Bad Guy MEL KRUGER - CROOK

[Thenotoriousdud]

Lucille my point is this, Alex actions can be deemed a mistake on his part just as easily as they can be attributed to some form of shadiness. I do not wish to live in a world where ones "mistakes" intentional or otherwise provide ample for their poor treatment later on. I'm sure in most cases, if we look hard enough, we can find a form of this "possible shadiness" defense. I'm sorry, but I can't see how it can be said that the OP got what he deserved. The only argument that exists is really," Alex MAY be hiding something and he MAY have tried to obtain guns he knew he shouldn't have, so we should withdraw support for him based on that? All he DID in fact do wrong to me is not pack that snake for shipment. Ownership fully taken and he was more than willing to alter the deal to make up for it.

 

[bcr229]

I've traded for AKs, ARs, and all sorts of rifles. My FFL dealer receives and hands gem over to me with the legal specs. The last time, modified the AK to reflect the 'new' NY restrictions. You can assume there something shady all you want. If there was would I be creating such a storm and making this so public?

Who waved off shipping the guns initially because they weren't NY legal?

 

[Lucille]

Lucille my point is this, Alex actions can be deemed a mistake

It can be deemed a lot of things, but it is for sure a breach of the contract they made.
Alex continues to attempt to breach, he proposed a trade for the pellet gun, Kruger accepted. I would think that a week or so would be reasonable time for the shipping of the pellet gun, yet Alex is already trying to make a different deal.

Kruger certainly has his bad points, but both parties have handled this very poorly.

 

[Black Adder]

As much as I hate to say it it does seem that both Alex and Kruger agreed a deal at last and now it looks like Alex is trying to renege on that said agreed deal.
As long as Kruger upholds his part and ships Alex the said pellet gun then it is done with and Kruger has every right to do whatever he now feels like with the snakes including selling them at a HUGE profit .
Alex....you should really now just limit yourself to working with Kruger to send the pellet gun as agreed to end this once and for all, get that done and its over. Any further wrangling on your part at this stage is just making you look worse and worse I am afraid
A terrible deal IMO but ONE in which you both agreed to at least in this forum!

 

[Flashpoint]

It can be deemed a lot of things, but it is for sure a breach of the contract they made.
Alex continues to attempt to breach, he proposed a trade for the pellet gun, Kruger accepted. I would think that a week or so would be reasonable time for the shipping of the pellet gun, yet Alex is already trying to make a different deal.

Kruger certainly has his bad points, but both parties have handled this very poorly.

Kruger may have accepted but from the looks and sounds of it, he has made no attempt to ship the agreed upon pellet gun. Snide remarks about the show, no shipping information or plans being made posted by Alex. He's clearly deflecting the topic in the screenshot Alex posted earlier by accusing him of homosexual fantasies about him. Not to mention Kruger coming back on here only to accuse everyone of being BOI trollers and drama queens. To me, that's not the behavior of a cooperative party wanting to finish the deal. It's very combative.

 

[Fangthane]

The only argument that exists is really," Alex MAY be hiding something and he MAY have tried to obtain guns he knew he shouldn't have, so we should withdraw support for him based on that?

Good points. It's noteworthy that those who are so quick to spout legalese while strongly implying that the OP intended criminal activity, are going so far out of their way to forget about one of the most important principles of our (broken) criminal justice system: Presumption of Innocence. If we're to try to treat this as a criminal court case, let's at least do it in a realistic manner. The only really relevant facts we have all show Kruger to be a slimy individual who is selling animals for which he hasn't provided any type of payment; animals for which there's no compelling reason to buy into the idea that he even has any intentions of paying. So many are so quick to take someone to task for spending money received on animals that they'd failed to send to their buyer's satisfaction, yet this situation is somehow different? No matter how you want to spin it, we still have a deal that hasn't been consummated.

It's also been clearly shown that Kruger has shown equal willingness to lie to both his customers and those who've read this thread - indisputably shown; no speculation required. If anyone's earned even the slightest degree of benefit of doubt, surely, it's anyone but Kruger. I'm sure the shared speculation about the OP's supposedly "shady" motives is a wonderful opportunity to pass some karmic attaboys back and forth, but it's moot and adds nothing to the relevant, salient points of the situation at hand.

Alex continues to attempt to breach, he proposed a trade for the pellet gun, Kruger accepted. I would think that a week or so would be reasonable time for the shipping of the pellet gun, yet Alex is already trying to make a different deal.

What you may laughably refer to as repeated "breaches" of contract, others may see as more examples of the OP's willingness to give Kruger every opportunity to follow through with some sort of mutually-agreeable resolution. When someone "agrees" to a resolution and subsequently chooses to drop communication, are we to ignore their well-established lack of credibility and assume that they're finally done playing games?

Some of you seem to be making a concerted effort to do exactly what you'd accuse others of: muddying waters. Even if we're going to live in the fantasy world where Kruger is owed anywhere near what he thinks he's owed for time and feeders used, I believe it's already been shown that there's an extremely high likelihood that his subsequent sales of the disputed property already more than covers the laughable fee he's demanded; yet the OP still has absolutely nothing. Can't help thinking that some people in this thread are doing some interesting contortions in their efforts to not see the forest for the trees. All that's missing is someone spearheading another one of their email smear campaigns against yet another victim.

 

[Bronx Boa]

Who waved off shipping the guns initially because they weren't NY legal?

Who else? Kruger.


The BronX BoA

 

[Bronx Boa]

Good points. It's noteworthy that those who are so quick to spout legalese while strongly implying that the OP intended criminal activity, are going so far out of their way to forget about one of the most important principles of our (broken) criminal justice system: Presumption of Innocence. If we're to try to treat this as a criminal court case, let's at least do it in a realistic manner. The only really relevant facts we have all show Kruger to be a slimy individual who is selling animals for which he hasn't provided any type of payment; animals for which there's no compelling reason to buy into the idea that he even has any intentions of paying. So many are so quick to take someone to task for spending money received on animals that they'd failed to send to their buyer's satisfaction, yet this situation is somehow different? No matter how you want to spin it, we still have a deal that hasn't been consummated.



It's also been clearly shown that Kruger has shown equal willingness to lie to both his customers and those who've read this thread - indisputably shown; no speculation required. If anyone's earned even the slightest degree of benefit of doubt, surely, it's anyone but Kruger. I'm sure the shared speculation about the OP's supposedly "shady" motives is a wonderful opportunity to pass some karmic attaboys back and forth, but it's moot and adds nothing to the relevant, salient points of the situation at hand.





What you may laughably refer to as repeated "breaches" of contract, others may see as more examples of the OP's willingness to give Kruger every opportunity to follow through with some sort of mutually-agreeable resolution. When someone "agrees" to a resolution and subsequently chooses to drop communication, are we to ignore their well-established lack of credibility and assume that they're finally done playing games?



Some of you seem to be making a concerted effort to do exactly what you'd accuse others of: muddying waters. Even if we're going to live in the fantasy world where Kruger is owed anywhere near what he thinks he's owed for time and feeders used, I believe it's already been shown that there's an extremely high likelihood that his subsequent sales of the disputed property already more than covers the laughable fee he's demanded; yet the OP still has absolutely nothing. Can't help thinking that some people in this thread are doing some interesting contortions in their efforts to not see the forest for the trees. All that's missing is someone spearheading another one of their email smear campaigns against yet another victim.

Well said.


The BronX BoA

 

[snakeman101172]

Lucille my point is this, Alex actions can be deemed a mistake on his part just as easily as they can be attributed to some form of shadiness. I do not wish to live in a world where ones "mistakes" intentional or otherwise provide ample for their poor treatment later on. I'm sure in most cases, if we look hard enough, we can find a form of this "possible shadiness" defense. I'm sorry, but I can't see how it can be said that the OP got what he deserved. The only argument that exists is really," Alex MAY be hiding something and he MAY have tried to obtain guns he knew he shouldn't have, so we should withdraw support for him based on that? All he DID in fact do wrong to me is not pack that snake for shipment. Ownership fully taken and he was more than willing to alter the deal to make up for it.

This is the point. We call Kruger "scammer" but say Alex just made a "mistake". That is perception. Here is a Fact without any perception, Alex left out the snake whether intentional or not. Upon the discovery of the snake being omitted it was not sent asap. Alex states this was because "he sensed Kruger stalling". However the Fact without perception is Alex was not allowed to have these guns by law. So nothing on Krugers ended was preventing this deal, it was the NY state gun laws. It's grand that Alex offered up a new and improved deal but that is not a deal that Kruger agreed to, nor is under any obligation to accept. Take all perceptions including your own of moral justice out of it and see this for what it is.
In closing, here is a perception for you, the more Alex posts about modified AKs and such, just shows how much knowledge he has about his laws or at the very least leans on the knowledge of his local FFL. Believe it or not I am not for or against Alex personally nor Kruger. Sometimes, and this is my opinion, but sometimes getting burned for taking a shady risk snaps you back into reality. Alex is not any less deserving of fair treatment than any other human being. However, he is not an innocent in this nor a victim. Sometimes you just have to accept responsibility for your actions and move on. This does not make Alex a bad guy he is just try to get something out of his deal.

 

[snakeman101172]

Good points. It's noteworthy that those who are so quick to spout legalese while strongly implying that the OP intended criminal activity, are going so far out of their way to forget about one of the most important principles of our (broken) criminal justice system: Presumption of Innocence. If we're to try to treat this as a criminal court case, let's at least do it in a realistic manner. The only really relevant facts we have all show Kruger to be a slimy individual who is selling animals for which he hasn't provided any type of payment; animals for which there's no compelling reason to buy into the idea that he even has any intentions of paying. So many are so quick to take someone to task for spending money received on animals that they'd failed to send to their buyer's satisfaction, yet this situation is somehow different? No matter how you want to spin it, we still have a deal that hasn't been consummated.

It's also been clearly shown that Kruger has shown equal willingness to lie to both his customers and those who've read this thread - indisputably shown; no speculation required. If anyone's earned even the slightest degree of benefit of doubt, surely, it's anyone but Kruger. I'm sure the shared speculation about the OP's supposedly "shady" motives is a wonderful opportunity to pass some karmic attaboys back and forth, but it's moot and adds nothing to the relevant, salient points of the situation at hand.


What you may laughably refer to as repeated "breaches" of contract, others may see as more examples of the OP's willingness to give Kruger every opportunity to follow through with some sort of mutually-agreeable resolution. When someone "agrees" to a resolution and subsequently chooses to drop communication, are we to ignore their well-established lack of credibility and assume that they're finally done playing games?

Some of you seem to be making a concerted effort to do exactly what you'd accuse others of: muddying waters. Even if we're going to live in the fantasy world where Kruger is owed anywhere near what he thinks he's owed for time and feeders used, I believe it's already been shown that there's an extremely high likelihood that his subsequent sales of the disputed property already more than covers the laughable fee he's demanded; yet the OP still has absolutely nothing. Can't help thinking that some people in this thread are doing some interesting contortions in their efforts to not see the forest for the trees. All that's missing is someone spearheading another one of their email smear campaigns against yet another victim.

Dan,
Let's say everything you posted is 100% fact. To start with I have NEVER sent karma in ANY fashion to ANY ONE on this site, nor EVER sent an email to anyone here personally regarding anything posted on this site EVER.
Innocent until proven guilty. Great. Alex did not send the snake. That can be called a mistake, but a mistake never rectified by Alex. States sensing delays from Kruger as the reason not to send it. These delays are HIS issue not Krugers. Kruger did not make the law preventing ownership of these weapons. At that point in time, Being adults and all who threw the wrench in the gears? my opinion of the situation is just that, my opinion. Alex has shown I believe enough knowledge since the start of this thread to know this was an attempted end run around a law. After all he "does this all the time".
I have followed your posts for a long time. I don't believe for a second from what I have read from you that you would entertain this trade for weapons without knowing the law, Alex should be held to that same standard.

 

[Fangthane]

Alex did not send the snake. That can be called a mistake, but a mistake never rectified by Alex.

Why would he send the last snake for a deal that couldn't move forward in it's current state? By making numerous counter-offers that could have easily led to an amicable resolution for both parties, I'd say it's pretty difficult to make a case for the idea that he didn't do anything to rectify his error. Kruger has been given every opportunity to follow through with some sort of trade, most if not all of which would still have led to him coming out of it waaayyyyy on top. He's chosen to continue exercising - what I believe currently amounts to - unlawful control over someone else's property.

Alex has shown I believe enough knowledge since the start of this thread to know this was an attempted end run around a law. After all he "does this all the time".

An end-around that relies entirely on an FFL dealer to either be uninformed enough to not know that they couldn't legally relinquish possession of the guns to the OP; or crooked enough to put his livelihood at stake by knowingly relinquising possession of illegal guns to the OP. With the involvement of an FFL dealer whose job is partly to provide a buffer against illegal transfers, it makes your speculation pretty flimsy.

I have followed your posts for a long time. I don't believe for a second from what I have read from you that you would entertain this trade for weapons without knowing the law, Alex should be held to that same standard.

What I would or wouldn't do isn't remotely relevant. A great many people do a great many things on a regular basis - without being fully aware of all of the incitracies of the law. You need look no further than Fauna's classified sections to see people who occasionally try to offer shipping on animals whose interstate travel is restricted by the Lacey Act. Some of those people are clearly trying to adhere to the Lacey Act by offer shipping only within their own state, which sounds good on paper until you realize that even intrastate shipments can and sometimes do cross state lines. At that point, they'd have broken a federal law. Are they inherently bad guys for doing so? Point being, there are a lot of grey areas to the law, which is why lawyers can slime so much money out of their clients. There's not much about it that's simple, which means that even well-intending people can still do stupid things.

 

[snakeman101172]

Why would he send the last snake for a deal that couldn't move forward in it's current state? By making numerous counter-offers that could have easily led to an amicable resolution for both parties, I'd say it's pretty difficult to make a case for the idea that he didn't do anything to rectify his error. Kruger has been given every opportunity to follow through with some sort of trade, most if not all of which would still have led to him coming out of it waaayyyyy on top. He's chosen to continue exercising - what I believe currently amounts to - unlawful control over someone else's property.





An end-around that relies entirely on an FFL dealer to either be uninformed enough to not know that they couldn't legally relinquish possession of the guns to the OP; or crooked enough to put his livelihood at stake by knowingly relinquising possession of illegal guns to the OP. With the involvement of an FFL dealer whose job is partly to provide a buffer against illegal transfers, it makes your speculation pretty flimsy.



What I would or wouldn't do isn't remotely relevant. A great many people do a great many things on a regular basis - without being fully aware of all of the incitracies of the law. You need look no further than Fauna's classified sections to see people who occasionally try to offer shipping on animals whose interstate travel is restricted by the Lacey Act. Some of those people are clearly trying to adhere to the Lacey Act by offer shipping only within their own state, which sounds good on paper until you realize that even intrastate shipments can and sometimes do cross state lines. At that point, they'd have broken a federal law. Are they inherently bad guys for doing so? Point being, there are a lot of grey areas to the law, which is why lawyers can slime so much money out of their clients. There's not much about it that's simple, which means that even well-intending people can still do stupid things.

As I stated earlier, not an end run around involving an FFL. Just mailed straight to him. I agree with why send the additional snake but at the point of the snake being "discovered" as missing from the shipment. There was no discussion about the law in NY. So the whole not shipping because it could not take place does not hold water in my opinion. As far as my speculation being flimsy you can simply refer to the postal service for how many arms they confiscate annually. I also agree that well intending people can make mistakes. I do disagree with that what you would do is not relevant. That is what we all base our actions on. We can agree to disagree i suppose.
Lacy Act shipping is a little different. If you are making an Intrastate shipment and your research says this is legal, you have done your diligence. If Fed Ex runs it through some other state that obligation is on them. You as the consumer are not privy to the inner workings or shipping methods or pathways that any shipper uses on any given day. That falls under competitive advantage of the shipper.
I also agree that Alex made lots of offers that again I would find way more than fair (relevance of my personal thoughts forming my opinion) that does not mean Kruger is obligated to oblige them. I feel for Alex to a limited extent and Kruger is no one I would do business with. However, just my opinion.

 

[Thenotoriousdud]

A little off topic but I have to say it, I love the fact that this discussion moves forward without deteriorating like so many others do. Good on everyone involved.

 

[Thenotoriousdud]

By the way has Kruger responded to the pellet gun solution with anything more than that "YES" he responded with?

 

[bcr229]

Who waved off shipping the guns initially because they weren't NY legal?

Who else? Kruger.

The BronX BoA

And did you tell him that your transfer dealer could alter them so that they would comply with NY laws, and then they could then be transferred to you? We do alterations for a lot of guns that get shipped to NY and CA to make them comply with state laws.

An end-around that relies entirely on an FFL dealer to either be uninformed enough to not know that they couldn't legally relinquish possession of the guns to the OP; or crooked enough to put his livelihood at stake by knowingly relinquising possession of illegal guns to the OP. With the involvement of an FFL dealer whose job is partly to provide a buffer against illegal transfers, it makes your speculation pretty flimsy.

You forgot option #3 in your analysis: the OP has indicated that his transfer FFL has the knowledge, skills, and abilities to make firearms NY-legal even if they don't arrive that way. It's legal for a NY FFL to receive both of those firearms, and it's legal for those firearms to be shipped to a NY FFL. If for some reason the FFL can't make those firearms legal, he can still sell the non-compliant firearms to an out-of-state buyer and give store credit or cash to Alex.

As I stated earlier, not an end run around involving an FFL. Just mailed straight to him.

If Alex had asked for the guns to be shipped directly to him, and not to his transfer dealer, I believe Kruger would have posted that text message.

 

[Fangthane]

Final thoughts.

As I stated earlier, not an end run around involving an FFL. Just mailed straight to him.

Huh? Unless I'm seriously confused about something, there was an FFL involved from the very beginning, in every proposed version of this transaction. If that's the case, your comment makes absolutely no sense and seems to have no basis in any plane of reality that can be confirmed within this thread. Feel free to cite whatever specific post or comment the OP may have made that indisputably shows him having any intention of bypassing FFL transfer. Are you latching on to the proposed transfer to the third party in Colorado as justification for your suspicions? Assuming that this third party would illegally mail the guns directly to the OP? I hope no one else here sees such utter nonsense as anything even vaguely resembling a reasonable/articulable suspicion.

So the whole not shipping because it could not take place does not hold water in my opinion.

True. I was mistaken in thinking that there was much less time spanning initial receipt and discovery of the illegality of the initial deal. In that, I was clearly wrong. However, given all that's transpired and Kruger's proven willingness to lie and attempt to manipulate any given situation for his own gain, it would seem that what the OP may have "sensed" about Kruger's likelihood of following through may very well have been belatedly justified by what's been presented here. Yeah, I know it's an ex post facto, chicken-or-egg scenario; but if you can play fast and loose, surely you wouldn't begrudge me the very same right.

This whole line of discussion seems to be made moot by the fact that there were subsequent negotiations and agreements reached, none of which involved the infamous 12th snake; none of which have left the OP with anything to show.

As far as my speculation being flimsy you can simply refer to the postal service for how many arms they confiscate annually.

Because some people choose to break the law, it means that we should assume that everyone will? The OP has openly advocated for FFL transfer EVERY STEP OF THE WAY. Now, you're just trolling.

If you are making an Intrastate shipment and your research says this is legal, you have done your diligence. If Fed Ex runs it through some other state that obligation is on them. You as the consumer are not privy to the inner workings or shipping methods or pathways that any shipper uses on any given day. That falls under competitive advantage of the shipper.

Oh, I'm not so sure. I'm pretty sure that it's the party who actually did the shipping who would inadvertently be in violation of the law. FedEx/UPS would simply be providing a service, while operating under the reasonable assumption that the sender was in compliance with their TOS and any applicable laws. If their due diligence didn't lead them to realize that there's a very real possibility that their package would leave the state, it can very easily be inferred that the actual sender wasn't quite diligent enough. As the legal types love to say, "ignorance is no excuse." Of course, now that it's convenient for your argument, you sure are quick to excuse it for my hypothetical scenario; but not for the actual one in this thread. Interesting.

 

[snakeman101172]

Huh? Unless I'm seriously confused about something, there was an FFL involved from the very beginning, in every proposed version of this transaction. If that's the case, your comment makes absolutely no sense and seems to have no basis in any plane of reality that can be confirmed within this thread. Feel free to cite whatever specific post or comment the OP may have made that indisputably shows him having any intention of bypassing FFL transfer. Are you latching on to the proposed transfer to the third party in Colorado as justification for your suspicions? Assuming that this third party would illegally mail the guns directly to the OP? I hope no one else here sees such utter nonsense as anything even vaguely resembling a reasonable/articulable suspicion.




True. I was mistaken in thinking that there was much less time spanning initial receipt and discovery of the illegality of the initial deal. In that, I was clearly wrong. However, given all that's transpired and Kruger's proven willingness to lie and attempt to manipulate any given situation for his own gain, it would seem that what the OP may have "sensed" about Kruger's likelihood of following through may very well have been belatedly justified by what's been presented here. Yeah, I know it's an ex post facto, chicken-or-egg scenario; but if you can play fast and loose, surely you wouldn't begrudge me the very same right.

This whole line of discussion seems to be made moot by the fact that there were subsequent negotiations and agreements reached, none of which involved the infamous 12th snake; none of which have left the OP with anything to show.



Because some people choose to break the law, it means that we should assume that everyone will? The OP has openly advocated for FFL transfer EVERY STEP OF THE WAY. Now, you're just trolling.



Oh, I'm not so sure. I'm pretty sure that it's the party who actually did the shipping who would inadvertently be in violation of the law. FedEx/UPS would simply be providing a service, while operating under the reasonable assumption that the sender was in compliance with their TOS and any applicable laws. If their due diligence didn't lead them to realize that there's a very real possibility that their package would leave the state, it can very easily be inferred that the actual sender wasn't quite diligent enough. As the legal types love to say, "ignorance is no excuse." Of course, now that it's convenient for your argument, you sure are quick to excuse it for my hypothetical scenario; but not for the actual one in this thread. Interesting.

There was plenty of discussions and offers made by Alex. Agreed. none agreed to by Kruger. You know that whole please refer us to the exact post showing Kruger agreeing to anything prior to the pellet gun. I am sure of the shipping issue as much as you may not be, That is my realm of business. has been for over 20 years. I never inferred that because some ship guns illegally therefore all do it. I am latching on to nothing. That is simply an opinion whether you agree with it or not. Play as fast and loose as you would like thats what this is for. To debate the issue at hand. I have no argument that needs any convenience. Alex didn't ship correctly first. Then blamed the delays for not receiving his guns on Kruger. Again, Alex states he trades for guns and boas all the time yet falls quickly on oops I didn't know. You or I for instance not being up on laws in NY pertaining to guns would be somewhat understandable. Especially if we were not into guns. If you take the knowledge that he lives in that state, does these trades all the time, and needs to obtain more weapons to get them grandfathered in, coupled with the horribly lopsided trade he was going to make for them, does not take much for me to draw the conclusion that he may have had other motives from the start. I appreciate your condescending tone but you are wasting it on me. I would never do business with Kruger or Alex under any circumstances. I am not a lawyer nor care one way or another how it all pans out. Alex is for sure on the wrong side of moral or ethical treatment in my view. But he created his own atmosphere from the start.

 

[JButera]

btw, my bad karma was a gift from Mel Kruger. If he actually read my post he would've seen the "guilt ridden" comment was meant for others and was not directed towards him, oh well. Doesn't matter anyway, his rep here as a trustworthy dealer is over.

 

[Bronx Boa]

Here's what Mel thinks about this process:

The BronX BoA

 

[bcr229]

Are you missing a screenshot? What did he want you to do before sending the pellet gun?