being able to produce? I just don't get it!
Click to expand...

Colour patterns aren't just paint jobs.

A colour morph indicates a failure of an animal to produce "normal" patterning and colouration for a genetic, biochemical reason. That failure could indicate OTHER failures to develop properly.

For example, an albino animal is failing to correctly produce melanin. Melanin isn't just present in the skin of an animal - it's also present in the eyes and other organs. So an animal that is lacking normal melanin in the eyes may have issues related to "eyes that are missing something that is part of a normal eyeball."

So, in the case of a Desert, it looks like something about whatever process breaks the colouration to produce a desert-looking animal is also breaking the code for working female reproductive organs - but, crucially, doesn't break how the male reproductive system works.
 
I must admit , I really new nothing of defects in any of the genetic lines. I bought a gorgeous female desert pinstripe in hopes of breading . Only to learn that she cant or to even try could harm her . Like life its a learning game . How ever a now have a very beautiful pet that will live out her days well taken care of .
I would like to thank the people who post helpful information because this helps those like me who don't know learn .
 
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