Bad Guy Undercurrent Imports Bob Occhifinto

[Sloop John B]

I purchased a green tree python from Bob Occhifinto at Undercurrent Imports. He informed me that it had no health problems, had been in his collection for 2 years, and he had no mites at his facility. Three weeks after arriving in my home the animal I purchased from him exploded into a heavy mite infestation. I called by phone and sent an e-mail to Bob Occhifinto to discuss the situation with him. He did not answer either (prior to the sale, he had answered e-mails diligently). I waited several days and called his place of business. He did talk to me at that time, and he strongly denied the possibility that his snake caused the infestation.
I have a nearly closed collection of snakes, had no new snakes brought into my home in the 6 months prior to receiving this animal. I feed only frozen thawed, had not attended any reptile shows in the 6 months prior, and use only laboratory grade bleached wood pulp as the substrate.
I am pretty certain the green tree python I received from Bob Occhifinto was the cause of the mite infestation.

 

[morph evolution]

john,do you have photos of gtp from bob?photos of the infestation and all emails leading up to the transaction start to finish?

 

[Johnny]

Bob at Undercurrent Imports

i can't speak for this specific situation but i've know bob for quite a while. as stated, he has had almost all of his current collection for over two years without any imported animals coming in. he is also one of the largest and original breeders of dominican red mountain boas. i have been to his immense animal breeding facility and it is immaculate. he does extremely well in his other non animal business and has 3-4 full time employees exclusively taking care of his pets. i received 3 of his red mountain boas and not only are they extremely healthy but are some of the brightest red mountain boas i've seen. hopefully, you can talk it out with him and work something out.

 

[REDhead]

I also purchased 2yearstateside GTP from BOB and mine were also mite infested. Lucky for me I quarantine everything new, and was able to handle the problem. bob had the same response for me. There is no doubt in my mind that Bob has mites in his collection. Nobody needs proof of anything, it's an obvious situation. That said, the snakes I received were as advertised and pricing was appropriate.
Any buyer of imported snake should know that will likely come with issues. If you don't want the issues then your best purchasing USCB animals. I knew the risk I was taking and others should be aware as well.

 

[NIGRO51]

I have a nearly closed collection of snakes, had no new snakes brought into my home in the 6 months prior to receiving this animal. I feed only frozen thawed, had not attended any reptile shows in the 6 months prior, and use only laboratory grade bleached wood pulp as the substrate.
I am pretty certain the green tree python I received from Bob Occhifinto was the cause of the mite infestation.

I am not taking any sides here but you definitely need quarantine. Lucky for you it was just mites.

 

[deadliesthatch]

I purchased a small group of Boa constrictor constrictor from them a few years ago. When they came in the animals were crawling with mites. I eradicated them quickly and treated my entire collection just because. The animals they sent, the boas not the mites, were and are very nice but I refuse to ever do business with a company that sends out that kind of stuff. Especially if they supposedly have a "closed" collection. I will only do business that way once before I have learned the lesson.

 

[Sloop John B]

Lucky for you it was just mites.

More than mites...she was riddled internal parasites. My vet, who is a reptile specialist, said he had never seen so many on a stool prep. He let me look under the microscope, there were "wall-to-wall" flagellated protozoans. Also, two other previously healthy snakes in my collection came down with strange infections that eventually killed them...one respiratory and one a mouth infection. Since my collection had been "closed" prior to receiving this snake from Bob Occhifinto, we believe she brought in some unusual pathogens as well.

 

[Magic]

I hope you're able to get everything under control, as quickly as possible. I do agree that you REALLY need quarantine. Every single GTP I have ever purchased was long term captive and I've done the internal parasite route. Quarantine is a must. I don't know the seller or his TOS, but there are sellers who do have a quarantine clause. I do in mine, even though I rarely sell now that I'm married and have a baby. I've never ever had a problem, but a little CYA on both ends is a good thing.

It's not exactly nice to blame a seller (any seller) for your other snakes getting sick since you didn't quarantine. Not saying the mites didn't come from him, but IMHO a lot of your grief sounds like it could have been limited should you have quarantined. It's not hard to really pinpoint mites coming from a new introduction if the animal is 100% in quarantine from the moment it's unboxed. I don't know any seller that would argue if you proved the snake was in quarantine and you discovered mites.

 

[Sloop John B]

I have kept pythons for several decades and never encountered a problem like this. I did have the snake in quarantine but took her out early as she wasn't eating and I was concerned. I thought she might do better in my snake room as it is more secluded from daily people traffic. My collection was closed...no new animals in for over 6 months. I feed only frozen thawed rodents. I did make the mistake of taking her out of quarantine early, but my biggest mistake was believing Bob Occhifinto's word that the snake was not a recent import, but had been in his private collection for 2 years and was healthy.

 

[wcstegmd]

John

So sorry to hear about this- I know you keep your room immaculate.
Thanks for the heads-up. There are very few sources I'd not quarantine a new animal from- you would be one of them.

bill stegall M.D.
phoenix reptiles

 

[MikeCurtin]

John, I'm sorry to hear you had to deal with this.

Bill & John, you both have some very nice collections and excellent husbandry, which is evidenced by your success. I would, however, like to draw attention to the fact that you, Bill, would not feel the need to quarantine an animal from John. Seeing how quickly his collection was affected by one error in judgment, shows why it is so important to quarantine regardless of where new acquisitions are from. If you had received an animal from him prior to his knowledge of what was about to transpire in his snake room, there would be another collection affected.

 

[[email protected]]

I've purchased my Dominican red mtn boas from bob o there the best I've seen , he introduced Dominicans along with Tom to herpetoculture, bob has always been completely honest and very fair with all of the ppl I work with ( his froends$ and myself, that's to bad u had that experience but I doubt it was undercurrents wrong doing , there 100% legit

 

[dhaisten]

Any imported/farmed/ltc/etc. green tree python should be quarantined for a minimum of one year. Period. Even then, you cannot be sure that the animal is not asymptomatic for PMV or an unknown boid/squamate virus. I have done repeat fecals on an imported Aru chondropython and had things show up over a year later. I'm talking over 10 fecals. Expelled pentastomids onto the glass at 5 months. The animal gained weight, looked healthy, and as far as the rest of my collection was concerned may as well have had ebola.

The problem with "LTC" is that the majority of people that procure and maintain imported green tree pythons are donkeyragers.

An imported green tree python will be loaded with endoparasites. Period.

These can include things that cannot be eradicated such as pentastomids (zoonotic parasite), haemogregarians, and possibly things that can be eradicated but can potentially kill the snake when treated such as filarial nematodes and mesenteric strongyoides. And this is just what I have experienced/know. There is so much more out there that I do not know/have not experienced. Learning more and more as time goes on.

A loaded slide under the microscope is the fun of getting an import. This is why I own everything I need to look for gastrointestinal beasties in imported chondros.

There is no cutting corners here though, bloodwork is required to identify other things, and some things never show up until necropsy (mesenteric strongyloides).

So, the majority of people are clueless, and "farmed" chondros come up for sale all of the time. There is no such thing as a farmed chondro other than neonates produced by Bushmaster. The rest are illegally taken from the wild, sometimes under the guise of a "farm", many die on their long journey to here, Europe, where have you, to end up in collections where their parasite loads that were potentially in equilibrium in nature become deleterious in captivity. And yes, a virus is a parasite.

If someone is not obtaining specific localities (if such a thing can be obtained) for production in captivity to eliminate the need to purchase similar animals that are wild caught, this is an expensive venture in the long term that can compromise your entire collection. There are ethical issues here as well.

I myself will likely obtain some WC animals in the future, knowing all of this, specifically for the fact that I do not like the current focus of green tree python breeding in this country with is "designers" aka straight up mutts. That being said, it is virtually impossible to know that the animals that one is getting are indeed locality animals, although phenotypic matches can be more or less obtained. Even with respect to Aru chondropythons, the Aru islands are an archipelago and many sub-localities potentially/very likely exist.

There are so many cbb animals that are generally problem free (with the exception of bacterial R.I.s or a latent virus from someones collection) there is absolutely no reason to "get a deal" on a green tree python from dubious sources, unless one is specifically obtaining animals for working with localities.

Many people will disagree with these statements and would like to throw rotten vegetables at me, but my reply to them would swiftly make me banned on this website.

From the sounds of things, your green tree python introduced a virus into your collection, and I hope that the necessary diagnostics/analyses were ran upon the deceased animals to find the etiological agent(s). That being said, it is possible that a closed collection harbors a specific bacterial population and introduced animals can bring in bacteria that the closed population is unaccustomed to. Or vice versa.

Nonetheless, a virus is suspect. Something known, such as PMV, would be a good first thing to look for. But this is just what is known. More is unknown.

Also unknown is transmission ease.

If it were me, that green tree python would be in an entirely different room on a permanent basis, as in for life. Especially since it likely is harboring a virus (or nasty bacteria?).

I expect any and all green tree pythons that are not cbb from a reputable source to be a fun project and teach me more on all the different parasites and ailments that might be present in the wild. In several cases I have obtained actual farmed neonates and these were a very boring project because there was nothing to look for. Bummer.

As for the seller, I do not care if he has Dominican Red Flying Monkeys, mite factory. Mites are AWESOME, because they potentially spread IBD and blood borne parasites (e.g. filarial nematodes, haemogregarians, etc). Typical flipper (Mama said always dump horse wormer and crush up flagyl for your snakes, we treated it- uh....ok) Case closed.

One last thing, green tree pythons are marketed as "just meet their needs and conditions and they are easily maintained". Not true. Somewhat so for cbb animals, but buyer beware, and experts only. Some breeders lose cbb animals during the breeding season on a regular basis throughout the country, but this is kept on the DL. Constant learning curve. Other than the fact that they are easily THE most beautiful python species, the challenge of maintaining them and the joy of watching them wiggle their tail at you when they are hungry is the joy of chondros.

 

[[email protected]]

Ya chondro a are cool but that's not what I'm in the game for icworkcwitg insular Epicrates wi boas, those in my opinion are way sicker than chondros, Dominicans u obviously DNt know much about cuz that flying monkey comment was dumb , chondros don't change color multiple times throughout the day and constantly change throughout there life continuing to Get brighter and more vibrant as time goes on, West Indies boas are much more rare, much more unique and much less trendy than chondros and each isle local has its own individual pattern and husbandry, not for any but the experts also, and ya I get what ur sayin bout that sounds like WC Chondros ain't even worth F@$#€n wit cuz they carry lots of bugs and its not the fault of the person your gettin them from always to. Know every single solitary type of parasites out there cuz u said there were tons u don't know bout even yourself, how is someone your gettin them from supposed to kno if they don't exhibit the signs externally and they keep growin n all that like u said , especially if they don't work specifically with chondros, most ppl wouldn't think to give tem five types of fecal"s noir think its essential when there appearing to be quite healthy ?

 

[dhaisten]

Being asymptomatic for an ophidian virus is not unique to M. viridis. IBD is synonymous with B. constrictor constrictor. Any snake from the tropics is going to be carrying a pretty heavy parasite burden. It would be interesting to see if, on average, different biomes are more likely to support greater parasite populations in organisms than others. Just the roll of the dice for what has what. All wild animals harbor parasites to varying degree, or in some rare cases not?
In some parts of the world that would definitely include humans.

Have to talk to a parasitologist on these points. That is their field.

It seems you have gotten my point, some vendors should not play with chondros, and participating in the illegally collected green tree python trade just kind of sucks.

Mites are mites. They are a disease vector. Pretty obvious to detect them, and pretty easy to eliminate them if you are not afraid of doing some hard work for several weeks.

 

[Kristi23]

I've purchased my Dominican red mtn boas from bob o there the best I've seen , he introduced Dominicans along with Tom to herpetoculture, bob has always been completely honest and very fair with all of the ppl I work with ( his froends$ and myself, that's to bad u had that experience but I doubt it was undercurrents wrong doing , there 100% legit

There is obviously an issue when three different people received animals with mites.

 

[[email protected]]

I feel ya on that bob ochiflinto is an immaculate snake keeper he also owns a pharmaceutical company so his employees handle most his stuff its kinda hard to tell if something has internal parasites when it displays no signs if u no that they can also remain dormant without signs for years and also all the big names in this field know bob n deal with him on a regular basis these are ppl that have been in the business for years. Do sometimes when a customer isn't satisfied its not always the fault of the original source

 

[treeboa]

I feel ya on that bob ochiflinto is an immaculate snake keeper he also owns a pharmaceutical company so his employees handle most his stuff its kinda hard to tell if something has internal parasites when it displays no signs if u no that they can also remain dormant without signs for years and also all the big names in this field know bob n deal with him on a regular basis these are ppl that have been in the business for years. Do sometimes when a customer isn't satisfied its not always the fault of the original source

Don't buy the blame the employee tactic. Bob owns the place, everything his employees do is his responsibility. Brian has done a lot for the industry too, but when a BHB employee sent out a Ball python with an obvious kink no one here cut him any slack. Why should we in this case either? Along those same lines, we cut BHB no slack for sending out snakes with mites either. Yes mites happen in large collections, but you get them under control and don't pass you're problem on to customers. Yes a snake or two with mites can slip out before you realize a problem, but when it happens over a period of time it's not acceptable.

 

[dhaisten]

Yo Erik, just an FYI, I am fully aware of Dominican Red Mountain Boas and of the endangered status of West Indian boas. As island species they probably were present in low densities prior to human population explosions on those islands.

I have not looked at the website of Crutchfield and Bob for a long time, as I really wasn't going for their sales pitch in the past. I do not like animals that are rare or endangered being marketed as "a good investment" or "great pets". But I guess different strokes for different folks.

I found similar issues with this individual flipping mite ridden imported chondros to other people other than the OP of this thread. It does look like his business was importation of fish and reptile species from all over the globe in the 80s. As a student of Evolutionary Biology/Conservation genetics you might gather that I am not impressed in the least.
I especially loathe the mentality of finding rare species to raise or sell them for profit.
Granted, some animals should be captive produced should they go extinct in the wild. But actions should be taken to ensure that does not happen in the first place if the endangered status is due to humans. Attempts to captive breed different critters and re-release them does not seem to work in a few attempted cases. Different selection regimes in captivity versus the wild.

Basically it looks like this individual, Bob, grabbed the boas when he had business there, and brought them back here.

Clearly pictured on their website are neonates eating lizards, when they refuse mice, to get them started. Anoles, geckos, etc. will introduce pathogens. Typical 1970s and 80s snake keeping mentality. I remember, because I was there.

Take a look, but do not think too long and hard about it. Should already be obvious what sort of problems this could develop- see "feeding babies" below:
http://www.dominicanredmountainboa.com/captivehusbandry.html#7

There is no mention of whether or not these lizards are pathogen free and cbb at their facility for food. Big no no.

I think buyers should be made fully aware when they purchase one of these boas that the animal was started on lizards so that they can begin to look for all of the parasites that will be transferred by reptilian prey.

The majority of the snakes that I keep start on lizards as well. This is why babies are such a pain in the but. The easy road would be to toss them a live lizard. I cannot do that. People that fed their CA mountain kingsnakes wild collected Sceloporus wiped out their collection from a virus present in the lizards. This is an extreme case, but can be found by referencing the literature.

I also noticed that his story for selling chondros has been "its been in my collection for two years" and yet when people have been asking him for the locality that was in his collection for two years, he has said in the past that he is out/does not have any. Suddenly another one pops up for sale that has "been in the collection for two years." This was made evident on Morelia viridis forum and the cat was let out of the bag.

I already know the mentality of these types of individuals and there is nothing to idolize.

Given my field of interest it would be safe to assume that I make it my business to know as much as I possibly can about squamate reptiles in specific and in general.

I would not have bothered replying to this thread if I would have looked at the date of the original post and replies-I did not notice that the year was 2012-you necro-referenced an old issue.

And I have never noticed "Bob" selling chondros online. I don't really pay attention to obviously wild caught chondros in classified ads other than how bad the condition they are in looks and how the seller obviously is nowhere near close in their locality designation.

I am fully aware of DMRMB and I like them very much. It is sad what could be their fate in the near future.

I hope that you have had the boas you keep checked for parasites since you probably have no idea whether or not they were started on lizards or mice. Getting rid of parasites, as long as the eradication will not be harmful, is the kind thing to do for any animal kept as a "pet" or otherwise.