Bad Guy Beware of Panther Company

[choppers1]

Company name: Panther Co.
Owners: Vincent Maggio and Josh Pritchard.
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Contact: [email protected]
Fauna user name: Panther company

Hello,
My name is Lam Do, this is my first BOI so please excuse me if I make any mistakes. I want to share with all of you about a matter that has been happening. There are some of you have already known about this and I want to share more information about it. This is not for my personal gain or for any vendetta that I have with Panther Co. I been doing business with them and I was very happy with them up until the last few weeks. I never thought about doing a BOI but many people have encouraged me to do so. Still I wasn't gonna do a BOI because of the drama and all the headaches. But I was threatened and bribe to shut me up. Josh Pritchard heard that a few people have encouraged me to do a BOI on his company (pantherco.) And send me a message.

Let me start from the beginning.

On August 2, I contacted Josh Pritchard about an F1 nosy faly he posted for sale at $425. He explained to me that this was from a wc sire and a wc dam.

I have to take a photo off on my computer screen because on fb messenger, Josh had deleted the pics.

Here is the sire, same situation.

Here's the picture on my fb messenger

Deleted on fb messenger but on fb private message still save the pictures.
I know I was buying a nosy faly from a wc female, so I was told by Josh. I would be taking chances because the wc female can be a mix. But that is not the reason for this BOI.
On August 15 I posted a few pictures of the F1 faly in a group on fb (chameleon gonewildusa).

After a few minutes, Shauna which is the owner of Tree Candy Chameleon messaged me. She recognized the faly because she had returned him back to panther co. The faly which I bought was sold to Shauna as an ambanja from Cyclone/grimbold.

shauna returned him back because he wasn't even a cyclone / grimbold. Here's an email that shauna received from Josh that explain what happened.

In this emailed Josh clearly stated that the male sold to Shauna is an ambanja.

So, after I read the message from shauna, I messaged Josh about the situation. At first Josh doesnt admit that it's the same animal but when I show him the pictures Shauna sent me, he recognized it.

 

[choppers1]

Not even once did Josh told that the nosy faly I bought was label as an ambanja and was returned. I even brought up the subject about Shauna "ambanja" and Josh didn't even bring it up.

Josh did admit it was the same animal and has issued a full refund. I know most of you think that a full refund is ok and I should keep my mouth shut. What happens if I didn't find out? My breeding project would be jeopardized. I'm just the tip of the iceberg, there are many more people out there that panther co. have lied to. This is not what we need in the reptiles community, if I don't start then they will keep lying and getting away with it. I'm not trying to put out panther company out of business, it's about the chameleons. But this is out right unbelievable
I have concrete evidences that Josh and Vincent at panther co. knew actually what they were doing. As you can see from the above pics. Ever since then, they have been back tracking and delete anything that was related to this issue.
There was a thread on fauna classified which they sold a lot of 10 chams, which they label as F1 nosy faly. They have posted this picture

Which stated that the lot is from the same pairing. That picture is the nosy faly they sold me. That thread have been deleted.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=489431
If a mod can bring that thread back then you will see that they are deleting evidences.
I'm doing this boi out of my care for the chameleon community and I want it to thrive and prosper for many more years. If I'm missing anything please let me know.
Thank you.

 

[choppers1]

Sorry have to break in two parts

 

[Lucille]

So what happened is that they sold lizards from wild caught parents as one thing based on their appearance, and then later decided it was not that one thing and had been mislabeled but a different kind, and then they offered refunds to all buyers of the mislabeled critters, is that how it went or no?
Are you saying the mislabel was intentional? If so could you please go over the reasons why you are thinking that?

 

[james200111]

Lucille josh at panther company has used said animal which is labeled ambanja, to sell a 10 lot of faly babies. The faly babies were from a wc female Stating the said male "ambanja" proves the lines out. He deleted the fauna thread but I have original link if the mods want to bring thread up. To show the deception panther company is showing. In trying to move unproven lines and labeling as pure faly when said lines are far from such. Http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=489431 that's original fauna sales ad

 

[james200111]

I see add didn't come up as I wrote it here it is again http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=489431

 

[choppers1]

They are intentionally putting chameleons up for sale which they have no records of the lineage and they just put whatever locale they think look like. They don't notify the customers about it. They falsely advertise the chameleons. In the chameleons world locales are very important, we as breeder don't buy cross locales because we want to keep the line clean. A high profile lineage can bring in more money than a low profile.

 

[Lucille]

They are intentionally putting chameleons up for sale which they have no records of the lineage and they just put whatever locale they think look like. They don't notify the customers about it. They falsely advertise the chameleons. In the chameleons world locales are very important, we as breeder don't buy cross locales because we want to keep the line clean. A high profile lineage can bring in more money than a low profile.

I'm not arguing because you obviously know more about chameleons than I do. But didn't they say that the parents were WC and that they were basing their classification on appearance?
And as soon as they thought different, didn't they notify and offer a refund?

 

[choppers1]

No they didn't notify me, I asked them about it. They don't even know if that's is the correct parent to the male I bought. First they label him as an ambanja and sold him as an ambanja. Then when it doesn't look like an ambanja, got returned, they label him as a F1 nosy faly. And stating him as a off spring of wc parents. Which they don't know and they never tell the customers.

 

[azn567]

The F1 "Faly" male in question does not look remotely like a nosy faly to me.

I believe you have a 50/50 Nosy Faly/ Ambanja Hybrid on your hands. Many of the original supposed F1 "Faly's" carried this look, so that is probably why many do not catch on to certain traits.

The prominent and distinct Y bar seems to indicate ambanja influence, as those bars look like classic ambanja traits to me.

I would not have used that male as an indicator to prove out the WC dame as a true faly, if I had seen that male as a result of a WC female I would have already assumed them to be hybrids.

The coloration and shade of blue also do not seem typical of what I would expect from a real faly, but the barring is the most obvious giveaway.

 

[shaunaroxanne]

Since I was involved with originally purchasing the male in question, I will provide my input.

Making a mistake is understandable, but making a similar mistake numerous times shows that, at worst.... they have been dishonest, and at best....they are not running a responsible breeding facility.

Here is the timeline of events....

4/22/14- I emailed Panther Co to inquire about purchasing a Cyclone/Grimbold female.

4/23- Josh P informed me that the Cyclone/Grimbold babies were all sold but offered me something from a different bloodline, in which I wasn't interested, since it was the Grimbold lineage I was most interested in.

5/3- I emailed Josh P again because I wasn't finding what I was looking for in a breeder, so I wanted more info about other lines he had available.

5/4- Josh responded that he had a new, alpha male from a new Cyclone/Grimbold ambanja pairing.

5/6- I received the male ambanja from Panther Co that I purchased

......As I began watching this male, I noticed he was not taking on any of the traits that I was hoping for in a potential breeder so I went to a FB group for opinions......

6/27- I posted the pic of this male on Chameleons Gone Wild USA, and many people expressed concerns about this cham not displaying any of the Grimbold characteristics I was looking for.

6/28- Josh P contacte me because he saw the post and said although he was not displaying Grimbold traits, he was looking just like Cyclone so he would like to buy him back if I don't like him, to which I said I would have to think about it.

7/1- After hearing that Josh had admitted to some people that the dam may not in fact be from Grimbold, I emaile him to ask if there was any truth to that. He responded that although he sold them as Cyclone/Grimbold, he did not actually buy the females from Ed Kammer (Grimbold's breeder), but he bought them from a third party who claimed they were Grimbold (none of this had been disclosed previously). He went on to say that they may not actually have been from Grimbold, but that this boy was, indeed sired by Cyclone (ambanja), because he could clearly see by the pics that he looked like Cyclone did when he was young.

......although I was upset, I decided to give Josh the benefit of the doubt, and chose to believe it was an honest mistake. Sadly, I sent the male back, because I did not want to use questionable lineage in my breeding program.

Josh also stated in his email that he was going to contact everyone who bought a cyclone/grimbold offspring and offer refunds. I know of at least one person who he never contacted, and she was unaware of the above until I mentioned it to her. She had to contact him about it. He did then offer her a refund as well (she chose to keep the female as a pet).

And that was that for me.....until I looked at my computer a month later, and saw that this boy was sold to someone else as a pure Nosy Faly.

That is where the story starts with with the OP. He had no knowledge of the past of this baby, who, in a very short time frame, was shipped from CA to PA, then back to CA to Panther Co, then shipped to the OP, then returned back to Panther Co. Once is a mistake, twice is not mistake. Sending a chameleon out this many times is irresponsible. Not disclosing the truth to two different clients is dishonest and irresponsible. Getting females conused and babies mixed up is irresponsible. Listing chameleons as any specific locale without being 100% is dishonest, sloppy, and damaging to the breeders who are trying to establish pure, healthy bloodlines.

I have screenshots of all of the above conversations and I will attach them once I gather them all together and figure out how to attach them here.

 

[WebSlave]

Warning: Please provide all images in your posts via the attachment process on this site. Otherwise the "evidence" that you post may be blocked or deleted by the website facility that is actually hosting those images at anytime in the future. Which, of course, then renders your story as being unsupported by any evidence.

 

[james200111]

These are messages stating "ambanja" male is older sibling to the f1 falys to say that their proved out
James raymond

​

 

[shaunaroxanne]

Since I was involved with originally purchasing the male in question, I will provide my input.

Making a mistake is understandable, but making a similar mistake numerous times shows that, at worst.... they have been dishonest, and at best....they are not running a responsible breeding facility.

Here is the timeline of events....

4/22/14- I emailed Panther Co to inquire about purchasing a Cyclone/Grimbold female.

4/23- Josh P informed me that the Cyclone/Grimbold babies were all sold but offered me something from a different bloodline, in which I wasn't interested, since it was the Grimbold lineage I was most interested in.

5/3- I emailed Josh P again because I wasn't finding what I was looking for in a breeder, so I wanted more info about other lines he had available.

5/4- Josh responded that he had a new, alpha male from a new Cyclone/Grimbold ambanja pairing.

5/6- I received the male ambanja from Panther Co that I purchased

......As I began watching this male, I noticed he was not taking on any of the traits that I was hoping for in a potential breeder so I went to a FB group for opinions......

6/27- I posted the pic of this male on Chameleons Gone Wild USA, and many people expressed concerns about this cham not displaying any of the Grimbold characteristics I was looking for.

6/28- Josh P contacte me because he saw the post and said although he was not displaying Grimbold traits, he was looking just like Cyclone so he would like to buy him back if I don't like him, to which I said I would have to think about it.

7/1- After hearing that Josh had admitted to some people that the dam may not in fact be from Grimbold, I emaile him to ask if there was any truth to that. He responded that although he sold them as Cyclone/Grimbold, he did not actually buy the females from Ed Kammer (Grimbold's breeder), but he bought them from a third party who claimed they were Grimbold (none of this had been disclosed previously). He went on to say that they may not actually have been from Grimbold, but that this boy was, indeed sired by Cyclone (ambanja), because he could clearly see by the pics that he looked like Cyclone did when he was young.

......although I was upset, I decided to give Josh the benefit of the doubt, and chose to believe it was an honest mistake. Sadly, I sent the male back, because I did not want to use questionable lineage in my breeding program.

Josh also stated in his email that he was going to contact everyone who bought a cyclone/grimbold offspring and offer refunds. I know of at least one person who he never contacted, and she was unaware of the above until I mentioned it to her. She had to contact him about it. He did then offer her a refund as well (she chose to keep the female as a pet).

And that was that for me.....until I looked at my computer a month later, and saw that this boy was sold to someone else as a pure Nosy Faly.

That is where the story starts with with the OP. He had no knowledge of the past of this baby, who, in a very short time frame, was shipped from CA to PA, then back to CA to Panther Co, then shipped to the OP, then returned back to Panther Co. Once is a mistake, twice is not mistake. Sending a chameleon out this many times is irresponsible. Not disclosing the truth to two different clients is dishonest and irresponsible. Getting females conused and babies mixed up is irresponsible. Listing chameleons as any specific locale without being 100% is dishonest, sloppy, and damaging to the breeders who are trying to establish pure, healthy bloodlines.

I have screenshots of all of the above conversations and I will attach them once I gather them all together and figure out how to attach them here.

Hopefully, I have figured out how to attach the screenshots

 

[shaunaroxanne]

Ok, I am attemptimg this again.....

 

[shaunaroxanne]

Continued screen shots.....

 

[Panther Company]

I don't refute any of the screenshots shared.

We did make a mistake and send Shauna an animal with lineage different than what she paid for. We issued a full refund (including shipping).

After getting him back, we realized we were even more wrong on what we sent her than we/she thought -- we sent her a male from the wrong clutch entirely. I did not update Shauna with that additional bit of information since by that point we had already purchased the male back and had him in our possession again.

About a month after getting him back, I did sell the same male to Lam, with the corrected lineage info. I did not make any disclosure about him being the male that Shauna had purchased as Ambanja -- nor did I believe it to be relevant, since Lam wasn't responding to a for sale ad, but pictures shared on Facebook of the actual male, saying that he had the Faly look he had been waiting to find (as did others). He was very pleased with the animal at first, based on appearance, but soon after sharing pictures and having others point out it was the male we'd sold Shauna, he asked for a refund. We gave him a full refund and got the chameleon returned to us yesterday.

 

[choppers1]

You didnt want to disclose the information to me because you knew i or anyone else wouldnt want to buy him. Also, you knew that if you disclose the information, you couldnt sell it for a high price. The fact that i asked you if that was the same animal and you told me you have to check with vincent first. But you knew all along it was the same animal. So what does that tell you?? And the whole of thing of me waiting to find a faly is wrong. You posted up for sale at 425 thats why i asked to buy him. Thats was me responding to a sale ad u posted. Then how did i know he was for sale at 425 if you didnt posted a sale ad?

 

[robmd1]

Josh you seem to have a lot of Mistakes happining lately for it to be just a simple mistake.. its seems alil to convenient.. what about all the crossed Mitsios your pawning off on everyone? I said this was going happen months ago Josh an look its happening just like I said.. you sold Jessica a faly that looks nothing like a faly from the pictures she posted on facebook group chameleons gone wild, which you have yet to respond to publicly. then when you admit it sint a faly you say its a mitsio an it def isn't a mitsio either is the one you sent her to begin with as a mitsio,, why not just admit you sold the crossed ones from my female josh.. you know the ones you never mentioned to anyone before I called you out on it?

 

[jishillencik]

One minute Josh Pritchard is quoted saying Shauna's boy is 100% ambanja, another that they base identifying locales on pureness of looks alone, and then blame the mishap on a mixup...which is the truth?

Since I appear in many of the screenshots here, I would like to present my dealings with the Panther Company in the past. My name is Joshua Illencik and I purchased a male Ambanja holdback in April from their supposed Cyclone/Grimbold line. I was completely happy at first but as I watched him develop over the approximate 2.5 months under my care, I had growing doubts and concerns that the male I purchased was not of the line he was advertised or sold to me as.

Shauna's post in Chameleons Gone Wild U.S.A. prompted me to confront Josh Pritchard directly with the issue and the truth came out. I was extremely upset and disappointed to find out the pure blood male with excellent lineage turned out to be at worst a mutt and at best an ambanja of unknown origins. Not suitable for breeding, I sent him back and received a full refund but I still took a loss considering the amount of time he was under my care.

I will post the evidence I have gathered tonight when I return home from work.