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Inquiry LLL Reptile and Sending Sick Animals

D

dmagick2012

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Hello my name is dennisio and i was wondering if anyone else has had an issue with LLL Reptile and Supply Co sending them sick and dying animals.

My Problem:

On October 21st i placed a pretty large order with LLL Reptile totaling out to $1200 on 4 animals and supplies to care for them. The animals i ordered from them were 2 baby veiled chameleons (male and female) and 2 baby red eyed tree frogs. One frog arrived dead and the other died a week later and they only credited me for one frog about $20. Within 3 weeks the baby male chameleon died. From the day he arrived i noticed that he always had his eyes closed was sort of lethargic but was eating and drinking like he should have been but after the second week until he died he constantly had his eyes closed, was really lethargic and not eating or drinking at all, waking blind eyed and falling around the large cage that i kept them both in. Whereas my female chameleon i got from them at the same time is still alive and very healthy and has a voracious appetite. Now i figured that the male dying was probally not thier fault until i ordered a second male veiled chameleon and a pair of adult leopard geckos on December 31 and being that the first was a holiday they shipped them out on the 2nd and they arrived on the 3rd. same as before the baby male arrived the same way the last male did except he is not eating and drinks very little. now because i know he is sick i chose not to put him in the large screened cage with my female and i put him in an extra large kritter keeper where he has plenty of room so that i could monitor him closely until the new screen cage for him gets here on Friday. But he seems to be getting worse each day. Now i have contacted them on a few separate occasions about this and they give me the same reply that he is dehydrated and living in improper conditions and cant be thier fault cause none of thier animals are acting like that yet this how he arrived. as for my 2 adult Leopard geckos the female looks under weight and neither of them are eating or drinking much and sleep constantly yet this how they arrived to me since i got them i have had to give them both assisted feedings and i treated them for impaction and i have them both in a 10 gallon terrarium with temps reaching 90 degrees on the hot side and about 80 on the cool side with 2 hides and a water dish and no substrate except paper towels for easy cleaning. I have decided to only order supplies and feeders from this company but i will go get my herps from somewhere else because of the issues im having with them.

so i ask again who else has had issues with this company sending people sick and possibly dying animals.
 
Retrospect the the Chams and red eye frogs you ordered are not all that hardy and stress very easy. It happens more times then it should when shipping them arriving DOA or dieing days to weeks later due to the stress.


But it would help a lot of us if you would do a BIG run down list of all your setups and pics of each in the forums so we can evaluate it better and visually see it.

Can post it here-http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=609
 
LLL cares about their money over their animals as can be said for any big supplier I'm sure. They are one of the only tables that won't budge on prices at reptile conventions/shows. If you want quality reptiles, always go for a smaller breeder. No pet shop, no chain/corporate stores, and no big reptile/supply companies.
 
I agree with you this is why i wanted to see who else this happened to. I my self have owned several reptiles in the past such as Chinese Water Dragons, Iguanas, Green Anoles, and even some invertebrates such as Mexican red hair Tarantulas and Black Asian Forest Scorpions and after years of research and raising of the reptiles above i chose to Buy some new reptiles and amphibians and become a small breeder my self to sell people quality animals over those that come from pet shops and large business breeders and i have chose not to buy animals from this company ever again and will try to find more experienced breeders who really care about the animal over the money even though the animals may be more expensive i know ill be getting the best animals
 
Budging on prices at shows is irrelevant.

Plenty of smaller breeders have poor offerings. While there are smaller breeders that have high quality offerings, that is neither guaranteed nor causal.

$1200 on two veiled chameleons, two red eyed treefrogs, and setups is an interesting amount.
 
I should add I have ordered from them multiple times in the past and have always received robust animals. They have also been responsive to my feedback on the sexes of certain animals.
 
If someone offers you five dollars less than your asking price on a $95 dollar animal, And you decline, that says something about your business model. They aren't in it for their customers or the animals.
 
Double B Reptiles said:
If someone offers you five dollars less than your asking price on a $95 dollar animal, And you decline, that says something about your business model. They aren't in it for their customers or the animals.
Click to expand...

If a business can afford to wait and make the extra ~5.3% and I sell all of my stock in a timely manner, then yes, it does say something about the business model. It says it is constructed wisely enough not to sacrifice ~5.3% for no needed reason.

If a customer cannot or is not willing to pay the ~5.3%, that also might say something about his/her budgetary limits or inclinations as it pertains to available disposable income.

A business exists to be profitable. Providing a product or service matching the need of a customer for what a customer is willing to pay is a wonderful way to achieve that. Just because it does not fit one customer's price expectations is irrelevant if demand matches or exceeds supply such that all available units are sold.

This has no bearing on being in it for the animals or whatever else.
 
I can't say they didn't send you sick animals, but I can say that you ordered some delicate animals without having setups ready. Both chams and red-eyes can be extremely stressed from shipping, and can go downhill quickly if their needs are not immediately met. I agree with the others; can we see your setups, and how did you rack up that large bill for 4 relatively inexpensive animals and supplies?
Did you have proper UV on the chams? The Leos had a 90 to 80 temp gradient--where did they cool off?

Noelle
 
Hi Dennis....I just wanted to mention that you are about 2-3 hours away from the Pittsburgh [ Cheswick ] and Steel City [ Washington Pa. ] reptile expos. If you had the time to travel, both shows almost always have 1-2 chameleon vendors as well as all supplies you'd need, including feeder insects. Just check the vendor list + call before to be sure.
 
Yes the animals were relatively inexpensive being that i paid $75 for the pair of chameleons and for $40 for the frogs but i can guarantee you that the supplies do rack up in price especially when you order some of the vitamins and other supplements and well as commercial gut loads and drink cubes in bulk and you by an expensive Zoo Med 24 inch Slider Hood that is priced at $140 and i spent this 1200 in total and that includes the 250 i paid for overnight shipping i bought alot so i do not run out of supplements vitamins and gut loads and drink cubes for about 6 months so I don't have to keep racking up a bill each month. As for me getting these animals without setup being ready i had everything shipped overnight with the animals and it took me maybe an hour to set up both the 10 gallon tank for the frogs and the cage for both chameleons and if arrival conditions on my behalf were a problem why is it that the female chameleon from that first pair is alive and healthy and the male died a few weeks after i got him? answer because he was sick on arrival. as for the cooling down in the geckos tank all the heat comes from a heat bad on the right side of the tank where the box hide is located and and the other side of the tank is cooler with a water dish big enough and deep enough for them to take a dip in if they choose to do so without drowning them as its about a half inch deep. i also monitor the temps in both the chameleon cage and the gecko tank very closely and if its to hot i unplug the heating pad till it cools down to the temperature they are supposed to be at for the animals. and yes i provide proper UVB for the chams as i have an Exo Terra 18" Repti Glo 5.0 UVB Bulb, 2 Zoo Med Compact Fluorescent 5.0 UVB Bulbs one in the Zoo Med 24 inch Slider Hood with the 18" UVB bulb and red heat bulb and the other is in a lamp fixture next to the cage, and a Zoo Med 60 watt red bulb that is on 24 hours a day. so yes i would say i have plenty of UVB for the chams. As for the geckos i do provide a Zoo Med 50 watt basking bulb on the same side as the heat pad but i only use the heat pad at night during the day the bulb is on. as for the traveling to Pittsburgh i am planning to head down that way this summer with my daughter to take her to Kennywood and the Pittsburgh Zoo when i get her for the summer so maybe ill stop by one of the shows if they are available
 
Thanks to who pointed this thread out to us. I can't stress enough how I, and all of us at LLL care a great deal about not only our customers, but our animals as well. It is funny to see someone say that we don't. What an ignorant statement. We have 30 employees here who dedicate their time to customer service and care of the animals first and foremost. All of us keep reptiles ourselves at home. Love the hobby, love the business, love the animals. The owner personally is hands on with packing every single animal order sent out, attends most every reptile show himself personally, and as many know, we donate our time and efforts to education locally with herp meetings in our stores, going to local schools, libraries, scouts, etc, and to USARK as well. I would be willing to bet that even the OP would say that the girls he spoke with gave great customer service, considering how poorly he has / had the animals set up.

So - let's move onto that. Dennis (OP). I didn't speak with you. You spoke with Kate and Erin, both of whom told you what I will tell you again now. You can NOT keep baby veiled chameleons in a kritter keeper, nor 2 adult leopard geckos in a 10 gallon tank. I can't tell you how much this irritates me to hear. It is horrible for the chameleon, and causes immediate health issues in a matter of hours, literally. Baby veiled chameleons require a very hot basking spot. How can you possibly achieve this, and have a gradient temperature, in a critter keeper? You literally can't. Why would you do this when you knew from your prior chameleons that they had to be in a tall screen cage, or at the very least a very tall terrarium, with proper UVB, proper heat, etc? I don't even know what to say. If you posted this on chameleonforums, people would be yelling at you. I will keep it a bit more professional and just tell you again bluntly, you can't do this, and the fact that you did is the sole problem. These are awesome animals, and they require specific care.

Leopard geckos. 2 adults, in a 10 gallon glass tank is really difficult to get the proper warm side and cool side and causes stress. These are adult leopard geckos. They are durable as can be, and were healthy as can be as well when they left us. Move these immediately into a 20 gallon terrarium or bigger, so when you have a basking spot around 90, you can have a cool side that is appropriate for them. They sound like they could use a touch of humidity as well, as in a 10, they can dry out rather quick under that heat, so give them a light mist each day so the paper towels are moist. And give both of them a "steam bath" in Tupperware containers. Take a handful of wadded up paper towels. Soak them under very warm, but not "hot" water. Take those paper towels, and put them into a tupperware container about the size of a sandwich. Poke just a few tiny holes in the lid, and put one leopard gecko in there. Let it sit for about 15 minutes, and watch the eyes pop right open. Do this for the 2nd one. Then put them both into the correct sized tank. 2 adults in a 10 can cause stress, and have improper temperatures as well. You also told us you are handling your animals constantly (literally ever few hours) and force feeding pedialyte. STOP handling them, especially the chameleon. Baby chameleons shouldn't be handled at all, but at this point, I am not sure it will matter by the way it sounds as baby veileds are tough to bring back from the condition you are describing :( If you still want to contact the ASPCA on us as you mentioned in your last email to us, go ahead. Kate and Erin just wanted to help the animals at that point, so I hope you take ours, and everyone else's advice that read about the setup and immediately knew where the error was. We greatly appreciated your business, but after not listening to our advice, and doing damage yourself to the animals, it is best that we part ways anyhow. I highly recommend you get books, and ask questions in the future before making any new animal purchases - for the sake of the animals themselves.

It is beyond frustrating to read posts like this with issues that could have easily been avoided with a little research and proper care. Anyone who knows me personally knows that I care a great deal. I hope the OP takes the advice and is able to help what he still has there.

Scott Wesley
LLLReptile & Supply
 
That is a lot of stuff. Basically, you're cooking all of them.

Leos: You don't get to decide when they cool down; they do. They are in a small tank with 24 hr heat, unless you happen to see the temps go up. It is not their habit to "take a dip" in the pool when they get too hot.

Chams: With all that heat and uv, and no screen cage, I would guess the female is still alive because she hasn't died yet.

You need to get a larger tank for the leos and a tall screen cage for the chams, very quickly, or you are going to lose them all. Meanwhile, research the requirements of these animals, because what you have is inappropriate. I would put whatever chams you have left in the shower 2X per day for maybe 15 minute to drink, and lose the heat lamps until you have proper caging.

After the cost of animals, hoods, and shipping, you have about $600 in drink cubes and supplements. Probably not where the money needs to be.

Noelle
 
I have not purchased animals from LLL but see them at shows all the time.
I have not noticed any animals that have looked ill at their booths at the shows. I do get some dry goods from them and they have always had great customer service. There have been a few times where I was considering an animal from them but passed because I did not have a setup ready at the time.
The employees not budging on prices is irrelevant to this thread; they are probably not authorized to make those deals and that is what drives the entire market down anyway.

as for the animals;
I have worked with veils and red eyes in the past and even when they are picked up in person they are extremely delicate (I quit working with these because of that).
I would not be surprised if they were to have died in shipping or as a direct result of being shipped.

As for the setups; you MUST have a setup ready for ANY animal a few days prior to getting the animal! Anything less is just negligent. :NoNo:
Scott is absolutely right about the leopard geckos needing more space. Get a way bigger tank.

Trying to cut corners on husbandry is animal cruelty in my eyes.
 
To Noelle i have a screen cage if you read all of my posts i mentioned that i have a 24"x24"x48" aluminum screened cage that them lights are on so no im not cooking them and yes my female chameleon is healthy and still alive getting really big about 4 1/4" from snout to base of tail. as for the leos no i dont control when they choose to cool down but maybe you miss read what i said i said if the temps in the tank get too hot then i choose to cool it down meaning if the temps in the tank go higher then 98 degrees i choos to cool it down so they dont bake to death but temps average between 89-95 on the hot side and 80-86 on the cool side and at night on the cool side of the tank i have seen temps go as low as 75 and as low as 85 on the warm side of the tank so yes i can regulate the temps in a 10 gallon glass terrarium. An yes you can comfortably house to adult leopard geckos in a 10 gallon tank but at the moment i have the male house in a 10 gallon steralite container because he was trying to mount the female and im not sure the female is healthy or large enough being that the female you sent me is only 60g and on the skinny side

and thanks you skiploader for listing the 3 links above of LLL sending people sick animals i have seen this on several different reptile forums over the last few days of people getting animals infested with mites and other health problems and like LLL fails to mention in thier post to me yes i spoke to them several times and even got an email stateing that my animal looks dehydrated and im wondering how thats my fault being that the pictures i sent to them were taken the day this baby chameleon arrived and they also fail to mention that i did in fact order a another screened cage due to arrive on 1/10/2014 thats tomarrow. now how could 2 sick baby chameleons be my fault when both arrived in the same conditions and one of the 3 chameleons is still alive and very healthy. Stop putting all this blame game on me for sick animals being sent to me
 
dmagick2012 said:
As for me getting these animals without setup being ready i had everything shipped overnight with the animals and it took me maybe an hour to set up both the 10 gallon tank for the frogs and the cage for both chameleons
Click to expand...

An hour seems a bit premature to consider your environments properly set up from start to finish, no? And when you deal with those that buy and resell at wholesale prices in quantity, it's always a bit of a gamble.

Double B Reptiles said:
If someone offers you five dollars less than your asking price on a $95 dollar animal, And you decline, that says something about your business model. They aren't in it for their customers or the animals.
Click to expand...

It speaks volumes of their business model Brendan, just not in the negative light you're trying to shine on it...If they have the customer base and exposure to not need to deal with hagglers, good for them.
 
If you read the threads, all 3+ years old, the animals in question were difficult species to keep (mites on the gecko aside); Jackson's are TOUGH to keep, period. even a healthy looking one will crash in a hurry. green pythons should NEVER be force-fed, it WILL kill them.
As for the mites; all reptile keepers will get them at one time or another, LLL asked to be kept posted on the situation which is good. Can't say I would be happy about getting an animal with mites, but that is why there is a quarantine period.
There are a lot of people out there who have been well taken care of by LLL over the years. All businesses that involve live animals are going to have some bad customer experiences to go with the good.
Overall, the animals I have seen on display at there booths were all in great condition and mite free; the species people are having trouble with are difficult species even when they are not put into a box and shipped.

If you really are serious about keeping chameleons your best bet is to set the cage up first and buy one in person from a breeder at an expo. In your case, you bought the cage and animals at the same time. Now you have a chameleon in a critter keeper!? C'mon. You can't rush animal purchases, it never ends well for the animal and then the seller gets blamed.

PS; you should not be keeping 2 chameleons in the same cage; they have a tendency to fight, but I'm sure you already know that. :thumbsup:
 
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