Bad Guy Chris Maynard [email protected] Bad Customer

[Black Adder]

He told me in the Email when I sent him the ad of #1 snake that that was the one I was getting. Later I found out he lyed. He would not sell me #1 even though it was listed on Kingsnake and Fauna.Also the original ad I responded to was a nicer one still and was listed for $500. He agreed to $400 shipped and two hours later backed out and tried to sell me only a lower quality one cause I asked if we could add a female to the deal.Later I offered the Full $500 but he refused.When I learned he was only interested in selling me his poorest one I asked for my money back .He said he couldnt cause he bought rats with it and it would be 2 1/2 weeks before he could pay me back.

So why have we not seen THAT particular email you are now referring to?
Please post that email as well or it is just talk
Thank you

 

[chrismaynard]

Its not an email it was an ad I responded to. He took it down.

 

[CraftingDreams]

He told me in the Email when I sent him the ad of #1 snake that that was the one I was getting. Later I found out he lyed. He would not sell me #1 even though it was listed on Kingsnake and Fauna.Also the original ad I responded to was a nicer one still and was listed for $500. He agreed to $400 shipped and two hours later backed out and tried to sell me only a lower quality one cause I asked if we could add a female to the deal.Later I offered the Full $500 but he refused.When I learned he was only interested in selling me his poorest one I asked for my money back .He said he couldnt cause he bought rats with it and it would be 2 1/2 weeks before he could pay me back.

Its not an email it was an ad I responded to. He took it down.

Ok, I might be new here, but not new to business and there is something that is bothering me about this whole thing..

Besides the fact that you just said it was in an email, I remember him saying #1 was NOT available, and you responding that You NEEDED it.

Towards the end, you threatened him unless he refunded your money OR, gave you #1 snake.. the one he TOLD you was NOT available because it was going to his daughter. Now, correct me if I am wrong, but this looks like blackmail to me..

From: chris maynard
Date: 12/15/2015 8:11:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Message about Male Ghost 100% het Moonglow 1 from [email protected]

Im not playing games either I get my money or #1 Snake By thurs or im gonna give you what you deserve . + If I dont get my Snake im doing it anyways You have me ******** off to no end.

That is NOT ok... he made it clear THAT sake (the one you are throwing a fit about) was NO longer available, and that he had only ONE male left.. you agreed.. you were too busy trying to jew him down to care... and then you want to threaten that if he didn't give you the one that was NOT available as he stated, you were going to report him?

I in NO way agree that any money should have been spent before the buyer received the items... and both parties were at fault, but this is a pet peeve of mine.. blackmail, no matter how small it is, is still blackmail.. and that to me is what makes someone a BAD buyer.. *smh*

Sorry to the admin for opening my mouth, but it was really eating at me..

 

[CraftingDreams]

I want to add one more thing (and not sure how to edit yet..lol)

Lets not look at the claim the add wouldn't stop.. lets just say the add was fine... what if that #1 snake was sold minutes before this guy emailed him, already paid for and all..... what is the difference between that happening and the add not being able to be stopped... he said it was not available.. If that is the case, then it is what it is... the only reason this guy is going off like this because .. like he said, he NEEDS that one snake.. it seems to be the ONLY snake he can us apparently, and despite it being the daughters snake, he wants it NOW..and is threatening the seller to get him to take it from the daughter...

 

[Fangthane]

jew him down

Nice. So-called blackmail is out, but racial epithets are fine. Good to know.

I think this situation is still convoluted enough that it's a bit premature to say that the "fit" he was throwing was unjustified. If he sincerely believed that there was a bait and switch going on - since we now know that there was a third Ghost in the mix (didn't the seller claim to only have 2?) it's not out of the realm of possibility - I can't really hold his being pissed off against him all that much. If he originally wanted snake A; subsequently agreed to buy snake B; later realized that seller intended to send him snake C, he's got a legitimate gripe.

Someone with more patience than I currently have to offer, really needs to go through this debacle with a fine-tooth comb and sort it all out. Maybe something's missing; maybe we're just not fully understanding the only involved person who seems interested enough to continue to come here and at least try to explain things - the buyer. Are we to the point yet where the seller's absence is becoming conspicuous?

Maybe I'm seeing it as more of a gray area than others would, but if the seller actually had tried to slip a second substitution by him, I don't know that I'd see it as particularly out of line if the buyer offered the option of fully satisfying him by sending the original snake he'd inquired about in order to avoid a BOI thread that might otherwise be deserved. It's not as if he'd asked for anything more than what he originally wanted when he initially contacted the seller. If he'd said he wanted the "daughter's" snake and his money back, then it would undoubtedly be blackmail.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

If I were making this deal, it seems very obvious that the first snake mentioned wasn't available. The OP's first message said "I don't have that one, this is the only one I have available" with a pic of the available snake. Chris responds saying "OK I'll take that one for $425," sends the money, then sees another snake he likes more (maybe it was cheaper). Suddenly he pretends that he didn't know what snake he was getting and demands a refund and tries to play it off like it's a scam.

Either Chris is really dumb or he's trying really hard to pretend he is. Maybe a combination. The OP shouldn't have spent the money until the snakes were shipped and received safely, but the buyer agreed to a purchase. I don't care if he found something else he wanted, he already bought this one and needs to honor the agreement; not play it off like he didn't know what he was getting.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

===============================
From: chris maynard <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2015 4:09 PM
To: chris maynard
Subject: Re: Message about Male Ghost 100% het Moonglow from [email protected]

When are you going to put my funds back on my card ? I see another one on Kingsnake that I want to get!

For those of you who missed this. He just saw a different one he wanted instead so decided to back out of the deal, then played it off like he didn't know what he was getting. Bad buyer.

 

[zovick]

Where did you find the email you quoted in post #67, Nick? It seems to be missing in post #32 which I thought was stated to be "all the emails" between these two. No emails are shown in that post between 8:11 AM and 4:56 PM. The email you quoted from 4:09 PM does weaken the buyer's case considerably IMHO since he had already been told the advertised snake wasn't going to be available AND had then agreed to accept a different one AND even sent the money after that agreement on price was made between them.

I do have another question or two for the seller. Why would you bother to advertise a particular snake and then tell interested buyers it belonged to your daughter and you could not sell it? If truly not a "bait and switch" situation, then it seems as though "seller's remorse" could be at play and you simply couldn't bring yourself to part with the advertised snake the buyer had first wanted. How old is the daughter who supposedly "owns" this snake? That statement just doesn't ring true at all to me.

 

[zovick]

Typo in times of emails I stated above. Should read "between 8:21 AM and 4:56 PM".

WHZ

 

[CraftingDreams]

Fangthange,

Sorry about that.. not something I normally use, and there really was no excuse for it... it was late, and there are times I am tired and aggravated.. and my husband comes out of my mouth.. my apologies..

From: chris maynard
Date: 12/15/2015 8:11:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Message about Male Ghost 100% het Moonglow 1 from [email protected]

Im not playing games either I get my money or #1 Snake By thurs or im gonna give you what you deserve . + If I dont get my Snake im doing it anyways You have me ******** off to no end.

No, its still blackmail....he is saying if he doesn't get that snake, he is still doing it anyway... so even if seller refunded the money right then, he would have still done it because he didn't get snake 1, which he was informed was not available..

As far as the snake he saw when he wanted his refund.. its possible that is where the buyers remorse came in... he saw another snake and contacted seller to cancel the deal so he could go buy that one... but unless we had a third person here saying, he contacted me on xyz about this snake wanting to purchase, and xyz was RIGHT before he pulled out of the deal with Seller #1... we wont know.. we can only assume. Until that happens, all you have is someone who pulled out of a deal, and while waiting for a response/refund, was looking through adds, and found something else...

===============================
From: chris maynard <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2015 4:09 PM
To: chris maynard
Subject: Re: Message about Male Ghost 100% het Moonglow from [email protected]

When are you going to put my funds back on my card ? I see another one on Kingsnake that I want to get!

Seems to be on page 4... but out of place.. since page 5 has all emails from Dec 15th. I should be inserted between sellers email and the email where he is demanding the money and or #1 snake...

 

[CraftingDreams]

I do have another question or two for the seller. Why would you bother to advertise a particular snake and then tell interested buyers it belonged to your daughter and you could not sell it? If truly not a "bait and switch" situation, then it seems as though "seller's remorse" could be at play and you simply couldn't bring yourself to part with the advertised snake the buyer had first wanted. How old is the daughter who supposedly "owns" this snake? That statement just doesn't ring true at all to me.

Zovick, a bait and switch would be where the seller agreed to send him snake #1 and actually sent him a different snake. But seller started off by telling him #1 wasn't available. Not sure the daughters age is relevant here.. had someone just purchased the snake minutes before this buyer made contact and the add didn't get removed yet, it would have been the same situation....if snake #1 wasn't available, and seller stated this right at the start, then its not available... Who got the snake doesn't really matter...

I use to breed sugar gliders.. and I sold online, as well as. If someone was at my home.. be it looking at the gliders, or a family member visiting and looking, and they took one I had listed, then its no longer available. I might not have time to get to the computer the second its given or sold. If someone emails me during this process, I have to tell them when I sit down and open the email, that the glider in question is no longer available... regardless of if it was sold or I gave it as a gift to someone. Not available is just that.. Seller claimed that he had issues with the add. I don't know how the adds work where he listed them... I make my own sites when I do business so I have full control over listings and updates so there is no issues like this.. either way, I the seller told him right away that snake #1 was NOT available... so there was no bait and switch...

Grant it, some people leave adds up of multiple items so that if people call for xyz, they are told its not available, but abc is. Its then up to the buyer to make the decision to move on or buy abc... While I say an issue like that looks a bit shady... there are people who use it as advertising... to get people in to see what they actually have.. Kmart hardly EVER has the item I want that's advertised on sale... its either sold out, OR, there have been times the store didn't get the shipment. They still advertise it though.

 

[zovick]

I have been buying and selling various animals for over 60 years personally, and I have encountered many schemers in that amount of time. I think you are giving the seller way too much credit here, Lisa, plus your initial explanation of bait and switch tactics is not the only way a switch can be accomplished. Here is a quote from the Wikipedia definition:

"The intention of the bait-and-switch is to encourage purchases of substituted goods, making consumers satisfied with the available stock offered, as an alternative to a disappointment or inconvenience of acquiring no goods (or bait) at all...."

As you said at the end of your post, interest is aroused via an ad, then when the consumer (buyer) responds to the ad, he/she is told the advertised item is gone (sold out, etc.) and another item is offered in its stead. This is exactly what happened. In a retail store setting, this is actually considered to be a fraudulent practice.

I also find it extremely puzzling that a 49 year old seller who is able to place these ads is not able to remove them for several days when his item is sold. Come on.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

Where did you find the email you quoted in post #67, Nick? It seems to be missing in post #32 which I thought was stated to be "all the emails" between these two. No emails are shown in that post between 8:11 AM and 4:56 PM. The email you quoted from 4:09 PM does weaken the buyer's case considerably IMHO since he had already been told the advertised snake wasn't going to be available AND had then agreed to accept a different one AND even sent the money after that agreement on price was made between them.

Post #28 at the very end. I agree, that statement alone makes it pretty clear to me what's going on. He might have decided to not include that message the second time he sent his emails after he realized how obvious it made things sound.

Nothing I've seen gives me reason to believe anything except that he saw another snake he wanted instead and changed his mind. It happens, but once you agree to a purchase it's my opinion that you follow through with it.

Trying to make it out like it was a scam? Please. He knew what snake he was getting, he just decided he wanted a different one after he shopped around.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

Also, whether or not the first snake he posted was still available or not is irrelevant. Chris agreed to buy a different one, so that point is moot.

Sure, it's a little shady to post your nice snake and then tell people "actually I'm keeping it, but I have this other snake...." but it's not a scam unless you tell them that's the one they're getting and send another. Chris knew that one wasn't for sale and made an offer on a different snake, then changed his mind and demanded a refund.

 

[zovick]

No, Nick. I think you misinterpreted what I meant. I am not saying the buyer is scamming. I am basically agreeing that it seems the buyer purposely left that email about finding another snake on KS out of the chain of emails to make his case seem better to the uninformed outsiders. I don't think either of these two fellows are completely innocent here.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

Nothing I said was directed at you, I was just stating my feelings in general. I think what you're saying has some validity though; at the point where you can figure out how to post an ad, you can also figure out how to take it down or edit it.

So again, it's definitely shady, but if someone posted a nice snake and then said all they had left was a lower quality one, I would simply be disappointed an move on. It's not like you're being forced to buy from them once you send a message. The buyer's gripes, to me, seem completely unfounded.

 

[CraftingDreams]

I have been buying and selling various animals for over 60 years personally, and I have encountered many schemers in that amount of time. I think you are giving the seller way too much credit here, Lisa, plus your initial explanation of bait and switch tactics is not the only way a switch can be accomplished. Here is a quote from the Wikipedia definition:

"The intention of the bait-and-switch is to encourage purchases of substituted goods, making consumers satisfied with the available stock offered, as an alternative to a disappointment or inconvenience of acquiring no goods (or bait) at all...."

As you said at the end of your post, interest is aroused via an ad, then when the consumer (buyer) responds to the ad, he/she is told the advertised item is gone (sold out, etc.) and another item is offered in its stead. This is exactly what happened. In a retail store setting, this is actually considered to be a fraudulent practice.

I also find it extremely puzzling that a 49 year old seller who is able to place these ads is not able to remove them for several days when his item is sold. Come on.

Zovick, unless the item is in a system where if someone comes into the store to purchase it and it automatically reduces the quantity on the website, there is no real way to be ON the site removing the add the exact point in time the item is being SOLD in the store/or home. The software is expensive, and unless breeders are displayed in a retail store with a POS register, its kind of pointless and a waste of money.

If you want to come off as unprofessional and want direct customers to complain about customer service, then by all means, have your cell phone out and be ready to hit that delete button while discussing the pet with the direct customer. Do you see what Im saying?

When I sold gliders, it was a process.. it wasn't, bag the glider, take the cash and have a nice day.. I go over paper work, what the pet came with, general knowledge.. etc. While this is happening, I could be getting a few emails about the same pet.. especially since I only ever have 2 or 3 listed at any given time. When and ONLY when the person left, I would go in and remove the add. Again, I cant speak for 3rd party software and what it does, but the transaction I just described in NO way is fraudulent practice, and when it comes to someone who does it deliberate.. leaving the add up when the product is no longer available, it then becomes a matter of proving it was done to trick people.

Is it wrong when places like Kmart advertise a certain item and it isn't available? To someone who really wanted it yes.. but I don't think it is considered Fraudulent... Things sell out.. You could try to push that it's fraudulent.. but if you cant prove that they never intended to have the product they advertised in millions of flyers or on their site, then its a matter of product not making it to the store, and they help you find it elsewhere or find something of equal value. As a consumer, it sucks.. but it is what it is.. especially if the item was sold out in the store but maybe not updated on the site.. as has happened to me many times.. I choose pick up in store.. item shows there, but after the purchase, I get a call or email.. the site just wasn't updated and they sold the last one minutes before I placed my order or as I was placing it.

Does it make me mad? yes, because I then have to wait 7 business days to have the money posted back to my card. It happens.. doesn't mean people were trying to be deceptive. Its why most places will add the words in tiny print "while supplies last".. We are talking larger quantities of items though.. this was a specific snake.

My point is this.. he told the guy right away that the snake is no longer available. Its not like he posted a snake he never had to con people.. It doesn't matter who he sold it or gave it to. If it was done before the email was received, then it is what it is.. what if he had NO snakes left? Would it have made a difference? Go on Craigslist and see how many people don't remove their adds.. the items are gone, sold, etc.. but the adds remain.. Fact is, he stated it up front that it was not available, and he only had ONE male left. Buyer agreed to that male.

I am going to give you one more example of something.. a while back I responded to an add of a 36x18x12 (or 18) exo terra, and a breeding pair of leopard geckos for $75. The guy was over an hour and a half away so I told him I would take them if I could come Saturday. (my husband works 2 jobs during the week)... He agreed.. so it was a done deal.. or so I thought. The next day, I called and told him I would send the $75 to show him I was serious, and because I figured if he needed it, I wouldn't have him wait 3 days to get it. He said "oh I gave it to my nephew".... Mind you, this was less then 24 hours since the agreement was made, and I was 2 hours short of purchasing an incubator. Was I angry? You bet... and out of curiosity, my oldest daughter called to inquire about the add that night because the add was still up and he stated he sold it the day before. So he never even had the common courtesy to call me and let me know he sold it to someone else after we got off the phone... I was angry.. but what could I do.. it is what it is and the item was no longer available.. this happened 2 months ago I think it was... and the add is still up if I am not mistaken.. so it reminds me every time I go in there... Does this mean its fraudulent? No.. it means the guy breaks deals and is just too ignorant to remove the add.

In this case, reading back, it started off that the buyer saw an add that had relisted, that the seller did not even know relisted. The buyer was talking about one snake and the seller was talking about another. (Im guessing that one was listed elsewhere)... It started a misunderstanding, and even after, it was still pointed out that it was an issue with the add auto relisting when it shouldn't have, and the snake is not available. The buyer agreed to the OTHER snake before money was submitted. I wonder if he had just said it was already sold instead of saying the daughter wanted it, if this buyer would have gotten this upset and still demanded the snake.

I just realized something as well... This buyer flipped out because the money wasn't being refunded RIGHT away so he could purchase this OTHER snake he found.. Um, if he used a credit card, regardless of when the seller was refunding, he would HAVE to wait a period before it is posted back to his credit card anyway wouldn't he? he wouldn't be able to immediately purchase the other snake he found unless he had the funds already available.

Anyway, here is an idea... if someone calls to come see your animals, the day they show up, place a note on the add that says "pending sale" on the one they are coming to see, and add "will update accordingly". This way, you don't have to be online while the person is there making their decision etc, and you dont have people upset that you didn't remove the add right away.. although this wouldn't have helped in this situation, as it seems it was an auto list issue... just make sure you do everything manually and not leave it up to auto lists.

 

[zovick]

Nick, we both agree that the buyer had already decided to purchase the second snake he was offered for $425 (with a female), but upon seeing one he liked better on KS from a different seller, then attempted to force the seller (Smoky Mountain Reptiles) to either sell him the "unavailable" first snake (which he apparently still wanted more than the one he found on KS) or to let him back out of the deal altogether and issue an immediate refund so he could buy the KS advertised animal.

The tactic of threatening the seller with a BOI bad guy thread unless he complied with this request does not seem warranted in this case since he did agree to the eventual refund of the purchase money, but on the other hand, the seller should not have left his ad running with an unavailable snake pictured in it or he should have added the disclaimer: "Animal pictured is not the one for sale" to his ad immediately upon its "ownership" being turned over to his daughter (which to me is still a stretch and seems more likely to indicate seller's remorse).

 

[CraftingDreams]

===============================
From: chris maynard <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2015 4:09 PM
To: chris maynard
Subject: Re: Message about Male Ghost 100% het Moonglow from [email protected]

When are you going to put my funds back on my card ? I see another one on Kingsnake that I want to get!

This was in one set of emails, however it should have been in the second set that was posted... I think it was a matter of posting it out of order

From: chris maynard
Date: 12/15/2015 8:21:33 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Message about Male Ghost 100% het Moonglow 1 from [email protected]

I dont want that one. Refund my money or send the 1st snake.You told me it was a different on in a add and I was unclear about witch one I was getting.Do not Ship the low grade snake.
====================================

From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2015 4:56 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Message about Male Ghost 100% het Moonglow 1 from [email protected]


I just got home and was about to head to the airport hub and saw this. I have all the emails, you knew what you were buying.. but lets get beyond that.
If its a refund you want like I told you yesterday I don't have the funds available right now to do that. I get paid on the 3rd of the month you will have to wait until then
Unless I sell something else before then. I'm willing to give you a refund simply because you changed your mind. I'm not refunding the shipping charges though
Because I had already printed the label BEFORE you changed your mind. I will try to cancel this shipment and If I can I will give you these funds back to.
But its not fair for me to eat the charges because you had a change of heart.

I have a few people asking about others I have available so I don't expect it to be long before you get your money back
But you never know so at the very most it will be the 3rd

==========================================
From: chris maynard
Date: 12/15/2015 8:11:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Message about Male Ghost 100% het Moonglow 1 from [email protected]

Im not playing games either I get my money or #1 Snake By thurs or im gonna give you what you deserve . + If I dont get my Snake im doing it anyways You have me pissed off to no end.
===========================================
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2015 9:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Message about Male Ghost 100% het Moonglow 1 from [email protected]

I saved you some time and posted all our emails on fauna.

Again, while its possible he already found another snake and THEN cancelled the deal because of it.. its hard to prove, since it looks like there was an 8 hour period between him saying just refund my money, and him asking when it will be refunded because he found another snake.

 

[Lucille]

Is it wrong when places like Kmart advertise a certain item and it isn't available? To someone who really wanted it yes.. but I don't think it is considered Fraudulent...

A central point to this entire discussion is whether the seller accidentally had an ad up due to automatic re-publishing, and clearly disclosed that the advertised critter was not available, or whether this was a bait and switch. (This is more difficult than it seems, IMHO due to the buyer saying in writing that there was another critter he wanted from another vendor after paying, and due to the mounting drama of the buyer's description of the issue).


Anyway, as far as the post quoted above, (I realize this seller is not Kmart but I believe the quote should be addressed) here is what the Texas Deceptive Trade Practices Act has to say, below is one of the list of illegal practices:

Advertising goods or services with intent not to supply a reasonable expectable public demand, unless the advertisements disclosed a limitation of quantity;