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Bad Guy Jim Flaherty of the Chameleon Company

Pasodama said:
Posting the definitions, and molding/interpreting them as something other, is "overreaching" in what the term 'release' actually means.

Release is purposely done by someone who has the intent of releasing and, thereby, actively does something that enables the purposeful release.

Let's take the example of releasing inmates.
If we have an escape, from jail, we do not call him/her a released inmate. We call that inmate an escapee (one who has escaped).
A released inmate is where we purposely unlock a jail cell, purposely open the jail cell door (to enable inmate to walk out), purposely place them back into civilian clothing, and purposely unlock & open an outside door to enable the, now, ex-inmate to leave the facility.
IOW A release is done via purposeful actions, of the keeper, toward that end.
An escape is not done via purposeful actions, of the keeper, toward that end. It is done via the escapee's own actions by taking advantage of a flaw that it/they have found.
Click to expand...

If the structure of the jail cell allows for a single inmate to take advantage of a design flaw, it is the fault of the person that designed it. Jim designed the cages, which in turn allowed for a large number (25% of missed clutches) to escape. That frequency of escapees would not stand at a jail and the person responsible would be held accountable.

You're arguing whether or not the release is intentional. I do not believe it was (at first), however that does not mean he is not responsible for it. Intent is not described in the definition of release, but please continue to argue the syntax of my response.
 
sapphira80 said:
The FWC doesn't use google to define their rules, and the difference between "escape" and "release" is obviously even to children. If arguments have devolved to point of using semantics to prove a point, I think it's clear whose side the evidence falls on.



Wasn't this whole issue about ChamCo supposedly releasing panthers? Which was investigated by the FWC? And evidently the claim was unfounded since FWC took no action.



I don't understand what the goal is now? People wanted ChamCo investigated by the FWC? Okay, well that happened. If you continue the argument after resolution had been reached (and according to the FWC it has) then you're turning your criticism into a witch hunt.



Repeating over and over that someone had done something that the state authority has concluded that they did not do does not give anymore validity to your position. Neither does bringing up a supposed transaction that occurred five years ago, for which no evidence has been presented.
Click to expand...

As I have stated in post 205, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse. I'm just fact checking Jim on a couple of outlandish claims he has made.

You have your opinion, and are entitled to it.
 
jishillencik said:
If the structure of the jail cell allows for a single inmate to take advantage of a design flaw, it is the fault of the person that designed it. Jim designed the cages, which in turn allowed for a large number (25% of missed clutches) to escape. That frequency of escapees would not stand at a jail and the person responsible would be held accountable.

You're arguing whether or not the release is intentional. I do not believe it was (at first), however that does not mean he is not responsible for it. Intent is not described in the definition of release, but please continue to argue the syntax of my response.
Click to expand...

This is so stupid. Deb made a valid explanation of the difference of terms. Meanwhile, you choose to equate the responsibility to keep inmates contained as the same for chameleons. That is dumber than a dumb stump.

Next time one of the critters in your keep gets loose (and lets assume that you have ten, so the loss of one, even if just for a day, is 10%), I hope that you recall your position here.
 
sapphira80 said:
The FWC doesn't use google to define their rules, and the difference between "escape" and "release" is obviously even to children. If arguments have devolved to point of using semantics to prove a point, I think it's clear whose side the evidence falls on.

Wasn't this whole issue about ChamCo supposedly releasing panthers? Which was investigated by the FWC? And evidently the claim was unfounded since FWC took no action.

I don't understand what the goal is now? People wanted ChamCo investigated by the FWC? Okay, well that happened. If you continue the argument after resolution had been reached (and according to the FWC it has) then you're turning your criticism into a witch hunt.

Repeating over and over that someone had done something that the state authority has concluded that they did not do does not give anymore validity to your position. Neither does bringing up a supposed transaction that occurred five years ago, for which no evidence has been presented.
Click to expand...

Thanks Erin. You nailed it. The problem with Josh, and his ilk, as they are clearly still his ilk, is that it was never about the truth. Never about being sure that the process was followed properly. It was the typical, and often practiced theme at CGW, to malign others in the business, as that is how they elevated themselves. That is why the findings of FWC mean nothing to them. They apparently lack the talent to achieve and advance on their merit.

Put another way, "haters gotta hate".

Take care.
 
The FWC came out and did a check to see if your current enclosures were in violation of any guidelines. They did not go out and do a wildlife survey of the surrounding area to see if there are any nonnative chameleons roaming around. They definitely did not go out and do a wildlife survey when by your estimates 25% of hatchlings were escaping. That they checked and gave you a green light at this moment is far from the be-all end-all for this situation you assume it to be. Your attitude to this whole situation has been stated to be nonchalant by quite a few, and it is the best way to describe it. Anybody who truly cares about the environment, and about the reptile hobby persisting without a black mark on it should be absolutely mortified that they allowed this to happen in the first time. In a situation like this it is not simply "Whoops! I'll do a better job next time!" You refuse to admit that you did something very wrong here, or realize what you did. Instead you go on acting like there is a pitchfork mob wrongly chasing you around.
 
I'm not sure exactly how to go about checking FWC finding in another state, but Jim has not offered any REAL proof of his claims other than words. How about screen shots or pictures of your permits? That would clarify things and add credibility to what you say. Although, I have a feeling you are going to claim some sort of technological ignorance or just ignore my post as you seem to have done to others in this thread.
 
Herpguy11 said:
The FWC came out and did a check to see if your current enclosures were in violation of any guidelines. They did not go out and do a wildlife survey of the surrounding area to see if there are any nonnative chameleons roaming around. They definitely did not go out and do a wildlife survey when by your estimates 25% of hatchlings were escaping. That they checked and gave you a green light at this moment is far from the be-all end-all for this situation you assume it to be. Your attitude to this whole situation has been stated to be nonchalant by quite a few, and it is the best way to describe it. Anybody who truly cares about the environment, and about the reptile hobby persisting without a black mark on it should be absolutely mortified that they allowed this to happen in the first time. In a situation like this it is not simply "Whoops! I'll do a better job next time!" You refuse to admit that you did something very wrong here, or realize what you did. Instead you go on acting like there is a pitchfork mob wrongly chasing you around.
Click to expand...

DavidBeard said:
I'm not sure exactly how to go about checking FWC finding in another state, but Jim has not offered any REAL proof of his claims other than words. How about screen shots or pictures of your permits? That would clarify things and add credibility to what you say. Although, I have a feeling you are going to claim some sort of technological ignorance or just ignore my post as you seem to have done to others in this thread.
Click to expand...

Folks. Behold two posters who pretend to know the facts, but are about as ignorant as one can be, much less two. Who fabricate their version of the truth.

Here's what you two can do. Contact FWC yourselves. Tell them that you know that there are still chameleons out and about, and that they just did not look hard enough, even though they were here for 3 hours. Tell them too how you are certain that I have no license as well. They will laugh at you both, and likely tell you to come down and make a sworn affidavit.

Don't you two have a 9-11 conspiracy meeting to get to ?
 
Lol wow 3 hours? That is definitely enough to comb the surrounding areas. Anyways, that was not the point I was getting at. The point is that just because the FWC came and declared your enclosures secure at that time does not prove in any way shape or form that no wrongdoing has occurred ever. You keep acting like because th FWC came once it proves that you never negligently allowed animals to escape.

Also, what David Beard posted above is a very good point. I am not saying that the FWC likely did not come and inspect. However, you have posted zero evidence or proof that they did so. If you make claims, it is your responsibility to post proof.
 
Audio

Hopefully this works. It is an MP2 file of Robert Nichols. It is a message left on my home phone after midnight about a month ago. The weekend that this thread was put up by Josh Illincek, after discussion about such over in the miscreant CGW forum. Will try to get an MP3 conversion done later, if anyone asks for such. This is the only Nichols audio that I will post in this thread though. All others will be in the Robert Nichols thread.

Here is a transcript of the message left by the 48 year-old from Simi Valley, CA., for those who cannot play the audio, or for those who can, but want to sing along ! OBTW, we do not have a "store". We are a breeding facility on a large plot of land in Polk County, FL. Not open to the public.

Hey crusty. That sure didn't go the way you wanted it, did it ! That turned around on you on a dime, didn't it ! Now Fish and Wildlife is coming to your store because you admitted letting invasive species go. Knowingly ! What a dumbf**k. All because you couldn't sell them f**king (inaudible) crosses. I love the way you said 100% locale when you don't have 100% locale. All your s**t is crossed dickhead. Have fun speaking with the Florida Fish and Wildlife f**kface
Click to expand...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
There may be many ways to open/play, depending on your system. On my PC, with Windows 8, I open it by right-clicking it, then selecting "open in new window". It then downloads quickly, and I then click the download to play on my windows media player.
 
Chameleon Company said:
There may be many ways to open/play, depending on your system. On my PC, with Windows 8, I open it by right-clicking it, then selecting "open in new window". It then downloads quickly, and I then click the download to play on my windows media player.
Click to expand...
The recording works, on my Samsung gs5 you have to download it and play it with one of the apps factory in your phone. Either way, after reading both threads all the way threw, haven't got to the nicholis thread atm as I was catching up on 3 or more pages here, the way he acts and some of his followers to me he has no credibility. Even if what he said was true the way he acts and his followers make you not want to listen to them. You may have a "non chalant" attitude but if you didn't and we're defensive I'm sure they would use that against you too. "Why so defensive if you did nothing wrong" I see it quite a bit.

I don't keep chams but you have said it was a mistake and tried to provide information you had learned and people went on a witch hunt against you. Had you kept it to yourself and someone found out they would be on you for that too. It seems no matter what you try to do in this hobby, hide or be transparent, someone is always going to turn it around on you. That's my 2 cents. Have a good day =)
 
Chameleon Company said:
Hopefully this works. It is an MP2 file of Robert Nichols. It is a message left on my home phone after midnight about a month ago. The weekend that this thread was put up by Josh Illincek, after discussion about such over in the miscreant CGW forum. Will try to get an MP3 conversion done later, if anyone asks for such. This is the only Nichols audio that I will post in this thread though. All others will be in the Robert Nichols thread.
Click to expand...

I am sorry, Jim, but I had to remove that attachment you placed here. There is an issue with them that might need to be addressed that I just became aware of.
 
Chameleon Company said:
No problem. You now have the necessary info to evaluate.
Click to expand...

Yes, I have done some research into the matter, with input from others as well, and am satisfied that the issue has been satisfactorily resolved.

You can post your audio file attachments again, Jim. Sorry about my flubbing this process a bit. :eek:
 
Chameleon Company said:
Hopefully this works. It is an MP2 file of Robert Nichols. It is a message left on my home phone after midnight about a month ago. The weekend that this thread was put up by Josh Illincek, after discussion about such over in the miscreant CGW forum. Will try to get an MP3 conversion done later, if anyone asks for such. This is the only Nichols audio that I will post in this thread though. All others will be in the Robert Nichols thread.

Here is a transcript of the message left by the 48 year-old from Simi Valley, CA., for those who cannot play the audio, or for those who can, but want to sing along ! OBTW, we do not have a "store". We are a breeding facility on a large plot of land in Polk County, FL. Not open to the public.

Hey crusty. That sure didn't go the way you wanted it, did it ! That turned around on you on a dime, didn't it ! Now Fish and Wildlife is coming to your store because you admitted letting invasive species go. Knowingly ! What a dumbf**k. All because you couldn't sell them f**king (inaudible) crosses. I love the way you said 100% locale when you don't have 100% locale. All your s**t is crossed dickhead. Have fun speaking with the Florida Fish and Wildlife f**kface
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

The above, and then below is the audio link. Quite legal. Thank you Robert Nichols for lacking in common sense. For anyone wondering, Mr Nichols gave up all expectation of privacy when he voluntarily left me this voicemail. It is mine now, not his. It is one of 6 calls that I have from him in the last month or so.

One way to open, and then play, is to right-click it, then select "open in another window". That downloads it quickly to my PC. Then I left click it, and Windows Media plays it. There may be many other ways, depending on device. another mentioned earlier that it played easily on their Galaxy device.
 

Attachments

  • Rob Nichols 2nd recording.mp2
    955.3 KB · Views: 138
I really don't see what this audio file has to do with this thread? This thread is about allegations against Jim Flaherty of the Chameleon Company, not this other guys Rob. Wasn't there already another thread made about him? I don't think anybody is defending some guy using rude language against Jim Flaherty, but this just detracts from the actual purpose here.
 
Are these guys really advocating for a species that they breed be put on the invasive species list.:shootfoot You guys know that if that happens it's only a matter of time before they are added to to the LACEY ACT.

Do you CGW guys think that all the people who had animals escape during hurricanes deserve to be fined? Can you really not see the difference between accidental escape and willful release?

I don't normally post on the boi but after reading this I really could not believe some of the things you guys are saying. What do you think will happen if peta and groups like them will do when they see Breeders/Hobbyist saying that the very species that they breed should be considered invasive.
 
LOL ... proof of what? That Jim Flaherty/Chameleon Company/Cham Co has been lawfully engaged in business breeding/selling chameleons for years? Proof that the Chammandos called the Authoritah and the Authoritah cleared him?

Perhaps we should ask the same of Rob Nichols or any of those other Farcebook breeders/vendors. Do they all have appropriate permits? Do they all collect appropriate city, county or state sales taxes required where they reside?

Do they then all report the income derived through their sales to the appropriate city, county or state taxation departments where they reside, where required and applicable? AND the IRS? Should we start demanding proof they all are within their local and national laws?
Hmm, something to think about ...

Jim is no more obligated to post "proof" than Rob Nichols is to post "proof" that he's complied with taxation laws applicable to his resident state, county, or city and reported income from his "business" to those local agencies that may require it, AND the IRS for all the years he has bred and sold for profit.

Might be a good idea to just let this crap die. Jim's inadvertent escapees have hardly doomed the future of Florida fauna or flora and all this other BS is like personal high school drama. Nichols has a problem, uh yeah. Obvious.

Jim ain't a villain or ecological terrorist.

If anyone even checks in occasionally at FFWCC, there is a very recent update on invasive Monitors, not deadly chams. :rolleyes:
 
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