What Ball projects should we --> breeders and hobbyist-- be focusing on?

[Mikesss]

Like the title says "What should breeders be focusing on"? There are many many people like me that are hobby and business breeders out there. Are our projects flooding the market? Should we calm down a little? I'm seeing more and more proven adults on the market. As much as I would love to have them, I really don't want to reproduce whats already being overproduced. Just go to the dog pound and imagine everything you see as a Ball Python instead of dogs and cats. Should we focus on the multi-gene dominant and co-dominate or get serious into the recessive stuff? Whats everyone else think? I hope im not opening up a can of worms? If I am I'm sorry! It's seems better to talk with thousands of you and getting your thoughts other than my little circle of breeder buddies.

 

[hhmoore]

My answer hasn't changed on this question. Hobbyists should focus on what interests them, and not concern themselves too much with the market. The answer varies a bit for businesses as, beyond a certain point, they have to focus more on sales than their own interest.
I've been doing this a long time; and I have always spoken against overproduction...and I practice what I preach. I have always limited my production...and, when I was breeding more species, I had personal "per species" limits as well as "total number" limits that I adhered to.

If you like a heavily produced species/morph, and your breeding is a reflection of that - go for it...with the realization that you aren't going to make as much, and you may be holding onto the babies for a while.

Overproduction combined with impatience/desperation has created a difficult market. Newer names can only compete by undercutting; and buyers know that all they have to do is wait & the prices will come down. BP breeders have created their own mess, IMO.

 

[dcondie]

I think scaleless is what everybody will be after in the next 5-10 years and all the "current morphs" will head that way. Just my opinion.

 

[EmeraldBoid]

I am teaching all my snakes to mix martinis and do hair, this will keep my profits stable and my animals in demand.

Seriously though, I agree with hhmoore, I always think of what really interests me before I think of the "market". I think over production is a serious issue in the snake industry, particularly the ball python market. So many people breed their female BPs at 2-3 years of age and I personally do not even think of breeding anything until year 4 or later. Cranking out eggs and gravid females that fast is definitely causing over saturation. Morelia Viridis can easily have over 12 egg clutches whereas balls generally have smaller 6-8 egg clutches. So why is the chondro market not "flooded" with tons of CBB animals? Because, our gals can take a solid 5 years before they are ready to go.

The above is just my opinion though, I apologize in advance if anyone has to run to the ER for the treatment of butthurt.

 

[NIGRO51]

Overproduction combined with impatience/desperation has created a difficult market. Newer names can only compete by undercutting; and buyers know that all they have to do is wait & the prices will come down. BP breeders have created their own mess, IMO.

Pure truth!

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

Before my partner and I even got involved in ball pythons, we agreed on three things: no inbreeding, quality over cost, and to only breed what we really liked. I know a lot of people jump on the 'new and popular' morphs, and then (surprise!) the next season you see a hundred of them available and people start having to drop prices drastically to compete.

I feel like if you stick with morphs that you really like and work on breeding quality animals, selling them shouldn't be an issue. Just because something has already been made, doesn't mean you shouldn't try to make one if you really like how it looks. Some of my favorite morph combos are some of the cheapest to make and were first created 10 years ago, but I'd rather be excited by what comes out of the eggs than be worried about profit margins.

 

[NIGRO51]

I feel like if you stick with morphs that you really like and work on breeding quality animals, selling them shouldn't be an issue. Some of my favorite morph combos are some of the cheapest to make and were first created 10 years ago, but I'd rather be excited by what comes out of the eggs than be worried about profit margins.

This thread is using up all of my karma lol

 

[Mikesss]

Love the feedback and agree with pretty much all of you. I've produced various snakes, lizards, and tortoises. It's always been a hobby. Started getting way into it as a business but have been working my butt off to turn it back into a hobby. I still get excited when I produce a Normal male Ball Python that I turn around and sell for $10-$20 or give away to my kids friends. It's something fun and exciting to do.
Again I'm sorry if I opened a can of worms. Please don't get upset with me or anyone who has or will respond to the post.

 

[hhmoore]

So why is the chondro market not "flooded" with tons of CBB animals? Because, our gals can take a solid 5 years before they are ready to go.

Sorry, but that is only part of it. BPs weren't a big thing before morphs. Sure, some people bred them; but it was people that really liked them, and nobody went nuts about it.
The BP market is flooded - plain and simple - because of mass production. BPs don't require roomy enclosures, and their needs are pretty easily met; so even newbies without much of a clue can manage to keep a bunch of them. After morphs, people saw dollar signs and started loading up on normal females - breeding a single male with 8-10 females. At one time, due to this, normal females that were close to breeding size could sell for $400.
Anyway, people get bit by the BP bug, and go nuts. How many go from their first ball python to 10 or more within a year. Heck - I've seen newcomers show up with their first snake, and have 2 racks of adult females by the time breeding season rolls around. People jump in hard and overproduce because that's what they see everybody else doing. Then they have to keep going to get their money back; which gets harder and harder with the number of people trying to sell. A lot of them don't last long - in and out within a few years - but as they go, there's a bunch more jumping in...buying collections on the cheap, so they can mass produce, too.

 

[NIGRO51]

That makes it sound so grim.

 

[hhmoore]

I'll admit to grim....but I notice you didn't dispute any of it, lol.

 

[bcr229]

That makes it sound so grim.

Not really, it's simply the free market at work. The ones bailing were basically in it for the $$$ anyway, and they realized that for the time invested they would be better off either breeding another species, or getting a job as a Walmart greeter. (Either that or they're one of the jerks dumping their animals b/c they may have a PMV ripping through their collection, but that's a different discussion.)

Now, looking ahead at the BP market for the next year compared to the overall snake market, there's pressure being applied now that is skewing things and BP's are taking a massive hit. I'm talking about the five snake species that will potentially become regulated under the Lacy Act.

I was planning on buying a baby Tarahumara female later this year, and a male next year. Those plans changed due to BCI's potentially being regulated under Lacy as there are no breeders/sellers in my state for Taras. So, I just put 1.1 2013 unrelated Taras into QT this past week. After they're out of QT my husband wants a male Suriname boa. He'd wanted one for a while but it was always "one day I'll get one". Thanks to Lacy he'll be getting one for his birthday this fall, and that will be our last purchase for the year. The money we spent on them and their setups had been earmarked for BP's, but those plans changed quickly once we realized that we may not be able to legally purchase the Lacy species we want next year.

I know that I'm not the only one whose purchasing plans changed; retics are hot now. If/when they do get covered under Lacy the pendulum will swing the other way.

So as Harald said, breed what you like, and, knowing that the BP market is likely to be soft for the foreseeable future breed what you can afford to keep.

 

[Mikesss]

I wouldn't dispute a word of it. Sometimes the truth hurts. As much as some people don't want to admit to it. I think EmeraldBoid and hhmoore are right on target. Why doesn't everyone overproduce Emeralds? Because they take years to get ready and their a lot more touchy than Balls. Two of my Emerald cages are almost the same size as two of my 28qt racks. That's 2 Emeralds to 10 tubs. That's 2 $80 heat panels to a big strip of heat tape. The perfect example of overproducing and hurting the market is the Banana Ball. YES I have one but I dont have a clue what I want to do with it. If a lottery ticket was like a Banana Ball then everyone would win a ton of money all the time. The american dollar wouldn't be worth crap. Our economy would get worse than it is and the U.S. would crumble in a heart beat. In that situation I served in the Army for no reason at all. I suppose that will go back to my original question and maybe focus in on the recessive stuff that takes a long time to produce and the odds of producing what you want are terrible. The question and excitement of "can I do it" is the fun part. That's where i'm going in the hobby. Lots of failure and very little chances of the reward.

 

[hhmoore]

I think there's more to the ones bailing than "being in it for the money". Realistically, I suspect that a lot of them woke up to the reality of the cost of doing this (meaning: time, space, and money). Some also probably realized that they wanted other things more than they wanted 10-40 ball pythons.
I've been toying with getting out for years - and not because I was in it for the money, or that I don't like the animals any more. I'd love to have the cages out of my office; and I'd like to feel like I could go away for two weeks. Heck, I'd like to go back to enjoying summer...doing things I enjoy without feeling guilty because I'm not cleaning, watering, feeding, etc. Most of all, though, I simply don't like the process of selling very much; especially the way things have been going (increasingly so) for the past several years. Having taken the past few years off, this year will be interesting when I start advertising again (especially when/if I have to decline sales simply because I choose not to sell to somebody whose online persona annoys me)

 

[Mikesss]

Going away for 2 weeks? Why would you want to take a vacation when you could clean up poop? I agree with you again Harald. I go back and fourth on selling off everything. But then I produce something and it gets exciting. Stuff starts hatching and my family, including me, constantly checks the incubator for babies. The kids want to hold, name, and keep every single one. They show all their friends that come over. Even the girl across the street who's in the 4-H animal club (aka furry animal lover). I make sure I feed something when shes over. If anyone ever questions me if I ever overfeed, YES I do but only when shes at my house. If it isn't feeding day, somethings gets fed anyways when shes over.
All 3 of my kids play travel sports. As they get older and travel more, my time gets less and less. My oldest who's only 13 is starting to travel all over the country now. That's just one kid. My other 2 aren't far behind. The saying "Time is Precious", I really start to understand that as I get older, my kids get older, and im cleaning poop. It sure is nice though when I sell a snake and it pays or helps pay for a tournament, buys a new pair of cleats, or pays for the new expensive bat.

 

[EmeraldBoid]

I will admit that my first classified adds here are at rock bottom prices, mainly because unfulfilled previous commitments have left me with the choice to either build another BP rack or move animals faster than I get them in . As many have already determined, the space is worth more to me at the moment; however, my new ball room is under construction and I will have a lot more capacity for if sales get few and far between...honestly I need the space to raise up holdbacks anyway as most of my projects will be geared toward line breeding and not just straight mutations.

 

[NIGRO51]

Im a huge fan of "the free market at work" it keeps the pretty things I like cheap and attainable without sacrificing other things.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

even newbies without much of a clue can manage to keep a bunch of them. After morphs, people saw dollar signs and started loading up on normal females - breeding a single male with 8-10 females.

I agree with you for the most part, but I also think that these are the sorts of people that don't last. Most of the collections I see people selling off recently are people that obviously had no idea what they were doing (they'll have a hypo male, het albino female, het red ax female, 50% poss het pied...I'd love to know what they were trying to make).

My partner has had ball pythons for years and had always entertained the idea of breeding them, but was too scared to actually do it until I gave her a little push and told her I'd help with everything. We did buy 6 normals to breed, but we also bought 4 completely different breeder males to keep things diversified; not only for ourselves for holdbacks, but also to avoid flooding with 20 of the same morph.

I'll admit that I don't have the experience that a lot of people on here do...however, I'm also not some idiot with no clue who just jumped in to try to make money. I did months of research on different morphs before I even attempted to get in, and I would like to think I have a pretty good plan as far as breeding intentions go. I also have a solid understanding of genetics. I just don't think it's fair to lump all 'newbs' into the same category. I think there are a few people in the classifieds who are probably quite happy that I decided to get involved in breeding.

I think I said this in another post, but we aren't just breeding things to make money...we agreed before we started that we were only going to breed things that we liked. Fortunately for us, the things that we like happen to be things that people aren't overproducing.

 

[Mikesss]

Everyone was a "newbie" at one time. I have a trio of Red Ackies. Yes I'm going to breed them and no I've never bred any Monitor before. I've had other Monitors when I was in high school as pets(long time ago). About 10 years ago was the first time I even heard of a dwarf monitors. The other stuff got to big for me and I adopted them out. I read all about them all the time. Even the same stuff I've already read. I google pictures of set ups. I email questions to the non-newbies. So far I think I'm doing pretty darn good. Their so active and entertaining that sometimes I just sit and watch them run around and dig up their cool looking cage. They're about 10 feet from me right now and I can see the male is all over one of the females. WooHoo by the way!!!! I have no problems with "Newbies". Breed what makes you happy. Please just understand that over producing can cause the animals problems in the future and cause you problems when trying to sell them. Again my best example would be to think of all the dogs and cats at the pound.

 

[hhmoore]

My statement was not meant to be derogatory toward new people, and I didn't say all newbies were clueless. Take a breath, reread, and consider the sentence as it applies to ball pythons (not their keepers).