Reptile Shows...what if anything can be done to bring them back?

[gila7150]

Continuing the discussion from the BOI thread...
Attendance and sales are obviously down at Reptile Shows. My question to you is why and what if anything can be done about it?

I attended the Daytona Breeders Expo recently. I have been out of reptiles for a while due to personal reasons and this was the first Daytona show I've attended since I was a vendor in 2005. My impression was that attendance was so-so, there were far less vendors and the vendors that were there were 75% ball python breeders. There also seemed to be a much greater tolerance for fresh import sales (this show use to proclaim that all animals for sale had to be CB). I went with $1500 in my pocket and came home with some sexing probes and heat tape. This is the first Daytona show I've ever come home from where I didn't purchase several animals but there was nothing I was interested in. The show was a disappointment for me because of the lack of diversity in the animals being offered.

I've heard that the failure of reptile shows is a result of the internet and auctions but there were several successful reptile classifieds sites (including this one) around in 2005 when reptile shows were still very successful. I've also heard that show vendors can't compete with online prices even when shipping is considered. Won't you still have to compete with those prices when you sell your animals online? (minus the overhead of doing the show)

I'd like to see these shows succeed again. I used to look forward to the Daytona Expo all year.
What are your thoughts?

 

[hhmoore]

I think the number and frequency of shows has taken a toll, as well as the number of sellers willing to keep producing while lowering prices at every turn. The bottom line is that the popular species have saturated the market, and many sellers don't find the cost of doing a show to be worth the return.
I've taken a few years off, but produced a small number of babies this year...the prices that I'm seeing are disappointing, and there are still people marking their animals down. It's the same at shows - there are a number of sellers that will under cut everybody to move so.e animals. It's business, but it's self destructive (IMO)

 

[gila7150]

I have to admit that I was a little shocked at BP prices after stepping out of the hobby for almost 10 years. I see both sides of it though. I've been a reptile enthusiast since I was 5 years old and I was a little put off by some of the BP "investors" that seemed to have very little interest in reptiles but were very interested in selling snakes for tens of thousands of dollars. It is kind of nice to see your average hobbyist now being able to own a piebald BP. I'm certainly not referring to all BP breeders.

I do understand that for some this is a business and there needs to be a reasonable return on their investment. It's all relative though...it will cost less to get in to a new morph and the price of their offspring will be lower as well.

Unfortunately, some of the reptiles that are more challenging to breed and have maintained their value are not available at these shows. I buy online out of necessity. I would much rather purchase my herps directly from the breeder at a show.

 

[AbsoluteApril]

OP you nailed it as far as I am concerned - Too many shows, too often, not enough vendors and can't get 'deals' at shows.

The last few I went to, I bought some supplies but no animals. There used to be 2 shows near my area that happened once a year, and I'd go out to the tri-valley for the bird/reptile show just to go to another show. Now there are more shows and they seem to happen more often. The number of vendors is decreasing as well. The last show Utta and I went to there were huge spaces and walkways, everything was very spaced out - couple that with less people attending and it felt empty.

It also seems that the 'good deal' prices that some vendors were able to offer at shows are now the 'standard market prices' everywhere. Also with so many people specializing in the same critters, there's not much variety to be seen. Lots of the same things on each table (balls, leos, cresties) and the ones that had any variety of things were the importers that had mostly wc stuff.

I used to want to save up so I could go to one of the 'big' shows, like Daytona. Now, it doesn't seem like it would be worth the effort. I'd like to see shows be more popular but I don't know the easy answer to that.

 

[bcr229]

I see several issues that the promoters should address.

"Reptile expo" has become synonymous with "ball python expo" over the past few years. Someone going to an expo just to look at, never mind purchase, almost any species except ball pythons is going to be disappointed. The promoters are pretty limited in what they can do to fix this, other than give preferential treatment or a table discount to vendors who bring other species.

There are way too many expos: I can find a show within driving distance two weekends a month, but I don't have time for more than one or two a year. I think in the past shows were just as much social events as they were buying events. Now there are so many I'm actually less likely to attend any of them, because I know another one, with mainly the same vendors, is coming up soon. Eventually the free market will shake out the losers and it will self-correct.

What's odd is that even though there are a ton of expos locally, if it weren't for the internet I wouldn't know about them. Promoters need to expand their advertising and try to also draw non-herpers to their events. Without new customers the industry simply won't expand.

I would rather go to a large annual expo that has not just vendors, but educational seminars, book signings, or Q&A sessions with leaders in the industry. While discussion forums and Youtube are ok for learning some things, others really need a hands-on approach. The entry fee needs to offer more than simply access to the same breeders and animals I see in my FB news feed every day.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

It was not well-suited for what I was offering as a vendor. I had a few inexpensive animals, some mid-range ones, and one rare one that, while more expensive, was still underpriced relative to its value. People wanted things for $5 and $10. I saw a local reptile society member trying to make "noise" selectively for different vendors with especially small chelonians (telling the small-time vendors that the show promoter would kick them out if they left them on the table, but said nothing to the "name" vendors). I spent my day off, which was rather hard to come by at the time, and basically made enough to cover my table after having the pleasure of dealing with extreme low-ballers all day. As in people bombarding my ears with "$5 for the baby RAPTOR", "I'll give you $30 for the marginated", and -my favorite- "you'll take $100 for that adult male Western Hermann's". All day. So I basically sold some animals to sit through that and decided it was not the conduit for sales that was suited for me.

I now sell/advertise online. I typically ship. I only occasionally sell locally. I find local sales to usually be a hassle (high ratio of time wasters to seriously interested parties), but sometimes (very rarely) connect with some really awesome individuals. Online has plenty of low-ballers, but the response of "No, thanks" is easy enough to type and send or, if a serial offender, dragging it to my special folder for such types or simply deleting those messages is a small hand gesture away.

Here is how I boiled it down.

For a show, I may have to take time off, deal with "fun" people for the duration, and basically waste my limited time to decompress from the stresses of my thought-based work in order to come away no better financially. There is no point for me. The love of it? What is that? The love of getting beat on? I would rather spend the time working with the animals at home. That is my love of it.

With online sales, I can be hiking in a state park on a fresco day or boating on a lake or spending time with people I care deeply about and complete sales at proper market prices in order to connect good people who are looking for things with the good things they are looking for.

Shows vary. Some are better than others, no doubt, and some vendors will be better suited to do well in them. With my product portfolio and location, I do not have the right match-up of demographics with offerings, so it is illogical for me to participate unless shifts occur. If I lived in Southern Florida or California, for example, things might be different, but that is not my situation.

On the buyer side, I find the local shows utterly boring. An interesting-to-me animal comes around maybe once in a year's worth of shows. Sometimes not even then. Every time I think "maybe this time", I come away from the show regretting that line of thought and chastising myself for having thought it when it was simply a repeat of the previous virtually identical unproductive experiences.

 

[WebSlave]

Back in the day, we used to do quite a few shows a year. Sometimes even back to back shows from one weekend to the next. Some required some appreciable travel involved, and all were a pain in the butt and a hassle. Not only that, each show cut deeply into the feeding schedule of the animals, being particularly problematic for all the babies hatching out. When it got to the point where I could not feed all of the babies any better than once every 12 days, they began to noticeably suffer and I knew this wasn't going to work.

So some serious decisions needed to be made. One thing I noticed was that we tended to make the same amount of money in gross receipts no matter where we did the smaller shows. So the logical choice was to just cut out any shows beyond a short driving radius unless they were *exceptional* shows. Then the next cut came when I checked the net income figures and discovered that I could make just as much money by just offering a 50 percent discount from my website every now and again as I would by going through all the hassle of doing a show. Let's face it, there is some substantial overhead involved in doing a show. Especially if it is not close enough where you can drive there and back each day to avoid motel and meal costs. That has to be all factored in when considering whether a show is worthwhile to do or not. Yeah, anyone can take a loss every now and again, but show after show, well, that's just not thinking things through. If you want to just throw your money away, there are better ways of doing that.

Eventually we were only doing one show a year, which was the Daytona Expo. Bottom line was that it was the only one we really did well enough at to be worth the effort and hassle.

What made Daytona the exception rather than the rule was because it was really the only show that emphasized the sales aspect of it's existence. Wayne Hill made a lot of effort to keep it that way, at least back then, and had some sensible, of not sometimes unpopular, rules to help in that direction. As for the other shows, yeah, it's just great for the promoters when they advertise their "show" as a SHOW rather than a SALE to get moms and dads bringing in all the kids who want to handle the animals. But I can't tell you how many times I actually heard people lament the fact that they didn't realize that there would actually be animals FOR SALE there. They thought it would be more like a car show with everything merely on display.

Heck, I remember one show in particular where the promoter was actually arranging to have shuttles available to take the walk-ins and bus them to the local casino. Seriously? Sending off potential customers to a casino so they could lose what little money they might have had to spend with us vendors? That's when I stopped doing shows by that promoter.

Anyway, what can be done to turn shows around? Maybe smarter promoters would help. The vendors are your meal ticket and reason for existence. Cater to them. ASK them what they want and then do whatever is necessary to meet THEIR goals. If the promoters goals and the vendors goals are in conflict, then that needs to get resolved. The promoter just might be in the wrong business.

Secondly, promoters need to stop thinking that word of mouth is sufficient advertising for their event. Yeah, they can get a lot of free advertising by simply making posts online, but that really doesn't catch the eyes of people who aren't looking for that show info. They need to make better use of online media to try to GET people interested in attending their shows. Give people a reason to get into the car and drive to their event. Try to invoke some excitement. If they have to cut deals with the vendors to offer them a discount on tables if they offer a discount on their animals or merchandise, then do it. The important thing is to get people in the door who want to spend money with the vendors. THAT is what the vendors are there for. If their goal is not met, then they will simply stop vending at the show. And then what do you have left? Some empty hall, likely, with some hired clown trying to entertain a handful of kids that their parents dropped off while they go shopping.

 

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

It's a Catch 22. Those like myself who breed less common things, stopped doing Shows because 95% of the people there want an afternoon's entertainment for their kids, and maybe to buy them a gecko. They have no interest in my stuff, and I waste my time even being there.


So, when I go to a Show, there is no one like me selling stuff, that I'm interested in.....

 

[sschind]

To back up what Rich was saying people through the door does not equal buyers through the door.

Where I live there is a local twice a month show that I used to do on a semi-regular basis. I've been very on and off (way more off than on) for a while since I have sold my store and I am only going now because a friend has tons of corn snakes to sell. One thing I have learned over the years is that with a regular show like that you never can tell what will happen. My best day ever was when everyone figured it would be a wasted day because there was a "bigger and better" show in town that weekend. It probably wasn't a good day for the promoter because the door was way down and several vendors were at the other show but I sold like crazy and so did a lot of the other vendors. Seems most of the looky loos went to the "bigger and better" show and those who came to our show were buyers. I've also done well on Holidays because I think only the serious buyers go out to the show on Easter. Everyone else spends time with their family.

When I had my store I considered it a successful show if I came home with as much money as left with because I usually got to move excess stock and pick up new stuff. I used to love to trade. 6 Of my 20 tarantulas for 3 or 4 of your frogs or snakes that I didn't have in my store, great now I have more to offer and I have less of the same Tarantulas to feed. Now with the swap being my only venue trades are not as valuable because I'll just have to bring the traded items back next time and try to sell them to the same people you could't sell them to this time. Occasionally I'll trade excess for personal stuff I want so I still win but its at the point where I need to bring home more money than when I left and when I start out down at least 60 bucks that is not easy. Not when the most expensive animal on my table is usually $25.00. That means I have to give away 2 or 3 animals before I break even. I'm not complaining mind you as these are the things I have chosen to sell I am just stating the facts as they pertain to me. However, I know they pertain to many other vendors who don't get into the higher end morphs as well.

In answer to your question what can we do to bring back shows I have a couple of suggestions. First, cut the number of shows. Now that the market has slowed there are simply too many shows. No one has a sense of urgency to buy when they know they can wait until next week or next month and there will be the same shows with the same vendors most likely with the same animals that will most likely be even cheaper because the vendor needs to make some money. Second, which won't happen, get rid of the internet. Lets face it, the world wide web has changed the face of buying and selling. People used to be leery of buying live animals sight unseen and having to pay high shipping fees to potentially have to deal with an absentee seller if things went bad. Now, you can pick the exact animal you want from multiple pictures. Shippers give high volume sellers deals so it doesn't always cost an arm and a leg anymore. On top of that many online retailers have better return policies than in person sales nowadays and the prices are often so much better that its worth the risk. If you are dealing with supplies chances are you can find anything online at a cheaper price if you look and in most cases you don't have to look to hard.

In my opinion it is a sad state of affairs. I love the show atmosphere. I've done reptile shows, fish shows, antique shows, sports memorabilia shows, breweriana shows and a few other types of shows and while not all were profitable I can't really think of one that was not fun in some way shape or form. Yeah it can be a PITA but for the most part it is a great time. Getting together with old friends and meeting new ones. Sharing something in common with a complete stranger. Learning something new. To me that is what the shows were and are about. Yes, I know you have to make money. For some it is a living so the money part is more important for them than it is for others but unless that is your main motivation most shows should be fun. If they are not you probably should start questioning either your motivation for doing them or perhaps deciding whether or not you should continue.

 

[gila7150]

Thanks for all the great comments guys. I live in Florida so most of my experience is with the Daytona Breeders Expo and the Repticon shows. The Repticon shows were pretty weak 10 years ago and they are worse now. Every once in a while I'll go and I usually end up regretting it.

The Daytona show is still ok but it used to be awesome. In 2005, it was still difficult to get a table as a new vendor. Wayne asked his vendors what they planned to sell and I think I only got a table because I was offering some things that year that his other vendors weren't selling. It's probably gotten more difficult for him to be as selective with his vendors because of decreased interest.

It's a Catch 22. Those like myself who breed less common things, stopped doing Shows because 95% of the people there want an afternoon's entertainment for their kids, and maybe to buy them a gecko. They have no interest in my stuff, and I waste my time even being there.

So, when I go to a Show, there is no one like me selling stuff, that I'm interested in.....

I think we have similar reptile interests and I agree completely with you. I don't think you would have a problem selling Drymarchon and Asian rats at Daytona 10+ years ago but I'm not sure I saw that type of customers there this year. My general impression was that most of them were new to the hobby (nothing wrong with that but there used to be more of a balance).

The Daytona Expo used to more of a national show where customers and vendors traveled from other states and even other countries. Now it seems like more of a Florida show with local customers and mostly FL vendors. (probably for a lot of the reasons Rich outlined regarding the costs of out of town shows).
I know that every state has the smaller, frequent shows but I'm curious how the big shows are going in other states. The NARBC show in Tinley Park later this month has a few impressive vendors that I'd like to check out.

 

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

One of the reasons less out of State guys are in Daytona was the change in State law which made it illegal to sell Burms and Retics to 99% of all buyers, even before the Fed law change....

 

[Charlie Redmon]

I think you'll have trouble finding any show that isn't heavily ball pythons anymore...but that's also what sells. Watching people walking around who have made purchases and more than anything else, they are carrying bp's. I hear that as a constant complaint about shows from people, that they want to see more variety and different things at shows...but they just want to see them, not buy them. What people buy at shows, are bp's. If they aren't selling, breeders don't make anything by setting to for people to just look at. When people really start buying other species and creating a demand for them, they'll begin showing up at expo's more. Bp's are also a saturated and screwed up market, too many people with too little business sense, that think the way to make sales is to be the cheapest, so they end up in a race to the bottom to see who can price their animals lowest...and in the end, they just crash the price of a morph for everyone. This isn't just on the bottom end either, this happens with higher end animals also, I would really say it begins from pricing at around 10k and on down. (fake advertised prices vs legitimate selling prices doesn't help either imho but that's another thread probably).

Back to shows, Daytona this year was really good from a vendors side for myself and the friends who I travel and vend with, that would include animals selling for anywhere from about 50$ all the way up to about 16k. I really believe that there was a turn around from the bad ecomony side of things, to people starting to finally spend money again, about a year ago. Daytona was good last year, it was better this year. The last two Tinley shows were really good for us and I'm hoping in just a few weeks to experience more of the same from it.

Daytona for an out of state breeder has also been a piece of cake for the last few years. It does mean getting the permit and having your ducks in a row with when you produced animals, but if you keep feeding cards on babies you produced or document that at least and can show them what they want, it's a friendly greeting and handshake, and they're on to the next table. Who I see have more of an issue are the flippers and traders, people who don't know when their animals are produced as well, or ones that keep no tracking on their animals at all.

Tinley is one of the best shows in the country. The overall quality of animals is great and while balls are still the majority, it probably has one of the better showings of non-bp stuff for any show around. The crowd coming in seems to come ready to spend money (or has for the last couple of shows)...to sell bp's you do have to be willing to make deals with people it seems, but if you work with them some, you can make sales.

I love the comment above that people through the door does not equate to buyers through the door...solve that and you can run as big a show as you want and you'll have vendors blowing up your phone wanting to vend it. Thats when everybody wins, I think too many promoters forget that.

 

[bigjej]

I think there are many good points here but one that hasnt been addressed is simply the downward turn of the national economy over the past 10 years. When it comes to choosing between making rent or car payments and buying another snake (with all its associated care costs to factor), the former will win out. Maybe it took longer to hit this market, or maybe it just took longer for people to notice.
I always enjoy going to the shows for every reason mentioned, but especially, as a hobbyist and not a breeder or bulk buyer, to buy an animal in person, at a reasonable discount not being swallowed by shipping costs. I almost never leave a show empty handed - whether its a new animal, feeders or supplies - but its gotten harder the last couple of years but more and more you have vendors selling the same things, at the same prices, as each other. I always like to do business in person, internet can't beat that, and I make a day out of it with the kids too . I've noticed the BP saturation at the local NY shows over the past few years and found it annoying. Now that I'm in Chicago, I can't wait to check out the NARBC show in 2 weeks.

 

[gila7150]

Daytona this year was really good from a vendors side for myself and the friends who I travel and vend with, that would include animals selling for anywhere from about 50$ all the way up to about 16k.

That's great to hear! I'm comparing this year's show to shows from 9 or 10 years ago so that's good news if there has been a slight upturn.
By the way, I'm not trying to bash ball pythons. I have an appreciation for all reptiles but I would like to see more balance. Maybe ball pythons are what sells but I'm mostly a colubrid guy and I used to spend $2500-3000 on snakes, caging and supplies every year at Daytona. I had $1500 this year to spend and came home empty handed. I think there are many people who would spend money if they found what they were looking for.

I think Lloyd hit it on the head. Reptile enthusiasts who are looking for something other than ball pythons expect pickings to be slim so they either don't go or just go to look around. If I had the opportunity to go to the Hamm Reptile Show I would save up for a year.

 

[Charlie Redmon]

I think there are many good points here but one that hasnt been addressed is simply the downward turn of the national economy over the past 10 years. .....
....I can't wait to check out the NARBC show in 2 weeks.

Actually I did mention it, personally I think things have been starting to pick back up for the last year.

As for Tinley, I hope you enjoy the show, I'm sure I will!

That's great to hear! I'm comparing this year's show to shows from 9 or 10 years ago so that's good news if there has been a slight upturn.
By the way, I'm not trying to bash ball pythons. I have an appreciation for all reptiles but I would like to see more balance. Maybe ball pythons are what sells but I'm mostly a colubrid guy and I used to spend $2500-3000 on snakes, caging and supplies every year at Daytona. I had $1500 this year to spend and came home empty handed. I think there are many people who would spend money if they found what they were looking for.

I think Lloyd hit it on the head. Reptile enthusiasts who are looking for something other than ball pythons expect pickings to be slim so they either don't go or just go to look around. If I had the opportunity to go to the Hamm Reptile Show I would save up for a year.

Daytona is definitely not what it was in years past, and it was certainly down in size even from last year...vendors and crowd both. For having a smaller crowd coming in though, for us anyways, it seemed like a larger majority of people who attended were there to buy, so sales were up for us.

I totally get what you're saying about slim pickings for non-bp animals, but they are what drives the market now. There are definitely demands for other animals, but it takes getting lucky some there with having the right buyers walk in for the species you keep. Sand boas moved great for me at Daytona where other shows this year I might as well have left them at home...I hadn't sold a single spotted python prior to Daytona this year either and sold 5 of 6 that I had there. Womas I sold out before Daytona even got here this season. Other species besides bp's do sell, but not like bp's do consistantly. It's also much easier to sell a 300$ bp than it is a 300$ sand boa...as much as I love the other species, bp's really are where the bulk of the market is right now. With this kind of hit and miss shows, looking for the right crowd for xyz species to come in and buy, I think it makes it worth it more for a lot of people in the other species to skip larger shows and just do online sales. Last year I sold very few of the species that I did this season, but it felt like we couldn't have brought enough hognose...this year I think we may have sold two.

If we don't lose our hobby to restrictive new legislature, I do think that will eventually shift to something else from bp's dominating the market, just like colubrids were where it was at during the 90's, just like leopard gecko's dominated the gecko world so much at one time. I don't know what it will take for bp's to wind down with new stuff constantly coming in, and there's no telling how many new incredible morphs Noah is still sitting on over in Africa waiting to release.

For the record, even though they are about 30% of my collection, I'm really not a fan of them. They are quirky, go off feeding for no reason at times (sometimes for months), can be unpredictable as far as when females will breed (people start breeding them sometimes in november and are still breeding her in june hoping she'll go), can have inconsistant growth patterns (some females are easily ready to breed at 2 yrs old, others take 5 sometimes) eggs are easy to hatch though and people love them...and you can about pick whatever color and pattern you want one in...which is the only reason I started working with them, pairing up two snakes and having 8-16-32 possible combo's in a clutch when you're only averaging 6-8 eggs at a time, makes it a lot of fun seeing what's going to hatch out.

I just seem to see things from the opposite direction of what I hear a lot of times, I believe buyers control the market and are really what drives what we see on tables at shows. If the masses were buying colubrids again, or bcc/bci, or whatever other xyz lizardsnake family/species, then thats what you would see on tables more.

 

[GHC Exotics]

I read a few of the above posts, but I'll admit not all of them. So if I say something someone has already said, I apologize.

As for shows, I agree that the frequency of them in certain areas have definitely saturated the "show" market. There use to be a certain aspect of excitement for a show coming into the area. Now, if you miss one... just wait a month or so and it will be right back (not really a month but you get the point)
Also, I will say that at certain shows, where just about anything is allowed there outside of the reptile and arachnid community, that it just brings a flea market(ish) feel. You begin to forget that it is a "Reptile Show"

Also, there are certain business types that get shunned. As in, at shows where certain businesses have an "exclusive" deal with the show, it prevents smaller companies from selling, and also prevents those attending from having more choices. This does however mostly fit toward "feeder" items, but still.... If there can be 40 tables of one species of snake, then if someone runs a "feeder" company, they should be allowed to vend as well, if they pay for their table section ect. IMO

And then it comes down to one last point, which as a small business owner I believe is a big thing. Promotion, promotion, promotion.
Half the time, there is very little publicity of a show coming around, and if there is, its just on the radio or online. Word of mouth goes so far, but there are still other options out there for event promotion.
That's my quick take on things.

 

[Charlie Redmon]

There is a show in the middle of georgia that used to be a really good reptile show and was just a few times a year, it might have even started as twice a year, now it's five times a year and is just what you're describing...so many non reptile/animal related tables that it feels like a flea market with a few reptile tables...and many of those are import junk, with very little in the way of quality animals there.

I do think promotion is important, but where and how? I hear people talking about doing newspaper/radio/tv adds on local stations, or billboards around town, but how much good does that really do? The bulk of the people that brings in are going to be the ones looking for a cheap trip to a reptile zoo and not serious buyers...so that's good for who's running the show, but not the vendors. Sales for that crowd are going to be nickel and dime stuff for first time buyers or buying a cheap animal for their kid that they see as a disposable animal. To bring in the crowd a show really needs, I think the promotion at minimum needs to be for that state and any surrounding ones, reaching out to anything that would be within about a 4-5 hour drive, to reach enough serious hobbyists. The task there though, is convincing the serious reptile people, that the show is worth driving 5 hours to, over the other junk shows that have saturated the market, that this show will be worth driving 5 hours to over another one that may only be an hour or two from their home the following weekend.

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

If you have been to one of the Reptile super shows you will see that it is alive and well. Attendance is massive. packed with vendors as well.all square footage is occupied and there are no empty tables or booths. I have been to all the major expos all over this country and been going for almost 20 years all the way back to the beginning of the NRBE in orlando. The super show also has the largest diversity of species in the U.S. including some of the most rare and obscure animals available in the hobby. one issue with the old shows is that reputation can't carry you forever and old attitudes that were tolerable when people made money lose their novelty when you dont profit. They do nothing to keep things fresh and little is spent on advertising. I am not commenting on all the little shows they dont count to me as i find very few in the country worth going to even if they are local. So really the issue is regional. In parts of California they are going very strong and few can argue the success of a show that packs a 100,000 plus square foot building with vendors and attendees.