Does the Ball Python industry have a future?

[John kimball]

There are two main factors for the ball python markets huge downfall. The two main factors end up falling back on us as a whole. The are a couple flippers that advertise here and a couple other sites. They sell below market asking value ("backdoor" deals are made A LOT). The worst one dropped banana prices over $2000 in a month. Seeing that caused a lot of people to wait for the "deals." By buying these animals at that price, you drive down the price of what YOU are going to sell. Now I understand that its hard not to buy at a cheaper price. Once these guys can't make money and it costs them money to house them, they go away. Ultimately by buying from someone known for quality over a cheap flipper rewards everyone.

Next is that because you can buy a freedom breeder v70 rack with 30 tubs, you don't need 30 breeder females. Do the math......if half go and give you 6 eggs, that's 90 babies. Are you ready to house and feed 90 babies? Over production leads to the lower end morphs being sold VERY cheap. Pastels, spiders, mojaves, pinstripes......as basic as normal now for this fact. Now days adding pastel to others genes is worth $20-$50 more than without, not like adding say orange dream for a couple hundred more. Go with a project or two and work towards goals, not numbers. A average person can keep a snake for $100 a year total. If a clutch made $200, you made all your money back. Now with that said, I do have over 100 snakes. I am working on my own gene and holding a lot back. People forget that before you release a gene you need to know it. I know some of you are scratching your head. Is it dominant or codom/recessive? That takes 2 to 3 years at best to find out. Does it unlock something when mixed with yellow belly (like puma, highway, etc.) or make a white snake? Another couple years. What does it do with a pattern morph? Unless you produce 5 or 6 males you first year and get 30 different single gene females to breed year two, it takes 5-7 years to get all the questions answered.

There are always little factors that play parts as well. So for those looking to buy as many as they can as cheap as they can so they can produce a lot.....

Exactly. I saw a post about incubation methods and a guy was bragging how he was planning on over 200 clutches his first year RIDICULOUS!

 

[Randy F]

Exactly. I saw a post about incubation methods and a guy was bragging how he was planning on over 200 clutches his first year RIDICULOUS!

So he was not only ignorant, but a liar as well

 

[John kimball]

So he was not only ignorant, but a liar as well

I think he wasn't lying. Trust fund kid who saw an opportunity to grab a quick buck and failed. Hopefully.

 

[j_dunlavy]

I was happy to get 5 ball eggs and 6 woma (Aspidites) eggs last year after 3-4 years of patiently waiting and raising them from babies. This year I will be happy if my other 6 pairings (4 ball pairings) produce 3-4 clutches... heck, I would be happy enough to get 2 clutches... if I get really lucky I could get something from my western type blackheads.

speaking of the rack system thing; I have 2 racks: a baby rack with 18 of 75 tubs occupied and a ball rack that is < 2/3 full... my plan was to raise my own babies to put in the adult rack. Some of the babies I will post for sale when it warms up a little bit, 8 are my pets and future breeders. I am 1 female short of a 1:2 male:female ratio; besides, I don't plan to breed the girls more than 1 in 3 years of so, just too hard on them and I wold run out of space. I don't want to overload my capacity. I will eventually get a second rack so I can keep more pet snakes.

I did buy a coral glow when the price dropped, I think I paid $600 at the time. I bought it from a good hobbyist breeder rather than getting it cheaper from some flipper; I buy nothing from flippers. To be honest I had no real plans for it in the breeding program but my wife has always wanted one for a pet.
I feel bad for some reliable hobbyist breeders who lost so much money when the price bottomed out on those; another reason prices go the way they do is some people are going to be hesitant to invest if the market can bomb so quickly. It is somewhat of a gamble at times.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

I guess I talking more along the lines of brand new base morph secrecy. Like the atomic. No base atomic will be sold from what I hear; can't even seem to find a pic of one. I don't even think you can invest into the project anymore either. It just kinda went away for reasons unclear.

You haven't seen or heard anything about the atomic/eclipse because he was wrong. It doesn't do what he thought, the snakes that popped out that he called an eclipse were just paradox snakes and not genetically reproducible. He's probably still trying to figure out why he can't make them again, but as soon as I saw them and saw the other snakes he produced, I realized he had popped out a couple cool looking paradoxes. If you think I'm wrong that's your opinion, but I'm not holding my breath for him to prove the gene out.

There's a lot of big breeders working with new morphs that simply don't understand genetics. They make claims about them or don't know why certain things are going on, then you get the 'fader gene', deserts, etc. I've seen a lot of things come out of NERD that simply aren't what they were sold as or posted as. It's frustrating that people who are supposed to be at the top of the game have no idea what they're doing. It makes everyone in the hobby look bad, and it especially makes people hesitant to jump into newer combos.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

I did buy a coral glow when the price dropped, I think I paid $600 at the time. I bought it from a good hobbyist breeder rather than getting it cheaper from some flipper; I buy nothing from flippers. To be honest I had no real plans for it in the breeding program but my wife has always wanted one for a pet.
I feel bad for some reliable hobbyist breeders who lost so much money when the price bottomed out on those; another reason prices go the way they do is some people are going to be hesitant to invest if the market can bomb so quickly. It is somewhat of a gamble at times.

I think it's less of the market bombing and more of breeders being irresponsible idiots. I see people who are selling 20 bananas and about 50 total banana combos. It's not hard to see that they bought a banana male or two, bred it into everything they had thinking they were going to get rich, and now are sitting on the surplus they all created. Big surprise, everyone else had the same idea and now no one can sell them.

We don't pair any male with more than two females (only one in most cases). Not only is this for genetic diversity if we want to cross lines later, it's also because we don't want 500 of the same morph. It's just silly to put all of your ball python eggs in one basket IMO.

 

[John kimball]

I think it's less of the market bombing and more of breeders being irresponsible idiots. I see people who are selling 20 bananas and about 50 total banana combos. It's not hard to see that they bought a banana male or two, bred it into everything they had thinking they were going to get rich, and now are sitting on the surplus they all created. Big surprise, everyone else had the same idea and now no one can sell them.

We don't pair any male with more than two females (only one in most cases). Not only is this for genetic diversity if we want to cross lines later, it's also because we don't want 500 of the same morph. It's just silly to put all of your ball python eggs in one basket IMO.

Exactly. I saw a kingsnake add with that exact mentality. His bananas were 225$ ridiculous!!!

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

Exactly. I saw a kingsnake add with that exact mentality. His bananas were 225$ ridiculous!!!

Yea I saw a pastel banana for $300 about a month ago. It's unfortunate because it's SUCH a cool looking morph, and people just tanked it. It's great for me because i can afford to have one as a pet now, but the principle is very frustrating.

It's different if you're working with a new morph and trying to see what combos look like, but something that a bunch of other people already have? It just seems like a recipe for disaster no matter what the morph or species if everyone has the same idea.

 

[chrisis697]

yeah just check out freedom breeders list of available banana morphs or should I say coral glows they have them listed as. the whole male maker thing also did not help the drop in price. hopefully the females will hold their value a little more. We will see this season.

 

[CombatWombat]

I love my ball pythons despite whatever list price they come down to. They are awesome animals and very docile...which makes them great for educating people about herps and destroying the stigma of reptile keepers.

If you mention that you have a snake that pounds down a rabbit every week. People who aren't into reptiles are a little afraid but if you have a snake that tolerates being held even by children...that's something. I know a lot of people have turned away from ball pythons because they think they are boring and overdone and even call those who keep them "noobs" and I don't think that should be a idea people should be referring too when it's an animal people feel good about keeping.

I just feel once it finally comes down to a point where morphs aren't worth as much as they once were...it will weed out flippers and people only in the hobby for money. It might take a while but it will eventually happen. Also keep in mind, there's more ball python morph combinations then species of snakes.

Eh just my 2 cents.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

if you have a snake that tolerates being held even by children...

It's funny you say that, we sold a normal to a guy a few weeks ago and he said his daughter (I think she's probably 7) loved to just carry her around in her pocket. I don't know why, it just made me happy to hear something like that. It's not like we made money on the normal (pretty sure we lost money), but the end result was still awesome.

I also used to have 4 girls that lived below me who were terrified of snakes. I never managed to convince the parents, but all of the kids ended up loving them. One of their dads even asked his daughter if she wanted to get one as a pet. It's very cool when you can change someone's complete perspective in a matter of minutes. Of course I'd love to make money, but seeing how happy people are with their snakes is still super rewarding.

 

[CombatWombat]

Of course I'd love to make money, but seeing how happy people are with their snakes is still super rewarding.

 

[AbsoluteApril]

I think it's less of the market bombing and more of breeders being irresponsible idiots. I see people who are selling 20 bananas and about 50 total banana combos. It's not hard to see that they bought a banana male or two, bred it into everything they had thinking they were going to get rich, and now are sitting on the surplus they all created. Big surprise, everyone else had the same idea and now no one can sell them.

Wasn't it one (possibly two) big name breeders that bought into the banana game early and, like you said, bred them to pretty much everything they had, held back, then flooded the market. Now other people that had been waiting to get into it could, bred to get their investment back but by then prices were already tanking quick.

It seems like it's some big names and the 'get rich quick' little guys that don't seem to follow many ethical breeding standards and it's the rest of us hobby breeders that get screwed because of it. They are 'sound business men' apparently.


I guess all any of us can do is try to support the people we feel do it responsibly and continue to pound the drums and try to explain why it's the best way to proceed for the overall health of the market in the long run.

/vent over

 

[John kimball]

Yea I saw a pastel banana for $300 about a month ago. It's unfortunate because it's SUCH a cool looking morph, and people just tanked it. It's great for me because i can afford to have one as a pet now, but the principle is very frustrating.

It's different if you're working with a new morph and trying to see what combos look like, but something that a bunch of other people already have? It just seems like a recipe for disaster no matter what the morph or species if everyone has the same idea.

I had a few breeding plans for my banana...now he's basically a beautiful, awesome personalitied pet. My first ever clutch next year I'll breed him once to make banana het clowns for my fire clown girl so I can make banana and banana fire clowns in the future. I'll also make a banana sunset one day

 

[CombatWombat]

It seems like it's some big names and the 'get rich quick' little guys that don't seem to follow many ethical breeding standards and it's the rest of us hobby breeders that get screwed because of it. They are 'sound business men' apparently.


I guess all any of us can do is try to support the people we feel do it responsibly and continue to pound the drums and try to explain why it's the best way to proceed for the overall health of the market in the long run.

/vent over

I just want a banana for my own sake. I think they are absolutely beautiful.

I do have a dream of hitting a world's first one day. That's the one dream I have in keeping ball pythons (well other than educating people about snakes). But I want to do so responsibly and make sure the animals are well taken care of and treated properly instead of pounding them full of rats and getting them up to breeder size in an unreasonable amount of time. I'm actually hoping to start selling off some of my ball python babies this next year with my Fiance on Fauna. We probably won't make much money but it will be an adventure.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

Wasn't it one (possibly two) big name breeders that bought into the banana game early and, like you said, bred them to pretty much everything they had, held back, then flooded the market. Now other people that had been waiting to get into it could, bred to get their investment back but by then prices were already tanking quick.

It seems like it's some big names and the 'get rich quick' little guys that don't seem to follow many ethical breeding standards and it's the rest of us hobby breeders that get screwed because of it. They are 'sound business men' apparently.


I guess all any of us can do is try to support the people we feel do it responsibly and continue to pound the drums and try to explain why it's the best way to proceed for the overall health of the market in the long run.

/vent over

I watched a youtube video fairly recently where a guy was explaining his breeding "how to", and they just cycle a male through a different female every day of the week (it was one or maybe two days of rest in between). I just don't get it. Not only are you limiting yourself with morphs, you have no genetic diversity. That's why people end up with so much inbreeding and so many genetic defects in hatchlings, they don't take the time to think about what they're doing. But beyond that, it's like you said April, it just screws over anyone else trying to work with that morph.

I just want to make some cool combos that stand out, not pump genes into everything just because I can.

 

[CombatWombat]

That's why people end up with so much inbreeding and so many genetic defects in hatchlings, they don't take the time to think about what they're doing.

This is exactly why I don't like working with the spider gene.
Yes, it looks cool but why would you want to breed something that is going to have a head wobble and be miserable because of it. It's a dead end too because spiderxspider=dead.

Sorry but I think it's stupid

 

[John kimball]

This is exactly why I don't like working with the spider gene.
Yes, it looks cool but why would you want to breed something that is going to have a head wobble and be miserable because of it. It's a dead end too because spiderxspider=dead.

Sorry but I think it's stupid

I feel the same way. I don't think it's cute or adds character as I've heard people say about the bad wobblers. It might be a little extreme of an example but it's like a human having children knowing his kids will have autism?!?! That's NOT cute.

 

[j_dunlavy]

I think it's less of the market bombing and more of breeders being irresponsible idiots. I see people who are selling 20 bananas and about 50 total banana combos. It's not hard to see that they bought a banana male or two, bred it into everything they had thinking they were going to get rich, and now are sitting on the surplus they all created. Big surprise, everyone else had the same idea and now no one can sell them.

We don't pair any male with more than two females (only one in most cases). Not only is this for genetic diversity if we want to cross lines later, it's also because we don't want 500 of the same morph. It's just silly to put all of your ball python eggs in one basket IMO.

Exactly. I have ball pythons and several other species for the sake of diversity (and because they are cool). With balls, I have a plethora of projects from a variety of genetic backgrounds to keep the gene pool fresh as my projects come to a head. It bothers me that there are so many bananas around... It drives me Bananas (sorry, I had to). As a result I have trouble finding simple morphs or combos that even look nice (by my standards) because of all the shotgun breeding (1 co-dom male to 10 normal females) that has diluted some morphs; at least try to select for the best and brightest animals to breed; when was the last time you saw a really clean pastel?

I love my ball pythons despite whatever list price they come down to. They are awesome animals and very docile...which makes them great for educating people about herps and destroying the stigma of reptile keepers.

yes, yes, yes

It's funny you say that, we sold a normal to a guy a few weeks ago and he said his daughter (I think she's probably 7) loved to just carry her around in her pocket. I don't know why, it just made me happy to hear something like that. It's not like we made money on the normal (pretty sure we lost money), but the end result was still awesome.

I also used to have 4 girls that lived below me who were terrified of snakes. I never managed to convince the parents, but all of the kids ended up loving them. One of their dads even asked his daughter if she wanted to get one as a pet. It's very cool when you can change someone's complete perspective in a matter of minutes. Of course I'd love to make money, but seeing how happy people are with their snakes is still super rewarding.

This is the entire point of reptile keeping that has seemed to have gotten lost along the way for some; keeping reptiles because they are awesome and enjoyable creatures; keeping them for the love of them. I am glad to hear about that girl, she loves her pet and will likely love snakes for life.

Wasn't it one (possibly two) big name breeders that bought into the banana game early and, like you said, bred them to pretty much everything they had, held back, then flooded the market. Now other people that had been waiting to get into it could, bred to get their investment back but by then prices were already tanking quick.

It seems like it's some big names and the 'get rich quick' little guys that don't seem to follow many ethical breeding standards and it's the rest of us hobby breeders that get screwed because of it. They are 'sound business men' apparently.


I guess all any of us can do is try to support the people we feel do it responsibly and continue to pound the drums and try to explain why it's the best way to proceed for the overall health of the market in the long run.

/vent over

once again, April is spot on.

 

[John kimball]

If I ever breed a boy to more than 2 girls it's mostly for hold backs to further my pet snake collection and make some new combos to expand into further projects.