GeckoLabs
New member
Alright, well, I didn’t want to have to bring this to the BOI, under hopes that it would have been satisfactorily resolved, but that isn’t the case.
I am in no way posting this as a ‘Bad Guy’ post, but simply as something for future prospective buyers to be made aware of. After giving it heavy thought the last two nights from the close of our conversation, I have decided that I will be filing a PayPal dispute to get refunded, since there is no excuse as to why it was not to begin with.
Nov. 11th, I messaged Michael John of FrogNerd.com to check remaining Abronia graminea availability, after having a friend forward me his post regarding their being listed for sale.
The first message was rather late at night, but he still got back to me rather quickly, given the time, and thankfully did have 2 CBB females left available. We discussed briefly, got the invoice sent out, and paid that night, then discussed shipping.
We were aiming to ship early in the following week, but weather delayed that, with the advisories provided by SYR. After which, he took a short vacation, but informed me should there be a shipping window, his girlfriend would be able to pack and ship on his behalf.
Thanksgiving was approaching, and knowing he could easily be made right on my route to my destination or part of my return trip, I asked if he preferred the local pickup, and if it would work for him.
Originally aiming for Saturday, Nov. 28th pickup on my return trip, he said that would work well, but he wouldn’t have time to chat because he’d be getting everything taken care of prior to the White Plains show. That was fine and dandy.
A friend that was supposed to travel with me up North (whom I would have needed to drive more westbound, making Michael quite out of way) cancelled last minute, which meant I could easily pick the animals up on my trip up (Wednesday Nov. 25th) to avoid rushing him on Saturday. I asked him if that worked better, and he said it would be fine.
He handed them off in small shoebox totes so they wouldn’t be as constrained during the trip, in the event that I didn’t have housing readily available for them at my destination, which was great. For the remainder of the trip, a 40hour shipping heatpack was placed between their two totes, wrapped in a thin handtowel, to prevent from getting too warm, but to provide some warmth.
Upon arrival at my destination, they were placed in 12x12x18 exoterras, with plenty of climbing area, simple paper towel as substrate to monitor fecals, fullspectrum LED lighting along with HO UVB (Reptisun HO Light Hood to cover the enclosures.) Both females ate Thursday night, just a few mealworms and a few crickets. Both were misted twice daily. Once about an hour after lights on, and again about 30 min before lights out. Ambient room temperatures fluctuated from roughly 65-69. Day temps in the enclosures were between 75-80, and a night drop to about 65-68. Being only on paper towel, their humidity was only ranging between 40-60% through the day, obviously peaking briefly after each misting.
The return trip was Saturday, and the same situation was set up for that trip, with a 40hour heat pack wrapped in a hand towel, between their two tubs. Upon getting home, they were each placed in their enclosures, which are 24x24x14 (I think 14” is the right depth, but it might be 12”) screen enclosures. Outfitted with several live bromeliads, cork bark, pothos vines, etc. Again with the ReptiSun light hood, and a low wattage halogen bulb to maintain ambient temps.
Sunday morning, I awoke to find one of the two females dead in her enclosure.
I messaged him, with pictures.
Knowing he was likely already setting up for the White Plains expo, I wasn’t expecting immediate or prompt responses, but was hoping to get ahold of him before the show started, in the event that he had an extra female that he brought there that could have served as replacement.
He messaged me back after getting home, and was understandably rather distraught to learn of the situation. We talked through everything I did since they were in my care, which even he said was all great, that the only thing that could have been better was a slightly higher humidity level. We discussed a bit longer to try and come up with a COD, eventually leading to me dissecting the deceased. Upon opening her up, there were no gross morphological abnormalities, and nothing that indicated any pathologies. The only thing that stood out was the fact that she was in a deep shed, and was ovulating, which seemed a bit young to me (she was sold as a yearling, so she could have simply matured quickly.) The conclusion we came to was that it was likely the cocktail of the deep shed, ovulation, and overall stress.
I offered to send pictures from the dissection, to which he passed and said he trusted me. Then I didn’t hear from him for a week. During which time, my shipping money was supposed to be refunded since we had arranged the pickup, which didn’t happen until the night before last when I messaged him again informing that I was still waiting to hear back from him.
He informed me that he had decided he wouldn’t be refunding me in the situation, but likely would be had they of been shipped, in far more words, but they can be seen in the accompanying screenshots. He alluded to his “shipping details” on his website (also included in the screenshots), in that he has live arrival guarantee for shipped animals, and said that is voided if animals are picked up locally, or bought at a show (which is a statement neither disclosed to me prior to agreeing to pick up, nor found on his site.) That, coupled with the fact that he agreed that my husbandry during the trip was accurate, his statement that he would likely refund had they of been shipped, and the most likely COD we could arrive at to be a culmination of stress from travel, ovulation, and shed (which would have been equal or far worse had they of been shipped), stands well within reason that a refund should be issued.
Additionally, after other conversations had last night, it became apparent that he was also speaking of our transgressions to other parties while he was supposedly too busy to reply to my PM all week, which doesn’t sit well with me at all.
The animals were in far less stress being cared for throughout the trip than they would have been if they were slapped in a shipping box and spent the night in the dark being tossed around by fedex employees.
Yes, I also have a male, who was here prior, and was in brief contact with the females before I put them in their individual enclosures. The second female is currently doing stellar. Eating well, quite active, and drinking great. Same holds true for the male. And same holds true for the other species that accompanied me on the holiday trip, which included Uroplatus spp.
While I certainly appreciate his professionalism throughout the interaction, I do not agree with the final resolution. I understand that, yes, flukes happen. Animals do die. And as a person trying to run a business where animals are the product, those flukes need to be accounted and appropriated for.
Apologies for the long post, but I wanted to get it all in one.
I am in no way posting this as a ‘Bad Guy’ post, but simply as something for future prospective buyers to be made aware of. After giving it heavy thought the last two nights from the close of our conversation, I have decided that I will be filing a PayPal dispute to get refunded, since there is no excuse as to why it was not to begin with.
Nov. 11th, I messaged Michael John of FrogNerd.com to check remaining Abronia graminea availability, after having a friend forward me his post regarding their being listed for sale.
The first message was rather late at night, but he still got back to me rather quickly, given the time, and thankfully did have 2 CBB females left available. We discussed briefly, got the invoice sent out, and paid that night, then discussed shipping.
We were aiming to ship early in the following week, but weather delayed that, with the advisories provided by SYR. After which, he took a short vacation, but informed me should there be a shipping window, his girlfriend would be able to pack and ship on his behalf.
Thanksgiving was approaching, and knowing he could easily be made right on my route to my destination or part of my return trip, I asked if he preferred the local pickup, and if it would work for him.
Originally aiming for Saturday, Nov. 28th pickup on my return trip, he said that would work well, but he wouldn’t have time to chat because he’d be getting everything taken care of prior to the White Plains show. That was fine and dandy.
A friend that was supposed to travel with me up North (whom I would have needed to drive more westbound, making Michael quite out of way) cancelled last minute, which meant I could easily pick the animals up on my trip up (Wednesday Nov. 25th) to avoid rushing him on Saturday. I asked him if that worked better, and he said it would be fine.
He handed them off in small shoebox totes so they wouldn’t be as constrained during the trip, in the event that I didn’t have housing readily available for them at my destination, which was great. For the remainder of the trip, a 40hour shipping heatpack was placed between their two totes, wrapped in a thin handtowel, to prevent from getting too warm, but to provide some warmth.
Upon arrival at my destination, they were placed in 12x12x18 exoterras, with plenty of climbing area, simple paper towel as substrate to monitor fecals, fullspectrum LED lighting along with HO UVB (Reptisun HO Light Hood to cover the enclosures.) Both females ate Thursday night, just a few mealworms and a few crickets. Both were misted twice daily. Once about an hour after lights on, and again about 30 min before lights out. Ambient room temperatures fluctuated from roughly 65-69. Day temps in the enclosures were between 75-80, and a night drop to about 65-68. Being only on paper towel, their humidity was only ranging between 40-60% through the day, obviously peaking briefly after each misting.
The return trip was Saturday, and the same situation was set up for that trip, with a 40hour heat pack wrapped in a hand towel, between their two tubs. Upon getting home, they were each placed in their enclosures, which are 24x24x14 (I think 14” is the right depth, but it might be 12”) screen enclosures. Outfitted with several live bromeliads, cork bark, pothos vines, etc. Again with the ReptiSun light hood, and a low wattage halogen bulb to maintain ambient temps.
Sunday morning, I awoke to find one of the two females dead in her enclosure.
I messaged him, with pictures.
Knowing he was likely already setting up for the White Plains expo, I wasn’t expecting immediate or prompt responses, but was hoping to get ahold of him before the show started, in the event that he had an extra female that he brought there that could have served as replacement.
He messaged me back after getting home, and was understandably rather distraught to learn of the situation. We talked through everything I did since they were in my care, which even he said was all great, that the only thing that could have been better was a slightly higher humidity level. We discussed a bit longer to try and come up with a COD, eventually leading to me dissecting the deceased. Upon opening her up, there were no gross morphological abnormalities, and nothing that indicated any pathologies. The only thing that stood out was the fact that she was in a deep shed, and was ovulating, which seemed a bit young to me (she was sold as a yearling, so she could have simply matured quickly.) The conclusion we came to was that it was likely the cocktail of the deep shed, ovulation, and overall stress.
I offered to send pictures from the dissection, to which he passed and said he trusted me. Then I didn’t hear from him for a week. During which time, my shipping money was supposed to be refunded since we had arranged the pickup, which didn’t happen until the night before last when I messaged him again informing that I was still waiting to hear back from him.
He informed me that he had decided he wouldn’t be refunding me in the situation, but likely would be had they of been shipped, in far more words, but they can be seen in the accompanying screenshots. He alluded to his “shipping details” on his website (also included in the screenshots), in that he has live arrival guarantee for shipped animals, and said that is voided if animals are picked up locally, or bought at a show (which is a statement neither disclosed to me prior to agreeing to pick up, nor found on his site.) That, coupled with the fact that he agreed that my husbandry during the trip was accurate, his statement that he would likely refund had they of been shipped, and the most likely COD we could arrive at to be a culmination of stress from travel, ovulation, and shed (which would have been equal or far worse had they of been shipped), stands well within reason that a refund should be issued.
Additionally, after other conversations had last night, it became apparent that he was also speaking of our transgressions to other parties while he was supposedly too busy to reply to my PM all week, which doesn’t sit well with me at all.
The animals were in far less stress being cared for throughout the trip than they would have been if they were slapped in a shipping box and spent the night in the dark being tossed around by fedex employees.
Yes, I also have a male, who was here prior, and was in brief contact with the females before I put them in their individual enclosures. The second female is currently doing stellar. Eating well, quite active, and drinking great. Same holds true for the male. And same holds true for the other species that accompanied me on the holiday trip, which included Uroplatus spp.
While I certainly appreciate his professionalism throughout the interaction, I do not agree with the final resolution. I understand that, yes, flukes happen. Animals do die. And as a person trying to run a business where animals are the product, those flukes need to be accounted and appropriated for.
Apologies for the long post, but I wanted to get it all in one.
