Bad Guy UnderGround Reptiles should stay underground

[bxjoon]

Lucille you beat me to it...I am also curious about this.

 

[predators]

Rian G, the owner comes from the old school of thought.- Blame it on the customer.. Its the customers fault because the temp was 2 degrees off, or the bedding wasnt correct or the lighting wasn't correct so on. If one wants too, fault can be found somewhere in the husbandry of every caged animal and he will find something and point it out and use that as his excuse not to replace or refund or make a situation right....His employees Ryan B. and others have learned from this.

However, they take no responsibilty for sending out a sick, underweight or parasite infested animal. Regardless of how the customer sets the animal up the animals is already behind the 8 ball because of its condition.
I bought 18 jacksons from them one time for a show. I received 17 females and 1 male. Ridiculous. As most people want the males because they have the horns. He offered me $2 off per jackson on the next order but, would not reverse the next order and send 17 males and 1 female so I would be even. So basicaly I was stuck with 17 non-sellable jacksons and he offered a $36.00 credit......... This is just one small issue out of many, but there is a very shady business going on there only being disguised by there youtube posts and name...

 

[Sweeneys Zoological]

When you buy from a breeder, they own the parent animals, gave them the perfect conditions so they are willing to breed, watched the babies hatched out of the egg and if they are smart they will give them several meals to make sure everything works. Then offer them for sale.

I have always been curious about the protocal that some companies use when they have hundreds of animals go through their shop every week.

 

[treeboa]

Rian G, the owner comes from the old school of thought.- Blame it on the customer.. Its the customers fault because the temp was 2 degrees off, or the bedding wasnt correct or the lighting wasn't correct so on. If one wants too, fault can be found somewhere in the husbandry of every caged animal and he will find something and point it out and use that as his excuse not to replace or refund or make a situation right....His employees Ryan B. and others have learned from this.

However, they take no responsibilty for sending out a sick, underweight or parasite infested animal. Regardless of how the customer sets the animal up the animals is already behind the 8 ball because of its condition.
I bought 18 jacksons from them one time for a show. I received 17 females and 1 male. Ridiculous. As most people want the males because they have the horns. He offered me $2 off per jackson on the next order but, would not reverse the next order and send 17 males and 1 female so I would be even. So basicaly I was stuck with 17 non-sellable jacksons and he offered a $36.00 credit......... This is just one small issue out of many, but there is a very shady business going on there only being disguised by there youtube posts and name...

You forgot the classic "You're trying to scam me!" accusation when they are backed in a corner. Dan Scolaro made that one famous, but it sounds like these guys use it too.

 

[LizardKing777]

My UG experience:

I have purchased two animals from them, a crested gecko and a pac-man frog. Both animals, although healthy now, were not so healthy at first. Not eating, not pooping, etc. After about a month, they were finally better after extreme pampering. My other animals,7 different ones purchased online and from another local reptile store, were always 100% fine when I got them, they did not need a month to recover.

In addition, I was told my gecko was growing fast and would be ready to breed in a few months. Nothing could have been further form the truth. I will not post the growth chart to add insult to injury, but I had to purchase another male and will be using the one I got from them for 2014 breeding.

The main reason I stopped frequenting their shop was because the husbandry there was so poor. Animals seemed overheated - is this to make them more active? Skinny animals and somewhat dirty cages . . . . not for me, especially with a competitor only a few blocks away. A silly video of theirs claiming evolution was not real was the nail in the coffin for me, although that has nothing to do with anything really on the BOI.

Sorry for the bad report, and no I have no proof. Just adding in my 2 cents on the BOI so people can at least be wary and cautious when they deal with UG.

 

[Lucille]

I asked about their health they said they were perfectly healthy, but failed to mention they both had rear foot injuries and the female was missing an eye. Seriously??? I asked about their length and they said they were a foot longer than actual.

The eye injury was a very old injury that had healed which Mr. Fluty knew about and was okay with. These animals were kept separately by a local friend of ours who had purchased them 5 years prior. Mr. Fluty knows the man and his contact info, which we provided him at his request so he could familiarize himself with how they were cared for. The issues with the bottom of the legs were also old scars that Mr. Fluty knew about but later tried saying they were open infections, for which he provided us with no veterinarian verification. He conveniently offered to forget about these scars if we send him $100
Ryan Borkan

So Ryan, can you please post either emails or the sales ad that detail these injuries to show that Joel knew about them, as well as the length of the advertised lizard?

Joel can you take a picture of your lizard against a tape measure to show actual length, and also please answer my previous question about the breeding length issue?

 

[reptilerenegade]

Joel can you take a picture of your lizard against a tape measure to show actual length, and also please answer my previous question about the breeding length issue?

Here is one of Undergrounds videos that has the male (13:15 into the video) that I bought. Just looking at this you can tell he is small. Also, I noted that the animal was being held with gloves, which really told me I was dealing with amatures concerning this species. Gloves are slippery and offer no protection from an animal like this. Unfortunately, I did not see this video until later.

The reason I say 6ft, is because that is usually the size of a male mature enough to breed. I use this size as a guage as it takes into account several factors. First, the male must be large enough to prove to the female that he is a confident male. Females will dominate and chase away advancing males smaller than themselves. Second, at about this length the male has sufficiently grown and developed sexual organs able to successfully reproduce with a female. This is based on my experience and reports of other breeders.

Please feel free to visit my website dedicated to crocodile monitors www.reptileranger.com

 

[reptilerenegade]

Here is Underground's video link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le3ofnJAO0c

 

[Lucille]

Joel, I could not tell the difference the difference between five feet and six feet by looking at the video. Please measure the critter and take a picture with the tape measure alongside.
So at five years old, it may very well be that this lizard is perfectly adequate as a breeder.
It seems as if you have come to conclusions about its length without measuring, and to its possible breeding performance without attempting to breed it.
I have no horse in this race and you might be right, but if you are saying that there is a critical difference between five feet and six feet, it would be good to provide an objective measurement to back up your claim that the critter is undersized.

 

[Skanakis]

wow. I have bought snakes and lizards from UG. Never had an issue. Just stating my experience. I do agree that i have seen alot of bad boi. The one diamond/jungle i did get from them...is a stunner. Eating and growing and really showing its colors. Just adding this in.

 

[horridumangeli]

Hi everyone, I have been in this industry for many years. Ryan Gittman is one of the most honest and best Men that i know. I have done several transactions with him over the years and have never had a problem. His business practices are solid. I would greatly scrutinize any negative comments about him or his business.
Thank you,
Steve Angeli www.Helodermahorridum.com

 

[treeboa]

Steve, I great respect your opinions, however in this case I'm not sure. What about the condition of the animals in the pics? What about the pattern of blaming the buyer for the condition of the animals when they complain? What about the pattern of crying scam when the buyer doesn't accept the blame? What about the many different people on this thread and others, that live near Underground and say they've been there and the conditions are poor? Are they all lying? As I said the blame the buyer and cries of scam are very familiar to others with bad business practices like Dan Scolaro. The whole length of the animal thing has two sides. I've gotten many animals from many different places that where noticeably bigger or smaller than advertised. It's pretty common and not really indicative of a scam. However, if I contact someone and specifically say that size, maturity is important for my decision to purchase, especially for $1800, I expect the seller to pull out a tape measure if they have to to be sure of the animals size. Again, poor business.

 

[hallowedone]

I am not sure about these monitors but with ball pythons and boas, just because they are of the breeding age does not mean they are breeding size. You wouldnt breed a male ball at 2 or 300 grams even if he was 5 years old. Might be unsafe for the animal. Just something to think about.

 

[Lucille]

I expect the seller to pull out a tape measure if they have to to be sure of the animals size.

Until the buyer pulls out a tape measure and shows the actual size, we don't know how big this critter really is.
Again, I have no stake in the outcome, but there is quite a bit of talk about size and how it is crucial, without the actual size being shown.

 

[treeboa]

I'm normally not one to complain, but I feel this should be said about the way Underground Reptiles does business. I recently purchased 2 crocodile monitors from them for my breeding project.

I asked about their health they said they were perfectly healthy, but failed to mention they both had rear foot injuries and the female was missing an eye. Seriously??? I asked about their length and they said they were a foot longer than actual. They couldn't tell me anything about their history,but failed to mention that the crocs originally came from them over five years ago.

I called the owner about the issues and he offered to take them back, but I couldn't bring myself to let these animals go back to irresponsible people that knew nothing of these animals care. The facility is nasty to say the least. I told the owner I was taking them to the vet and he immediately went defensive (as does his employees)and accused me of trying to rip him off. I didn't even mention money, just explaining that I was getting them care. Part of the deal was that I would be put in contact with the previous owner, which fortunately, happened.

I wish I would have some research before buying from these people. I encourage anyone to do the same with anyone. Take into consideration bad reviews before making that purchase.

I'm surprised no one brought this up, but rereading this original post brings up the point that as far as being out money, the OP gave up his right to complain about that. He offered to take the animals back. I understand the concern for the animal's welfare. But the condition of this animal and the frog in a later post is indisputable. At some point you have to take responsibility for the health of the stock you sell, both cb and wc. You can't just send out animals that are sick, deformed, and mite infested and then just deal with the people that do complain. Other places sometimes sell stock missing toes or slightly kinked backs, but they re old injuries, labeled as imperfect, and sold at a deep discount. I know no proof was offered either way about the defects in this croc monitor being disclosed up front, but realistically would anyone buy this animal for $1800 knowing about its condition ahead of time? I could see maybe if it was discounted seriously, like down to $500.

 

[Lucille]

realistically would anyone buy this animal for $1800 knowing about its condition ahead of time?

That might depend on how uncommon these lizards are and whether the injuries which were allegedly healed and old would interfere with breeding which is why they were purchased.

I recently purchased 2 crocodile monitors from them for my breeding project.

There's been no proof forthcoming on the issue of length. That silence speaks, since it seems as if a tape measure and picture would be a relatively easy and objective way to back up claims by the OP of being undersize.

 

[jhreptiles1]

I have bought from ugr a decent amount of animals off there wholesale list and had no issues. Animals looked good and healthy and did well. I don't believe UGR imports I do know they buy from importers but that doesnt mean they dont take care of there animals or have poor quality animals. I am a importer and some of the best animals I've seen were imported and don't forget we wouldnt have the animals we have today if people didnt import. Even your family dog is a decent of a dog that was brang here at some point and time.

 

[treeboa]

I have bought from ugr a decent amount of animals off there wholesale list and had no issues. Animals looked good and healthy and did well. I don't believe UGR imports I do know they buy from importers but that doesnt mean they dont take care of there animals or have poor quality animals. I am a importer and some of the best animals I've seen were imported and don't forget we wouldnt have the animals we have today if people didnt import. Even your family dog is a decent of a dog that was brang here at some point and time.

This is true. The thing is some importers are known for healthy animals treated and housed properly, Bushmaster comes to mind and some are known for skinny, sick, or injured animals piled into crowded, dirty cages. In other threads Strictly and Bushmaster were both mentioned as suppliers of Underground. This could very well explain why some imports people get from them are nice and some have problems.

 

[kurt decker]

kurt d.

Bad guy? Really? I think bad guy ends the minute somebody offers to refund your money. Filthy store? I've been an underground every month for probably the last 10 years. I don't know that I've ever seen a cleaner shop. There are always two or three employees cleaning cages at all times. When you have several hundred reptiles in a store it's a big job to keep it clean and they do it. Bravo. So there is a half dozen complaints on the Boi? On most days they are putting up 40 or 50 shipments. I hate it when something doesn't go perfectly, but it does happen and can usually be fixed. I have never seen these guys not try to fix it. I don't know what happened here, I'm not part of this deal. But I have never seen anyone at underground intentionally misrepresent anything.

 

[Fangthane]

I have never seen these guys not try to fix it.

If that's true, you've either made it a point not to look; or you have a very liberal definition of what it means to "try".