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Bad Guy Jim Flaherty of the Chameleon Company

Dennis Hultman said:
To everyone else. This is a lesson you must take head of. Even if you don't do something willfully, (Willfully in this case would to be to purposely release a species and have it survive for more than what, a season?) and report on the awe factor of what was discovered you better be prepared for what your fellow hobbyists/competitors or people who just plain don't like you will do to sink you.
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This is a very thoughtful post. Some people (I'm guilty too at times) post opinions without sometimes thinking through what the bigger picture might be.
Especially when the action is unintentional and no scam is being perpetrated, the warrior mode is not called for.
People should feel free to post information here and discuss what they have seen. When they get pounded, answers and solutions evaporate.
As long as they do no intentional harm, a gentler approach may be better. That way, the next guy who has something to say won't be afraid to post.

Here's an idea: Propose a party and chameleon posse where the wild chams are rounded up and carefully returned to Jim where he could sell them. (This isn't the only possible idea for those who want to find fault, but if Jim wanted them rounded up and I lived in Florida I'd definitely collect some for him in return for beer and pizza:D)
 
Good ol Florida.
As far as panther chameleons, if only I could find panthers here in Monterey County.
I'm going to sleep tonight and dream of catching chameleons in the wild and not paying insane prices :yawn: :sleeping:
 
jusmebabee said:
Good ol Florida.
As far as panther chameleons, if only I could find panthers here in Monterey County.
I'm going to sleep tonight and dream of catching chameleons in the wild and not paying insane prices :yawn: :sleeping:
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Make an offer to Jim, maybe he will let you keep in out of every 5 you find or something. Even with air fare it could be a great deal for you AND him.
 
Perhaps the rules for posting a bad guy BOI should be amended to only include instances where people are scammed or where animals are abused.

I have outlined my stance on the subject as well as provided evidence of such. Are not people that are scammed on a mission to get the word out?? Do you condemn them for sharing the evidence and spreading the word around?

Academic research has been provided in posts 78 and 79.

This is so much bigger than being ripped off for a few bucks, and if you fail to realize that, then I am not surprised the government is slowly placing many restrictions on the industry.
 
Agoralyx said:
2003: Populations of C. calyptratus are identified as successfully breeding in Florida (perhaps even more successfully than in their native range).
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Is Jim responsible for all of them being released in the wild in the early 2000's?
I wish the species on the Hawaiian islands were there while I was growing up.I was catching all the other things that were brought in from outside sources,one being the Philippines.:mah:
 
jishillencik said:
This is so much bigger than being ripped off for a few bucks, and if you fail to realize that, then I am not surprised the government is slowly placing many restrictions on the industry.
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I'm having a hard time finding in my post where I debated or taken a stance on releasing animals is a negative, positive or debating the repercussions or lack of them for that act.

What I did debate is the actual action that the accused is being charged with to form a opinion if he is a bad guy to do business with. Which is what all readers and contributors to threads do.

While the repercussions of accidental or purposeful releases is a topic related to thread only because the target of this thread is being labeled a bad guy because a non-willful act of a release, the thread has lead to more of a general discussion on what effects it has on the environment. Seems to me that is more of a general thread topic in a discussion group than evidence of a bad guy in this instance.

You are stating in this thread that people shouldn't do business with Jim because he had a accidental release that occurred. That he reported it to the community and that he was surprised they survived the winter. That makes him a bad guy?

If he prefaced those statements with something PC
term used to condemn language, actions, or policies as calculated to offend or upset any group of people in society.
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like I'm so distraught that I harmed the environment with a accidental release but I was amazed they survived, would it make it all better?

What he did was describe a observation of a event that took place that resulted in something he did not expect. He stated it as a matter of fact.

That's the complaint. I'm not arguing its "bad" that it happened or not. If this was a general discussion I would chime in on that topic.

What is being stated here is Jim's a bad guy because the release happened no-matter the cause. I'm sorry that doesn't hold water as to why Jim is a bad guy and every hypocrite out there that has had a escape isn't one as well.

Perhaps the rules for posting a bad guy BOI should be amended to only include instances where people are scammed or where animals are abused.

I have outlined my stance on the subject as well as provided evidence of such. Are not people that are scammed on a mission to get the word out?? Do you condemn them for sharing the evidence and spreading the word around?
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There is no need for such foolery to limit peoples opinion. Some people agree with the reason to label him unfit for this business and others not. Just because some people feel your evidence lacking in stating he is a bad guy doesn't mean you can't post your position. It also doesn't mean that the same people might have those exact same opinions as you on introduced species. Or maybe not..

In this particular instance I (That's Personally) don't think the evidence posted suggests what your stating. Separately the topic of the ecosystem, repercussions, what's good for the community is a broader topic and not necessarily a focal point of what a person necessarily did in this instance to be labeled a bad guy.
 
If one had been involved in the original facebook post, it would have been seen that Jim was almost bragging about having a "Florida Locale". He stated originally that they were found a good distance away from his facility, then it turns out that he was actually finding them on his land due to repeated years of escapees.

At what point will he bring these onto the market and they end up sold to some unsuspecting person as a pure paradalis locale? There are already enough issues in paradalis breeding due to dishonest people selling females that are a different locale than they were advertised as.
 
rds040800 said:
At what point will he bring these onto the market and they end up sold to some unsuspecting person as a pure paradalis locale?
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Maybe at no point. Making up possible future bad actions to bolster a bad guy thread is lame IMHO.
 
Lucille said:
Maybe at no point. Making up possible future bad actions to bolster a bad guy thread is lame IMHO.
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I am sure there are already some out there, as the guy has had may issues of selling crosses stated as pure locales. When you put 4 female chameleons in the same enclosure, how do you know what eggs belong to which female? And my comment was more the fact of him using the "florida locale" as a marketing gimminc, which is where the original FB post was going when everything coming out about his animals escaping before he deleted it.

It is interesting in itself that paradalis are able to survive in Florida, but it does not suprise me. The impact of chameleons on the Florida ecosystem will not be known for many years. It took a few decades before pythons were considered an issue in Florida, as there is info showing them to have been there for a while, possibly as far back as during Veitnam. There are wild populations of tegus and monitors in Florida also, which will likely be another victim of some form of legislation to restrict them due to their thriving presence in Florida.
 
If an officer working at a nuclear missile silo accidentally set one off, does that mean he is inherently a "bad" person?? Probably not, but they definitely have no business continuing to serve in the military.

Ignorance is a poor excuse for negligence. It's not a matter of one or two animals escaping, but rather allowing enough animals to escape in order to start a breeding population.
 
I don't feel like quoting Elizabeth Kinde's long posts, and I know very well that the Florida populations are being "studied". I participated in a survey or two, as well.

But I still see no findings of invasive status.
 
Surveys on the established Oustelat's and Veiled chameleon populations only started in 2011 and 2013 respectively, both dates being 10+ years after the species were first documented in Florida. 2013 is the same year that a Panther population was first described. Following that pattern, it will be at least 2023 before a Panther survey is initiated. Does a lack of findings (expected, since it is a newly described species) excuse a lack of concern?

The other chameleon species in both Florida AND Hawai'i are pervasive, prolific and preying on noxious and endangered native species AND adapting to conditions atypical of their native habitat. So folks should just wait ten more years to see if the same thing happens with the Panther population?

imo, seeding non-native species for harvest is a bigger concern than just a single person BOI, but that doesn't mean that the single person BOI isn't warranted.
 
Agoralyx said:
imo, seeding non-native species for harvest is a bigger concern than just a single person BOI, but that doesn't mean that the single person BOI isn't warranted.
Click to expand...

I might be comprehending this wrong but the way that statement is strung together appears to make the second part of your statement a fact in this case that the person this thread is about did exactly what you stated in the first part of the statement above. He seeded non-native species for the purpose of harvest.

In part in this particular case it was established that some were recaptured and sold wholesale. My understanding is that is the only fact presented. Not a case for intentional "seeding".

To extrapolate further to say this individual established a non-captive colony for the purpose of harvest isn't established in the text I have read.

I don't know if you were implying that here or just making a statement that the first part of your statement was more important but a BOI thread is still warranted for the individual here regardless of how the release happened, in your opinion.
 
Clarification then. The two statements are neither inclusive, nor exclusive.

The comment about seeding is in reference to the data that I posted earlier (following the request of a number of members looking for scientific data on the subject of invasive chameleon species) wherein the agencies studying the spread of chameleons outside their non-native habitat explicitly reference seeding as occurring and exacerbating the spread of these potentially harmful populations in Florida and Hawai'i.

I believe the seeding that they reference is a concerning practice which should not be dismissed because of a lack of scientific data since the issue is a relatively new one and the data is absent simply because of the novelty of the situation (specifically in relation to chameleons). This comment is more in reply to other thread-goers who seem unconcerned with the growth of the chameleon populations, dismissing them as harmless, or undeserving of concern simply because of a lack of scientific data. That concern is regardless of Flaherty's purported involvement.

To my understanding, this thread was started to bring attention to what appears to be Flaherty's seeding practice, or, at the very least, his support and exploitation of the perpetuation of non-native species. I have no evidence to confirm or deny his involvement, but I feel that if his public statements imply he is perpetuating, or otherwise supporting the seeding of a non-native species, that at least warrants public awareness. The public can then extrapolate whether his documented statements and practices are ones which they want to support, either financially or by word of mouth.
 
1 The vast majority of people come to the BOI to research buying/ selling activities.
2 Accidental or even intentional "seeding" seems to me to have almost no relevance to buying/ selling activities.
3 When the uproar is not currently supported by any actual evidence the "seeding" is harmful, then there is even less relevance.
4 When you take a run at a guy with a good rep as far as buying/ selling activities goes you should have more than irrelevant PETA type posturing.
 
Seeding is purposeful/willful. I am not seeing that from what has been provided, but that is the direction some seem to want to push this.
 
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