Info Cautionary thread- Michael John (Frognerd.com)

[Mistyck]

RE: Chalking it up to my error-
Had it of been directly and blatantly my error, I would. As I've stated, repeatedly, I place no direct blame on the seller. There is no way of knowing when an animal may have issues if there are no symptoms.

You don't want to say it's your error but you're very willing to say that it's the sellers error and are also willing to say that he should offer you a refund. So who is right here, and does it really matter at this point?

Even if he had shipped the animals and you had had them in your care for 2 days afterwards he technically wouldn't have to give you a refund because he offers a "Live Arrival Guarantee" and nothing past that. Though in his words he did say that he would have been more "LIKELY" to give a refund had they been shipped; but that again does not guarantee that he would have given you one then either.

Sometimes animals die, no matter how we try to ensure that things are perfect for them. And that's what it seems happened here. That lizard could have lived for an additional 3 weeks (or more) and then died. Would you still be placing blame on the seller and wanting a refund then? Or would you say, "Oh, I guess it was just meant to be...?" If you did nothing wrong, and the seller did nothing wrong then why do you still feel a need to get a refund? As I said before it would be a nice gesture for the seller to give a partial good-faith refund, but technically it is not necessary.

 

[Lucille]

RE: Brief contact with male-
While I situated their enclosures and snapped a small number of pics was the only time they were together. None of them showed any aggression toward one another (all were in my line of sight the entire time.)

This continues to bother me. Not only because one is supposed to quarantine new critters, but because taking the risk ( of disease or adverse events) for a photo op or the minimal time to set up enclosures, was unnecessary, especially when you imply that one of your critters was ill. I would think in such circumstance quarantine would become even more important.

I also need to schedule a follow up for one of our crested geckos that was on antibiotics.

 

[GeckoLabs]

I wasn't aware the content was no longer available on my page? It still shows on my Instagram feed, which is where the post was posted through, then edited on the facebook post. . . so that was in no way trying to hide anything, and the a thread on another forum containing the same picture was also shared through TheReptileReport.

And yes, I am happy with the second female. She's been doing great. Had this of ended differently I very likely would have been inquiring about more next season.

No, had the female of passed after an extended period of time, even had it of been into this week, I would chalk it up to either something underlying going on that was missed/overlooked, or something regarding husbandry. The minute period elapsed between receipt and decease was a large factor in my decision to post this after talking with Michael and thinking it over.


The crested that was on antibiotics has been off of them for a few weeks, and was never anywhere near the Abronia.

And to note, since I hadn't yet done so, and have been thinking of everything from all angles since posting, I did decide to not file a dispute. Relative to the market for the animals, I had purchased both for roughly the average of market value for an individual, which I was willing to pay to begin with.

The situation definitely sucks for myself and for Michael, as he was also rather distraught to learn it had passed.
There was a lot regarding the situation that could have been done differently. I could have picked them up on my return trip, Michael could have likewise suggested me to do so, I could have not let any direct contact occur between the three specimens, etc.

In the end, I always do everything I can to ensure my customers are happy, but am also rather selective in who I actually sell to, and it's never a problem. Through making efforts to be considerate and save us both the stress of shipping, and him the cost of a box, and being rushed, I expected consideration in return. Won't be doing that again.

 

[CwnAnnwn]

In the end, I always do everything I can to ensure my customers are happy, but am also rather selective in who I actually sell to, and it's never a problem. Through making efforts to be considerate and save us both the stress of shipping, and him the cost of a box, and being rushed, I expected consideration in return. Won't be doing that again.

But that is the exact problem, Mr. Damuth.

Your terms and conditions are no better then the sellers in this matter.

Guarantee

Live arrival is guaranteed for all animals unless the animal is potentially ovulating/gravid, in which case the customer will be forewarned.

The live arrival guarantee will be voided if no one is available to receive the package.

If your animal has a rapid decline in health following shipment, compensation may be awarded on a case-by-case basis, depending on situation and living conditions on the customer's end.

*Animals dead on arrival require immediate photo evidence and email to inform us of the incident.*



Sex of animals are guaranteed unless sold as unsexed, "probable" or "temperature sexed." Incorrectly sexed animals can be returned (shipping at buyers expense) for full refund, credit or replacement.



All known genetic information, regardless of chance of being present, will be listed for all animals. Animals listed as 'possible het' are not

guaranteed to carry the recessive trait.

On a flat reading of your conditions from your facebook page which you updated Oct 30, it seems you would have denied refund to him, if the circumstances where reversed.

She was ovulating, either of you knew that, but it is a condition.

And transporting and setting up twice,r as you admitted was a mistake, seems to violate your own TOS.

I get a little worried when you admit it was not the fault of the seller, but yet, your own TOS would have put you in the right in his case.

I just want to point his out, because after reading your TOS and your last post, it almost came off as being dishonest. I know you are a good person, just not coming off that way.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

What is up with the sexing guarantee? I agree with all of that section except the shipping at buyer's expense part for correcting an error the seller would be responsible for.

 

[Kristi23]

What is up with the sexing guarantee? I agree with all of that section except the shipping at buyer's expense part for correcting an error the seller would be responsible for.

Temp sex animals are too young to sex. I don't guarantee the sex for temp sex either. I don't know any leopard gecko breeder that does. They are priced cheaper for that reason.

 

[Kristi23]

Temp sex animals are too young to sex. I don't guarantee the sex for temp sex either. I don't know any leopard gecko breeder that does. They are priced cheaper for that reason.

I just realized you meant the shipping back part. Sorry.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Yeah, I agree with that and have the same operative style with my own sales (temp-sexed and probable males/females not being guaranteed regarding sex unless I say so). I am talking about an incorrectly labeled sex by the seller and then the buyer having to pay the shipment back for the seller's mistake.

 

[Kristi23]

Yeah, I agree with that and have the same operative style with my own sales (temp-sexed and probable males/females not being guaranteed regarding sex unless I say so). I am talking about an incorrectly labeled sex by the seller and then the buyer having to pay the shipment back for the seller's mistake.

That I understand. I would first offer a partial refund if they want to keep it. Otherwise I would have them send it back at my expense since I made the mistake. Dillon is a very honest seller, so I'm not quite sure why he has it set up that way.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

That I understand. I would first offer a partial refund if they want to keep it. Otherwise I would have them send it back at my expense since I made the mistake. Dillon is a very honest seller, so I'm not quite sure why he has it set up that way.

Your decision tree for that is well-aligned with my own.

 

[GeckoLabs]

But that is the exact problem, Mr. Damuth.

Your terms and conditions are no better then the sellers in this matter.



On a flat reading of your conditions from your facebook page which you updated Oct 30, it seems you would have denied refund to him, if the circumstances where reversed.

She was ovulating, either of you knew that, but it is a condition.

And transporting and setting up twice,r as you admitted was a mistake, seems to violate your own TOS.

I get a little worried when you admit it was not the fault of the seller, but yet, your own TOS would have put you in the right in his case.

I just want to point his out, because after reading your TOS and your last post, it almost came off as being dishonest. I know you are a good person, just not coming off that way.

I have my TOS that way to, like many of you, avoid having to replace blatantly negligible customers (who I do my best to avoid selling to in the first place.) If the animal dies within a day or two of arrival, I assume it to have had something underlying that was an issue to begin with and not noticed, or not manifesting, *unless* there was a case of blatant neglect by the buyer (ie- entirely incorrect husbandry, etc.)

The TOS have also been set up dealing with very hardy species (Leopards), that you essentially have to put in a decent amount of effort to end up killing. Before I end up with any of my other species available, I will likely either revamp those TOS, or make ones specific to the more delicate species, since various species do attract different crowds, and those attracted are not always competent to care for them.

In regards to this situation, if I were in the seller's shoes, I would have absolutely refunded. There was a transaction recently, that I included a female free of charge with the purchased male- the buyer contacted me frantic that she had not eaten after a few weeks had passed and that she was concerned. I explained that particular female's typical over-winter cycle/behavior, and told her that if the female should continue fasting, and as a result, end up rather malnourished, to let me know, and I would set her up with a replacement animal. And that was for a female I included free. If the buyer has a good head about them regarding the animals' care, and things just don't go well, I do my best to accommodate the buyer.

 

[GeckoLabs]

What is up with the sexing guarantee? I agree with all of that section except the shipping at buyer's expense part for correcting an error the seller would be responsible for.

That could be worded better, thanks for pointing that out. I received animals I actually paid a fairly pretty penny for that ended up incorrectly sexed, but 'he' even had me fooled for a good two months until I noticed ovulation starting. Some, but not many, end up being rather tricky. In that event, then I would send a replacement animal, as long as the original animal were returned. I would pay the shipping for the replacement, that way it nets out. In most cases, I would likely just let them keep the originally shipped animal as well.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

That could be worded better, thanks for pointing that out. I received animals I actually paid a fairly pretty penny for that ended up incorrectly sexed, but 'he' even had me fooled for a good two months until I noticed ovulation starting. Some, but not many, end up being rather tricky. In that event, then I would send a replacement animal, as long as the original animal were returned. I would pay the shipping for the replacement, that way it nets out. In most cases, I would likely just let them keep the originally shipped animal as well.

I know that pain. For the species I work with, the revelation of an error can take years.

I would pay for shipment back to me and offer either replacement with me paying shipping to the customer or refund of original total purchase + shipping costs both ways. I see no reason for the buyer to have to pay anything to receive a replacement or return the incorrectly sexed animal.

Making the customer pay for shipping back does not net out by my math. If I am not eating the cost of my mistake, then the customer is and I believe the customer should not have to pay for my sexing mistake on an animal they bought as being of a fully defined sex.

 

[GeckoLabs]

I know that pain. For the species I work with, the revelation of an error can take years.

I would pay for shipment back to me and offer either replacement with me paying shipping to the customer or refund of original total purchase + shipping costs both ways. I see no reason for the buyer to have to pay anything to receive a replacement or return the incorrectly sexed animal.

Making the customer pay for shipping back does not net out by my math. If I am not eating the cost of my mistake, then the customer is and I believe the customer should not have to pay for my sexing mistake on an animal they bought as being of a fully defined sex.

I agree in most cases, and that is why I also usually do not ship most of my animals until they're well past the point where they're sexable, as well. Not only for that purpose, but to better choose holdback animals.

I agree that in the case of a blatant and avoidable mis-sexing, then I wouldn't be having the customers paying for that mistake.

If it were the case that I were unsure of an animal, I always disclose that, and either wait it out with the animal here, unless the customer doesn't definitively care which sex it ends up. In the event that it were a blatant sexing error, the way I look at it is there are a few potential scenarios-
1) The customer has the space to keep that animal there and could use it, so I offer them to keep it and get another sent out.

2) The customer is severely limited on space, and can't allot the space to keep the animal, and only has the space for the animal of the desired sex, in which case, I would take the animal back and send a replacement.

The latter is the last resort, to me, for various reasons, which is why I have it worded as customer paying return shipping. Though, since I converse frequently with most of my customers, I would nearly always work something out with them, including and not limiting to covering the return cost.

 

[LauraB]

... but 'he' even had me fooled for a good two months until I noticed ovulation starting.

When did you notice ovulation? How long did you possess that girl before she died? What timeline am I missing here?

That statement seems to contradict your original post where you claimed surprise at seeing ovulation when you opened her up after death.

I've got no dog in this fight, but I honestly cannot see where the seller is at fault. I do commend you, Gecko Labs, for your professional attitude, however, others are correct relative to your own TOS as well as the fact that you actually picked up the animals, had the opportunity to inspect them then and there (and yes, "it was dark" doesn't cut it from a professional, sorry), you accepted them and then subjected them to transport in your possession.

 

[Pasodama]

When did you notice ovulation? How long did you possess that girl before she died? What timeline am I missing here?

That statement seems to contradict your original post where you claimed surprise at seeing ovulation when you opened her up after death.

Two different female critters.
Where the OP states having noticed ovulation, after two months (of having what was supposed to be a male), is a different female critter than the female Abronia graminea, of this thread, that passed away.

....

 

[LauraB]

Ah, okay! Thanks, Deb. I had a feeling I was missing something, lol.